Combating Knights with Ultramarines

[Cruor Vault]

I think you only have 10 Meltas in that pod, not 11.

 

The math on that isn't great, just over 10 wounds once you factor in the Knight's toughness and Invulnerable save.   The same 450pts of Devastators with Lascannons + Captain would be slightly more dangerous and isn't a suicide unit.

[Aothaine]

I think you only have 10 Meltas in that pod, not 11.

 

The math on that isn't great, just over 10 wounds once you factor in the Knight's toughness and Invulnerable save.   The same 450pts of Devastators with Lascannons + Captain would be slightly more dangerous and isn't a suicide unit.

 

Yeah there were only 10 lol I realized that on the way to work and just got super busy. I was also thinking you could change it to have two vets in two of the squads to add a librarian and a lieutenant to the pod. So you can reroll 1s to wound and then smite.

 

Also want to point out that if you do this you have six units in the drop pod. It will prevent a lot of issues with the IK firepower. You can also drop the pod if the company veterans can take jump packs. That would also give the unit good movement. But you can also drop them into cover giving them a 2+.

 

I understand that this is suicide squad like but most people seem to be confounded on how to deal with IKs and other armies. A unit like this might work decently well in an all-comers list.

 

OHHH!!!!

 

How about allying in an Inquisitor or three? 

 

Terrify: WC value 6. Target a single enemy unit within 18". The unit subtracts 1 from their leadership and cannot fire overwatch.

 

Dominate: WC value 7. Targets an enemy Character within 18". You immediately take control of the enemy unit and can make a single shooting or close combat attack against their own team.

 

They are both 18" and you can hide the Inquisitors in a Land Raider or make them have terminator armor and deep strike them into good positions! ^_^

[Captain Idaho]

I've never liked sucide units but maybe there is tactical merit to such play again, like old days.

[Aothaine]

I've never liked sucide units but maybe there is tactical merit to such play again, like old days.

 

To be fair, it might not be as much of a suicide unit as some are thinking. It would depend on how you built the rest of your army. I mean... they don't even have to drop out of position. The key is just to have them show up within 12" and be protected from the initial firepower of the knights.

[CCE1981]

 

The Castellan has a mega flamer - he will smoke a squad of terminators on overwatch.

 

Hmmm.... ohhh shoot. I thought the shock grenades would affect the IK. They don't. 

 

Perhaps ramming speed is what is needed after all? Problem is you need to make sure it is dead when you assault it and the Ultramarines are more focused on short/mid-range firepower. It is not a bad thing I suppose. I think shooting them down is going to be the best approach then. 

 

Ally in some Tempestus command squads yourself with melta guns. Or if you want to stick with marines you could go with three squads of company veterans?

 

Total Points: 451 (PL 34)

 

[HQ] Captain - 93 (PL 5)

- Combi-Melta, Chainsword

 

[E] Company Veterans (3-man) - 91 (PL 8)

- Meltagun x2, Combi-melta x1

 

[E] Company Veterans (3-man) - 91 (PL 8)

- Meltagun x2, Combi-melta x1

 

[E] Company Veterans (3-man) - 91 (PL 8)

- Meltagun x2, Combi-melta x1

 

Drop Pod - 85 (PL 5)

- Storm Bolter

 

10 meltagun shots within 12" that drop on turn two to hit the Valiant. The guns are spread out over four separate units making the IK's guns less effective, you get to drop an obstacle in the path of the IK so they might be out of range longer for some of their weapons with also being able to drop right next to one knight and effectively drop it without too much over-kill possibly. 

 

What do you guys think about this? Even in a 1750 point game it still leaves you plenty of points for three quad lascannon predators and plenty of troops on the battle line.

 

Edit: 10 not 11 meltagun shots

 

This sounds impressive but the average math doesn't look like it would do what you want.  I am only getting an average of 10.5 wounds from that unit, and that is assuming you don't see the Strategem and/or Warlord Trait to increase the Knights invulnerable save.

[Panzer]

Ultimately it's just worse than some Lascannons. Wounds worse, Knights still have their 5++ against it and does the same amount of damage. Lascannons > Melta this edition. The only pro argument such a unit combo would have is that they're in reserves first so they can't get shot if you don't go first. 

[Aothaine]

Fair enough.... Still think it is better than you guys think. ^_^

[Brother Captain Ed]

I think there's a lot of unwarranted optimism here. The bottom line is that virtually any knight list will possess answers to everything in our codex, with the longevity to grind us down, and the firepower to table us in most situations.

 

This is not an "OMG, OP, plz nerf!" post, nor do I think the sky is falling. But the math is so dire that no amount of "but gameplay and dice!" can provide an out. I've not seen a single batrep yet where knights were on the backfoot in any phase (except the psychic). If they can shoot plague marines out of ruins, our devastators won't hold. If they can receive and break genestealer charges, our termies or characters won't break them. If they can tank primarchs, Guilliman won't save us.

If they can break an IG parking lot, our motorpool won't stand up to it.

 

There just isn't anything about them to reliably exploit. Honestly, this is a problem with the system. There aren't really any mechanics that create a disadvantage for fielding only a handful of monster models. But at the end of the day it's pretty dire:

They are all inherently fast, and have access to legit fast Armigers.

They are inherently tough and will shrug off most low to medium strength guns.

They are bristling with high power, high rate of fire, armor piercing, multiple damage weapons. Perfect marine killers.

They are comfortable shooting and melee and cannot be locked into one or the other.

They have to take 12ish wounds before their firepower begins to suffer and they shoot like marines until they do.

They always get +1 to go first.

They flat save 1/3-ish of your anti-tank shots.

If your devastators can see them, they can see you.

If your thunderhammers are in range, so are their feet.

If your characters are on the board at all, they are in danger.

 

All of the above makes them dangerous, even with bad dice. At most, they merely need to decide how to spend a very small CP pool. Hardly a crippling problem.

 

Imperial Knights are a "poor get poorer" release. The top armies have to have a little think and reshuffle some priorities, but the codexes who are already struggling get punched in the gut.

 

Again, the sky isn't falling and I'm not going to sell my marines, or go on about how "it's a slap in the face" or other such nonsense. But it's just irrefutable that our codex has aged 10 years in 10 months and there just isn't the resiliency, efficiency, or redundancy available to an Ultramarines player to take down an army that has it in spades.

 

"They might miss!" and "You might dodge them in your tournament!" is the only real plan available to us. And that's no plan at all.

[StraightSilver]

I'm thinking now of making my Devastator squads up to 10 man squads to give ablative wounds and possibly adding in another Las cannon Land Raider.

With Knights invariably going first I will keep the land raiders in reserves so they don't get shot off the board turn 1 and then bring them on in my first turn. They don't suffer the penalties for moving and firing and having 2 might make them survive a little longer.

However that's a lot of points and I'm still not totally convinced Land raiders are worth it but might give it a go.

I think the biggest thing Knights will shake up in the 8th edition meta is scenery.

We hear tournament players crying out for LOS blocking terrain and I have pretty much ignored it, but now maybe they have a point......?

[Panzer]

With Knights invariably going first I will keep the land raiders in reserves so they don't get shot off the board turn 1 and then bring them on in my first turn.

 

... how?

[StraightSilver]

 

With Knights invariably going first I will keep the land raiders in reserves so they don't get shot off the board turn 1 and then bring them on in my first turn.

 

... how?

 

They go into Tactical Reserves and drive on turn 1? I thought the only restriction to reserves on Turn 1 was to Deep Strikers?

 

 

[Panzer]

 

 

With Knights invariably going first I will keep the land raiders in reserves so they don't get shot off the board turn 1 and then bring them on in my first turn.

 

... how?

 

They go into Tactical Reserves and drive on turn 1? I thought the only restriction to reserves on Turn 1 was to Deep Strikers?

 

 

 

 

That's not a thing this edition. You're still thinking about 7th edition. You can only put units into reserves when they have a rule for it or when the scenario allows it. 

[StraightSilver]

 

 

 

With Knights invariably going first I will keep the land raiders in reserves so they don't get shot off the board turn 1 and then bring them on in my first turn.

 

... how?

 

They go into Tactical Reserves and drive on turn 1? I thought the only restriction to reserves on Turn 1 was to Deep Strikers?

 

 

 

 

That's not a thing this edition. You're still thinking about 7th edition. You can only put units into reserves when they have a rule for it or when the scenario allows it. 

 

That's not true. (or at least in my understanding).

 

Tactical Reserves is a rule specific to Matched Play games - Page 215 of the rule book. At least half of your army must be deployed but less than half can be held in reserves and can come on up to any point as long as it's before Turn 3 (in which case they are considered destroyed).

 

Reserves are mission specific but Tactical Reserves is a Matched Play rule that allows you to not deploy some units.

[Panzer]

Sorry but that's not how it works. It just specifies how reserves work for units that can be put into reserves but it doesn't allow a unit without such rules to be put into reserves.

[StraightSilver]

Sorry but that's not how it works. It just specifies how reserves work for units that can be put into reserves but it doesn't allow a unit without such rules to be put into reserves.

Ah bugger - so only units that can deep strike can be held in reserve?

 

For example "Jump Pack Assault" as a special rule?

 

Oops - we've been playing that totally wrong....

 

Now I've read the rule again I see your point.. I think we were still carrying over the old reserves rule and now in context it actually makes more sense.

 

No Land raiders in reserve then. At least that saves a ton of points. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Try Blood Angels since you like the time machine. :D

[Captain Idaho]

Here's a suggestion for not just Knights but every opponent:

 

Declare a charge with a unit out of sight to the Valiant (or target). Overwatch needs line of sight. It's possible to have small units or single characters hiding behind a Rhino or other vehicle and then declare a charge with that unit. Once the hidden model reaches the Valiant/target there will be no more Overwatch. At this point a Contemptor or Terminator squad can launch an attack.

 

Of course this is situational slightly and relies on having units left alive in the first place...

[CCE1981]

Here's a suggestion for not just Knights but every opponent:

 

Declare a charge with a unit out of sight to the Valiant (or target). Overwatch needs line of sight. It's possible to have small units or single characters hiding behind a Rhino or other vehicle and then declare a charge with that unit. Once the hidden model reaches the Valiant/target there will be no more Overwatch. At this point a Contemptor or Terminator squad can launch an attack.

 

Of course this is situational slightly and relies on having units left alive in the first place...

The problem is that the Valiant is so tall and wide that some piece of it will be able to see what is charging it. You need a unit that denies overwatch such as Reivers, or the Blood Angels Jump Pack Relic.

[Cruor Vault]

 

The problem is that the Valiant is so tall and wide that some piece of it will be able to see what is charging it. You need a unit that denies overwatch such as Reivers, or the Blood Angels Jump Pack Relic.

 

 

FYI: Rievers only work against infantry.

[Captain Idaho]

It's situational but a single model can hide behind terrain to charge a Valiant. Round a corner so to speak.

[Brother Captain Ed]

It's situational but a single model can hide behind terrain to charge a Valiant. Round a corner so to speak.

That is straining the word "situational" to the breaking point. I can count on one hand the number of no-LoS charges I've seen this edition.

[Panzer]

I can count quite a few more, however not against something as huge as a Knight. It's a valid concern that a Knight normally always has LoS against a charging unit. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m going to run Eisenhorn with Dominate.

[CCE1981]

 

 

The problem is that the Valiant is so tall and wide that some piece of it will be able to see what is charging it. You need a unit that denies overwatch such as Reivers, or the Blood Angels Jump Pack Relic.

 

FYI: Rievers only work against infantry.

Wasn’t reading the entry when I wrote my post. I wouldn’t use them anyways, seriously doubtful they would be able to do much against a Knight anyways.

[Captain Idaho]

Been thinking about hitting a Knight with Mortal Wounds. Hellfire Shells, used twice with the Cherub, a Librarian with Smite and Psychic Scourge, that could do 4D3 Mortal Wounds in 1 turn. If you're still alive you can cause 3D3 the turn after and so on.

 

That ignores Ion Shields and would be frustrating for a Knight player.

 

If you built 3 Vindicators then another 3D3 could be added but I wouldn't recommend Vindicators right now.

 

 

It's situational but a single model can hide behind terrain to charge a Valiant. Round a corner so to speak.

That is straining the word "situational" to the breaking point. I can count on one hand the number of no-LoS charges I've seen this edition.

It's a possibility worth mentioning that's all.