Combating Knights with Ultramarines

[Captain Idaho]

Prot opened the flood gates on this one - Knights changing the balance of the system (meta if you like that term).

 

Yes, how's it going to change how we build our "take all comers" lists.

 

So how are we going to defeat Knights lists going forward? What about armies that have a single Knight?

 

Let's discuss it.

[justicarius6]

Single knights I'd prioritise first turn with my anti-vehicle weaponry, you want to at least drop their effectiveness by lowering stats if not outright killing them turn 1.

 

Full knight lists. Still scratching my head on that one, but they'll usually struggle to control objectives (especially if you focus their diddy knights and support elements first) so there's always trying to outscore but it does make for a miserable game of hide and seek in the end.

[Panzer]

Well I'm a BA player, not a UM player, but I think the list building would be rather similar. Single knights you can take out rather easily with anti-tank stuff like Lascannons (kill shot preds anyone?), thunderhammers and stuff.

Knight armies however I'd try to play the objective game. It'll be a tough matchup since the Knights damage output is easily enough to kill marines but they also don't have any ObSec apart from that one relic which anyone will take I bet. So my tactic there would be "more Scouts".

Tacticals and Intercessors will die just as fast against Knights so you gonna need numbers and ObSec will make sure that if even one of them survives you'll get the objective. It also lets you put your objective grabbers into Cover/out of LoS and on Objectives before the first round begins which should help a lot as well. On top of that they can carry Heavy Bolter which can support your anti-tank weapons thanks to the Mortal Wound Stratagem.

 

I fear Marine lists will just get further pushed into "Scouts + anti-tank" lists for a while.

[Ishagu]

Knights have hurt my Ultras significantly by simply altering the meta.

 

I run multiple T8 units with lots of wounds, and most opponents build towards killing Knights so my list had resilience.

 

Now people will bring a lot more anti tank. Bye, Bye Repulsors.

 

 

Edit: Typo

[StraightSilver]

The list I've been running for most of my games has 15 las cannons in it..... Knights don't tend to scare me at the moment although that may change a fair bit when the new Codex drops.

However in the current meta I do struggle against horde/chaff armies and super elite armies (Custodes) so hopefully this may shake things up a bit.

[Captain Idaho]

I take a generally balanced list with a slant towards shooting. I think I can cope with a single Knight but an army of them requires careful thought.

[Prot]

I know my lists right now are already different because of the codex (which isn't technically even released yet!)

 

I know this sounds greasy but I look at the single highest payout on a Mortal Wound is typically against something like a super Knight build. So the problem with Ultra specifically is finding Mortal Wound generators. (Chaos Soulburner Petards and stuff like smite lists are just really good at stuff like this... if it lives). Anywhere I can generate Mortal Wounds I would. That silly Scout squad of mine with the Heavy Bolter is looking better and better.

 

I think it's looking like maybe average vehicles are in trouble here, but maybe not? I do still think it's a 'full circle' thing like in my other thread because I think there's still a lot of value in stuff like Lascannon Devs. Space Marines in cover are still a pain to get rid of. 

 

Even a 7th edition build comes to mind: Meltaguns in a pod. lol  A one turn cannon ball.

 

Finally I think fighting fire with fire applies here. A good, solid Ultra Battalion with Knights could work very well. 

[StraightSilver]

I run a Devastator Squad with 4 las cannon and a Tactical Squad with las cannon and they are as you say great in cover - with ammo cherub, signum and captain/lieutenant bubble they are great.

I also use Sergeant Chronus in a land raider with 4 las cannons. Hitting on a 2+ whilst still moving is awesome, although he ends up with a big target painted on his side, lol, but usually survives more than long enough to make his points back

I think adding Knights to lists is maybe not the way to go - Knights in isolation are very easy to kill, however Knights in force is a scarier prospect and with the new Dominus chassis, the scenery thingy and armigers I think they are going to be challenging to say the least.

[Captain Idaho]

I consider Devastators with Missile Launchers (in need of a points drop) as more useful to a TAC list. We're bound to face a Dominus and his pals allied to Astra Millitarum for the numbers so 4D6 shots at range might help. Of course we need multiple anti tank weapons as S8 vs T8 is particularly lacklustre.

 

That's my main concern - who are the Knights allied to? Can we deal with both super heavy units and withering fire from infantry at the same time?

 

Concerning Mortal Wounds... perhaps people should evaluate Librarians with Psychic Scourge. Ultramarines Librarians get +1 to Leadership so there's a better chance of inflicting a Mortal Wound or 3 on a Knight. Add that to Smite and Hellfire Shells and we could be looking at 3D3 Mortal Wounds a turn. Even Scouts can help with one or two Mortal Wounds a turn, which has a higher return against Knights.

 

Predator Autocannons are gold for me right now. Against T8 they might not be as effective, but firing at vehicles, even flyers, with 2D3 shots and a damage 3 weapon is netting me results.

 

I doubt you'll even get a chance to but a Contemptor that gets into combat with a Knight actually inflicts 4 2+ to hit attacks at S14 and Damage 3. That could be enough to finish or seriously damage a Knight.

[StraightSilver]

I consider Devastators with Missile Launchers (in need of a points drop) as more useful to a TAC list. We're bound to face a Dominus and his pals allied to Astra Millitarum for the numbers so 4D6 shots at range might help. Of course we need multiple anti tank weapons as S8 vs T8 is particularly lacklustre.

 

That's my main concern - who are the Knights allied to? Can we deal with both super heavy units and withering fire from infantry at the same time?

 

Concerning Mortal Wounds... perhaps people should evaluate Librarians with Psychic Scourge. Ultramarines Librarians get +1 to Leadership so there's a better chance of inflicting a Mortal Wound or 3 on a Knight. Add that to Smite and Hellfire Shells and we could be looking at 3D3 Mortal Wounds a turn. Even Scouts can help with one or two Mortal Wounds a turn, which has a higher return against Knights.

 

Predator Autocannons are gold for me right now. Against T8 they might not be as effective, but firing at vehicles, even flyers, with 2D3 shots and a damage 3 weapon is netting me results.

 

I doubt you'll even get a chance to but a Contemptor that gets into combat with a Knight actually inflicts 4 2+ to hit attacks at S14 and Damage 3. That could be enough to finish or seriously damage a Knight.

I'd forgotten about Contemptors being strength 14. Play Wisdom of the Ancients on it and you're re-rolling 1s too. So pretty good chance of knocking a fair amount of wounds off. The return hits would be nasty though....

[Panzer]

 

I think it's looking like maybe average vehicles are in trouble here, but maybe not? 

 

That one will be really interesting and really depend on how well Knights can compete in objective based matches. If people stack up on anti-tank to deal with knights it will put hordes in a better place which will require people to stack up on anti-infantry to deal with those which will put average vehicles in a better place again.

 

I'm curious to see how things will balance out tho my guess is that full Knight lists won't be that competetive and AM or AdMech with one or two Knights will be the more concerning type of list to face. Both have cheap-ish infantry and cheap&durable vehicles (Onager and Russ) to offer more than just the Knights as targets for the anti-tank units.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Let's not forget, the real issue isn't number of lascannons. (Although, it's kind of a security blanket...we have very few Lascannon platforms that a group knights can't degrade or outright kill.)

 

Against Ultramarines, knights have exactly two stratgems: Rotate Ion Shields, and Oathbreaker Guidance System. Space Marine heroes are not impressive at all without saving throws. Doubly so with d6 damage that wounds on 2. Triply without FNP (except one relic).

 

How good is your army without bubbles? How killy is your list with the combat characters removed? Sure, it's not a 100% to just everything, but they can't even hide from it. A SM army without officers won't last long at all.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually Ultramarines, with Scions of Guilliman and Wisdom of the Ancients, are quite resilient to that trick.

 

I imagine a Knight player will be quite frustrated launching those missiles at us. A Terminator Captain is unlikely to be taken out in a single turn (3+, 2+ then 6) so an Apothecary be useful here. Multiple successful hits, other ways of getting rerolls of ones... we're quite resilient.

[Panzer]

Honestly, just keep your important characters out of line of sight so the IK player has to burn through his CP, hope for low damage rolls and maybe keep an Apothecary nearby. Keeping them for a while in transports helps too.

It's not like they can spam those missiles so they're rather prone to bad rolls. If I were the IK player I'd love to be able to replace all of those missiles with the turrets (the way it's worded both Knights have to keep a minimum of one hardpoint with two missiles).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Knights have hurt my Ultras significantly by simply altering the meta.

 

I run multiple T8 units with lots of wounds, and most opponents build towards killing horses so my list had resilience.

 

Now people will bring a lot more anti tank. Bye, Bye Repulsors.

 

This makes me a sad panda . ':(

[Cruor Vault]

A leviathan with Dual Storm Cannons 3x Hunter Killers and Captain/LT re-rolls is good for ~14 wounds in a single turn against knights.  Thats not too shabby considering the Leviathan is tougher than a knight (especially if Tiggy is nearby).

 

I'm starting to think a Grav Bombard in place of one of the Storm Cannons might not be a bad idea with Knights inbound!

[Aothaine]

A Terminator Assault Squad could be really decent here. It can deep strike on it's own with at least 11 thunder hammer attacks on the turn it gets into combat and the entire squad has a 3++ save. so.. .maybe do this?

 

 

Librarian in Terminator Armor (Veil of Time & Null Zone & Smite)

 

Terminator Assault Squad (5-man) (Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields)

Reivers (5-man grav chute) (Mainly for the flash bang to prevent overwatch)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Castellan has a mega flamer - he will smoke a squad of terminators on overwatch.

[Captain Idaho]

I think, Strategically speaking, devising a way to multi charge a Valiant would be best. Throwing an untouched Rhino into him might work since it wounds on a 5+. It needs 5 wounds to kill the Rhino so it could work. Then hammer a counter assault into the thing, preferably from a Contemptor AND a Terminator squad.

 

Terminators going it alone is a risky endeavour even when not soaking that Valiant Overwatch. Stomp attacks are horrific.

 

***

 

Been thinking about Masterful Marksmanship on Sternguard. Might be a little way to plink wounds off an opponent, especially the little Knights.

 

Not as a deliberate counter but alongside a Take All Comers list. You can hit a Knight with a Hellfire Round, Psychic Smite and Scourge, put all your smaller arms into it and concentrate fire with the Sternguard as well.

 

Your heavy weapons can concentrate on another target for annihilation so essentially you can put the hurt on 2 targets at the same time.

[Panzer]

I think, Strategically speaking, devising a way to multi charge a Valiant would be best. Throwing an untouched Rhino into him might work since it wounds on a 5+. It needs 5 wounds to kill the Rhino so it could work. Then hammer a counter assault into the thing, preferably from a Contemptor AND a Terminator squad.

 

Terminators going it alone is a risky endeavour even when not soaking that Valiant Overwatch. Stomp attacks are horrific.

 

***

 

Been thinking about Masterful Marksmanship on Sternguard. Might be a little way to plink wounds off an opponent, especially the little Knights.

 

Not as a deliberate counter but alongside a Take All Comers list. You can hit a Knight with a Hellfire Round, Psychic Smite and Scourge, put all your smaller arms into it and concentrate fire with the Sternguard as well.

 

Your heavy weapons can concentrate on another target for annihilation so essentially you can put the hurt on 2 targets at the same time.

 

The Valiants flamer wounds the Rhino on a 4+ tho and statistically that's 5.25 wounds on overwatch. Luckily the Rhino still has a 5+ save against it so 3.5 wounds get through on average resulting in 7 damage for the Rhino.

So yeah a Rhino barely survives the charge if it was at full health before. However there are also 2d3 shots from the Siegebreaker Cannon. More likely 4d3 since I bet most people will replace one of the missile hardpoints with the cannons. Those cannons wound on 4+, leave a 4+ save and do 1d3 damage. And then there's still the Harpoon as well. Means even at full health there's a decent chance the Valiant will simply destroy the Rhino in Overwatch and don't even think about charging one once he lost a few wounds already lol

[Captain Idaho]

Of course yes it's risky. But I think most of us would rather try a Rhino charging before throwing Terminators at it.

[Panzer]

Of course. The flamer alone would kill 3.5 Terminators in Overwatch lol (2.33 with Stormshields)

Maybe charging the Valiant is simply no option for Marines unless they have something to ignore Overwatch (like the BA relic jump pack).

[CCE1981]

The problem with facing Imperial Knights is that you will face 3 knights and 1-2 command point batteries. Playing around with Knight list building and I am building three knights, each are characters with relics, 30 guardsman, 15 scions with plasmaguns, a Tempestus Commander, Psyker, and two Commanders. That’s 10 Command points to spend on some very terrifying Strategems. Trying to come up with a list to beat that in theory crafting is difficult at best, everything can deal with one Knight but not 3!

[justicarius6]

The problem with facing Imperial Knights is that you will face 3 knights and 1-2 command point batteries. Playing around with Knight list building and I am building three knights, each are characters with relics, 30 guardsman, 15 scions with plasmaguns, a Tempestus Commander, Psyker, and two Commanders. That’s 10 Command points to spend on some very terrifying Strategems. Trying to come up with a list to beat that in theory crafting is difficult at best, everything can deal with one Knight but not 3!

That's a list that's also a good all-comers list. Trying to beat that with a Space Marine all-comers list, never mind one specifically tailored against it, is practically impossible I think.

[Aothaine]

The Castellan has a mega flamer - he will smoke a squad of terminators on overwatch.

 

Hmmm.... ohhh shoot. I thought the shock grenades would affect the IK. They don't. 

 

Perhaps ramming speed is what is needed after all? Problem is you need to make sure it is dead when you assault it and the Ultramarines are more focused on short/mid-range firepower. It is not a bad thing I suppose. I think shooting them down is going to be the best approach then. 

 

Ally in some Tempestus command squads yourself with melta guns. Or if you want to stick with marines you could go with three squads of company veterans?

 

Total Points: 451 (PL 34)

 

[HQ] Captain - 93 (PL 5)

- Combi-Melta, Chainsword

 

[E] Company Veterans (3-man) - 91 (PL 8)

- Meltagun x2, Combi-melta x1

 

[E] Company Veterans (3-man) - 91 (PL 8)

- Meltagun x2, Combi-melta x1

 

[E] Company Veterans (3-man) - 91 (PL 8)

- Meltagun x2, Combi-melta x1

 

Drop Pod - 85 (PL 5)

- Storm Bolter

 

10 meltagun shots within 12" that drop on turn two to hit the Valiant. The guns are spread out over four separate units making the IK's guns less effective, you get to drop an obstacle in the path of the IK so they might be out of range longer for some of their weapons with also being able to drop right next to one knight and effectively drop it without too much over-kill possibly. 

 

What do you guys think about this? Even in a 1750 point game it still leaves you plenty of points for three quad lascannon predators and plenty of troops on the battle line.

 

Edit: 10 not 11 meltagun shots :p