Sisters speculation topic

[Aqui]

Yeah, I've lost enthusiasm for it now too. But remember. The Sisters Codex is a Beta. If it doesn't work, is not fun or just makes no sense in any practical way, we feed it back to them :)

[Mekhitar]

If seraphim superiors can take hand flamers, the stratagem will definitely see some use.

 

But unless standard flamers get a points drop, they are going to turn into a 9 point tax on a superior to unlock some +1 to wd for melta guns in conjunction with this strat. I was briefly excited that it wasn’t locked to infantry only, but the “other model” specification means that really it IS infantry only. Sadly.

 

It’s better than nothing but it’s not great. I have seen worse stratagems though so I can’t complain toooooo much, I suppose. I’m more excited by what our coming-soon previews have yet to reveal.

[Montford]

I think the strategum is fine. There have been plenty of times I could have used an improvement on wound rolls! And I typically take a 5 girls Troop squad with heavy flamer and melta, so if one of those has to kill something this is only 1 CP and quite handy. Its not like I need to build a strategy around it :)

[Ficinus]

While I'm glad that the Sisters will be getting artwork in the Vigilus book, I'm not a fan of how pointy the armour is.

 

Also, if using the stratagem on Dominions, 3 meltas, 1 flamer, 1 bolter, and Superior with combi-melta makes more sense than 4 meltas, 1 bolter, and Superior with combi-flamer. The first model you'd kill off in either squad is probably the bolter. In the first of those two load-outs, the second model you'd kill is the flamer. In the second load-out, do you kill off your leadership 8 model or a meltagun? That could be a tough choice, especially if you're looking at three or four models dead. The only thing you're giving up is the BS4+ bolter from the combi-weapon.

[Tirak]

Eh, Ryza gets this and better, their Plasma stratagem gives them +1 to wound and +1 to damage with all plasma weapons fired, and again no massivly restrictive combination weapons to be made. The maximum range of Holy Trinity is 8in because of the Flamer requirement.

[CaptainMarsh]

Sisters Strategems vis a vi the weapons were always going to be strange.

[Atrus]

What am i looking at here? Doth the faith of thine sisters wax and wane?

Hast thou armies not been neglected for so long and now a light shine upon thy forces?

If thou doth protest to an inexpensive inarguably powerful tool, thou art welcome to refrain.

As for me and my army, we shall serve the lord of mankind with melta, bolter and flamer.

[Purifying Tempest]

What am i looking at here? Doth the faith of thine sisters wax and wane?

Hast thou armies not been neglected for so long and now a light shine upon thy forces?

If thou doth protest to an inexpensive inarguably powerful tool, thou art welcome to refrain.

As for me and my army, we shall serve the lord of mankind with melta, bolter and flamer.

 

Truly cute :)  And I agree to a certain extent, but I cannot fully agree simply based off of this:

 

In the end, your sentiment is to settle with something clearly inferior (VotLW and Holy Trinity have the exact same cost and effect, just differ on the MANY conditions present in Holy Trinity) because "at least we got something, all praise our GW overlords!"  But that isn't an excuse to suffer crappy rules.  For example, I could use Veterans on a squad consisting of a single Havoc with a Lascannon and get the full potency of that Stratagem from what?  36 inches away?  48 inches?  I don't need 3 models with radically different purposes, in the same unit, firing at the same target, one of which is restricted currently to 8".

 

Again, and I cannot stress enough, I love the flavor.  I love what they're reaching for.  The two stratagems they've previewed are both amazingly flavorful, but once you get past the "wow, those are nice" and start digging into WHEN you'll use them to a meaningful effect... you really start to see how shallow they are.  The only reason I can guess these stratagems all seem to be lacking bite is because of Acts of Faith?  But as of now, they're all so wonky in range and timing that I just cannot see myself going: "Wow, that is just a generally good stratagem that I can see myself using regularly to help shape the flow of the game".  They're more "yup, stars aligned this game, I can get some mileage out of it!"  Almost like a miracle, right? :)

[CaptainMarsh]

Many of the Strategems present in Codexes tend to fall into the meh category as a general rule, either not being very good or very situational. Until we see CA and know the changes, hard to really judge the effectiveness of this. Orders and abilities may change ranges and effectiveness of flamers/meltas. This on top? Could be powerful. Unlikely that is the case, but I am withholding true judgement. 

[GodwynDi]

I like the strategy. I always run 10 girl squads with Melta and heavy flamer. Once in their ideal range this would be pretty devastating.

[Jomgor]

load 10 Dominions in a Repressor, 3 storm bolters. Withering bolter fire at +1 to wound sounds like a good way to clear out those t4 and lower hordes with surety rather than flamer randomness. Followed by a charging tank too. or like 10 seraphim doing the same, sounds scary when applied correctly. And that's with units and rules not intended to be used with the stratagem, because im pretty sure army rules will synergize with stratagems like this. Especially a strategem they advertise beforehand to increase hype.

[CaptainMarsh]

The Dominions can't use the Strategem within a transport, I do believe.

[Atrus]

I get why people are disappointed at the strats not being auto spam zomg super death killy awesomeness.

But ive always hated strats and CPs as "i win" points. When they first came out in 8th, my thought was that they were intended to be cool fluffy things that caan be used that while making some differnece, werent going to skew games. Then theyve lost their way with the codexes being released and competitive players in particular using them as crutches and anything that isnt decimating enough is hot garbage.

 

What weve seen so far fir sisters strats is how ive felt strats were meant to be. Fluffly cool that doesn't break the game.

Imo, its not that sisters need stronger strats, rather all other strats need bringing back down to earth.

 

But thats my humble opinion as a casual, borderline narrative player.

[CaptainMarsh]

This is not an either/or sort of deal. Very few strategems are, by themselves, 'game breaking' and many of those are 'game breaking' for reasons well outside of the strategem and the army that has them. Most Codexes still have a stockpile of:

1- Excellent strategems useful all the time.
2- Situational strategems that are fun but will go without use game after game.
3- Tailored for very specific playstyles/units and/or subfactions.
4- Space fillers.

Nothing is wrong with having fun situational ones like the Holy Trinity, or unit specific ones like Burning Descent. Martyrdom is a cool situational strategem as well, and Purity of Faith is also situational. All of this is fine, fluffy, and fun. But it would also be nice to have some Strategems to hang our hats on and to know, "Our CP grants us access to powerful stuff, just like everyone else."

Nothing that makes us better than them in this field, but simply stuff that makes us on par. Fun and casual can be accomplished almost regardless, especially with narrative.

[Jomgor]

They would all jump out of course so all 10 could shoot while the tank goes careening into melee

[Beams]

Honestly, sisters are pretty powerful as an index army, especially with new orders, so our strats don't have to be awesome.

[CaptainMarsh]

As someone who plays Sisters a lot, they are powerful in the way the Spanish Inquisition is powerful- no one expects them. Once they do expect the Sisters, the limited tools available to the Sisters means that a competent opponent can make life exceedingly difficult. I've gotten 2 games a week in with the Sisters since 8th dropped, sometimes less but only once or twice has a week gone by without a game. They are a very good index force, but once people know what the Sisters can do, they can more easily than other armies counter them.

Our biggest advantage in terms of placement in tournaments and amongst gaming groups has very little to do with the Sisters army itself, and more to do with it being an unexpected matchup and the players who choose to play them being hardcore badasses. If the Sisters were a top 5 played army, their win rate would crater. I guarantee it.

None of this is to say they are bad. Contrary, I think they're good. I think many armies are good, however. Most of those good armies have a wide variety of tools and ways to apply them. I just want Sisters to have a range of options and not be limited by a self-flagellating tendency towards being too humble. If you think something is too powerful, too much, over the pale? Give that feedback. But we shouldn't feel forced to accept everything and anything handed to us that isn't a straight nerf just because we're happy to have something new. 

I am excited to see the full breadth of Strategems we have. I am not concerned; I have no doubt we'll have a few really powerful strategems that are immediately beneficial to most Sisters players. Something is too much to the extent it actively ruins the experience, ala pre-nerf Agents of Vect, Order of the Companions? Report. But if I think a strategem is no good, ineffective, costs too much for what it does, etc. I am gonna report those thoughts too.
 

[ERJAK]

Best use is probably the squad of 6 dominions with 4 melta to prop up our lack luster anti tank. Going to need to math out how it compares to 5 melta.

Almost exactly the same for the melta damge, the flamer and bolter add a wound or two. Ultimately, it ends up being about the same as a reroll on a 5 melta squad.

[ERJAK]

Phone error.

[ERJAK]

They would all jump out of course so all 10 could shoot while the tank goes careening into melee

That would be a complete waste of a repressor, you'd just use a rhino instead and save 40pts. Beyond that, even with the stratagem, you'd be better off just using the current shoot out of a repressor strategy. 5 bolter girls, even with +1 to wound don't add much.The melta you have to take is also a massive waste of points. A 10 girl domi squad with 3 SB, 1CF, and 1 Melta with the strat would be very expensive and still wouldn't be great at horde clearing. You'd kill maybe 10 ork boys and only 6 or so space marines.About the same as 2 squads of SB domis only more expensive, shorter range, and costing a CP.

 

The best uses of the strat should be to buff a squad of flamer dominions, heavy flamer retributors, or inferno pistol seraphim. This would require flamers to get quite a bit cheaper (Storm bolters are hard to beat and heavy bolters work better with aof) and the seraphim superior to get a hand flamer option (2 hand flamers and 2 inferno pistols is far too bad of a combo for the strat to make up the difference).

[dracpanzer]

Filler fluff strat that will sit on the bottom of the pile in the competitive scene. Unless some drastic changes are coming to unit loadouts, weapon ranges or otherwise this strat will only be used by those players who find the old school melta hvy flamer BSS squad fills all their needs.

 

Nice to see the fluff, hope the crunchy ones don't leave us wishing we had the two strats out if CA2017 instead.

[Purifying Tempest]

My chaos pal and I play regularly, with me playing 50/50 Craftworlds and Sororitas.  When I play too much Sororitas, he can easily hone in on the few tricks I can use, and adapts to them without much discomfort.  I'm not going to say it ends the game if he shuts down a Seraphim drive-by or nabs Celestine with a lucky Helldrake or something silly, but his adjustments make the game A LOT harder for me, and can typically land him a win in what usually ends up as a competitive match.  If I play Craftworlds for awhile and get him to lapse some of those defenses against Sororitas, I can again exploit them, if only for a game or two.  Most of my Sororitas victories come in the deployment of the game, that first hit with Doms and Seraphims can be savage if someone doesn't expect it or overlooks the lines available.

 

If I allow him to get full use out of his stratagems, my game gets more and more difficult.  Psychic powers still hurt, as well, as our one two CP stratagem to counter a single power per turn is nothing more than a token defense.  Just about every army can bring both of those to bear against the Sororitas with little challenge from the Sisters.  The index was very good to the Sororitas, but they didn't dominate while MANY other factions were/are markedly worse while in their Index state or even at their Codex level.  And I hate to say it, but it really is just a gimmick force that can be countered by a smart player.  Once our one-two of fast closing and acts of faith are taken away or neutralized, there's not a lot left to fall back on.

 

I'm really not trying to come off as being doom-and-gloom, because it isn't all bad.  Heck, everything I've seen so far has fallen squarely into that "average strat that can be good in the right scenario, but requires too much forcing to get regular usage out of... thus becomes the first thing I remember I should have done in hindsight" category.  Heck, I even play Bloody Rose and went... "that's fine" for the order trait.  Again, nothing bad, but I don't think I'd be missing out on much if I managed to forget it more often than not.  Not like my Seraphim were going to punch that Leman Russ any better at 4 STR.  Though I do find it funny that my Bloody Rose/Catachan army will pop as hard as Space Marines in close combat, virtually across the board.

 

The best part of all of this, though, is that we have almost a year of feedback before the codex gets released for realsies, so plenty of time to comment and suggest.  Point out the obvious flaws (hey, Veterans of the Long War is just the same thing as Holy Trinity, without the destructive limitations, for the same CP... or... Burning Descent is amazing... except EVERY SPECIAL WEAPON IN THE SQUAD IS OUT OF RANGE! >.< ... for 2 CP).

 

It is weird, though, seems people are a bit gun shy to say: hey, I want a little more than what's been developed, here's a little criticism, GW... especially when GW said: "hey, it is a beta product, criticize it all you want, we want to hear it!"

[ERJAK]

My chaos pal and I play regularly, with me playing 50/50 Craftworlds and Sororitas.  When I play too much Sororitas, he can easily hone in on the few tricks I can use, and adapts to them without much discomfort.  I'm not going to say it ends the game if he shuts down a Seraphim drive-by or nabs Celestine with a lucky Helldrake or something silly, but his adjustments make the game A LOT harder for me, and can typically land him a win in what usually ends up as a competitive match.  If I play Craftworlds for awhile and get him to lapse some of those defenses against Sororitas, I can again exploit them, if only for a game or two.  Most of my Sororitas victories come in the deployment of the game, that first hit with Doms and Seraphims can be savage if someone doesn't expect it or overlooks the lines available.

 

If I allow him to get full use out of his stratagems, my game gets more and more difficult.  Psychic powers still hurt, as well, as our one two CP stratagem to counter a single power per turn is nothing more than a token defense.  Just about every army can bring both of those to bear against the Sororitas with little challenge from the Sisters.  The index was very good to the Sororitas, but they didn't dominate while MANY other factions were/are markedly worse while in their Index state or even at their Codex level.  And I hate to say it, but it really is just a gimmick force that can be countered by a smart player.  Once our one-two of fast closing and acts of faith are taken away or neutralized, there's not a lot left to fall back on.

 

I'm really not trying to come off as being doom-and-gloom, because it isn't all bad.  Heck, everything I've seen so far has fallen squarely into that "average strat that can be good in the right scenario, but requires too much forcing to get regular usage out of... thus becomes the first thing I remember I should have done in hindsight" category.  Heck, I even play Bloody Rose and went... "that's fine" for the order trait.  Again, nothing bad, but I don't think I'd be missing out on much if I managed to forget it more often than not.  Not like my Seraphim were going to punch that Leman Russ any better at 4 STR.  Though I do find it funny that my Bloody Rose/Catachan army will pop as hard as Space Marines in close combat, virtually across the board.

 

The best part of all of this, though, is that we have almost a year of feedback before the codex gets released for realsies, so plenty of time to comment and suggest.  Point out the obvious flaws (hey, Veterans of the Long War is just the same thing as Holy Trinity, without the destructive limitations, for the same CP... or... Burning Descent is amazing... except EVERY SPECIAL WEAPON IN THE SQUAD IS OUT OF RANGE! >.< ... for 2 CP).

 

It is weird, though, seems people are a bit gun shy to say: hey, I want a little more than what's been developed, here's a little criticism, GW... especially when GW said: "hey, it is a beta product, criticize it all you want, we want to hear it!"

This is exactly why allies are so critical to SoB success in tournament settings(where players are more likely to have experience against them). Your typical 3 dominions and friends list core ends up at right around 1300pts, which leaves plenty of room for things like Knights, guard detachments, Custodes Jetbikes, grey knights should they ever become strong enough to bother bringing, and other things that either make it so your list functions far differently than what your opponent expects it to (Guard/BA/GK/DA) or makes it so that the things they need to do to counter your dominions leave them in a truly terrible position against your allies(Custode Jet bikes, Knights).

 

Hopefully the new codex, and later models, will give SoB the tools they need to succeed without 700pts of crutch, but who knows. I think the first thing I want is for each weapon the dominion squad can bring to get it's own datasheet so you can bring meltas AND stormbolters again.

[Montford]

So much negativity over the revealed stratagem. Its situational certainly, but still I think I'll use it at least once every game because it is useful. I'm sure there'll be times that one of my Troops squads will be near something that I really want to put wounds into. That new strategem they just revealed means that a Troops squad can shoot into anything T7, T6 or T5 and wound it on a 4. Nice! And so will a flamer. Normal charge plasma on a 2 or 3. A melta on a 2. Most vehicles are T7, so picture your opponent's face when his tank gets wiped in one shooting phase by a basic Troop of Sisters   And even if that does not kill it, it's going to know its been kissed!

 

Anything at all in the game, with this strat, the basic boltgun or flamer Sisters will wound on at least 5. Who is going to expect boltgum armed troops to be able to wound a Knight on a 5? That will be a few wounds he did not count on when he pushed forward into your lines.

[Mekhitar]

I don’t know. If you have to build your army with a stratagem in mind in order to make it work... it’s really not a good strat. But we were bound to get a few meh choices, and both Purity of Faith and Martyrdom were pretty stellar, so I cannot complain too hard. Okay, I can, but I only will a little. ;)

 

When do you reckon we might hear more about Sisters? A week from tomorrow? If CA really does come out on the 15th/16th... or am I hoping for too much?