Summoning Daemons with CSM

[WarriorFish]

As I've pledged a squad of Daemonettes to Call of Chaos XI that means I'm finally plodding towards fielding my daemons as an allied force but before I can reach that goal I'd still like to get them on the table so that means summoning.

 

I'm still of the opinion that summoning is a bit rubbish for what you get. The risk of taking some MWs and having to stand still like a lemon would maybe not seem as bad if there were advantages to it, but it's basically coming in from reserve. Who knows maybe this might change in CA? Until then I'll just need to make do, as it is what it is but at least the most recent change allows you to take them as reserves in your force without breaking your Legion Trait otherwise I'd not be considering them at all

 

So with that in mind, what experiences do people have? Recommendations for builds? I have Slaanesh daemons (the old Diaz sculpts, so no Chariots) to go with my Slaanesh (EC) CSM and am considering getting some Horrors to flesh out my Thousand Sons when the time comes :)

 

My thoughts are that they can act as a reserve to commit as you'd expect, particularly once you're engaged in combat already as your Character isn't moving then. Charging in to an established combat is a good way not to eat lots of over watch too. I'm also thinking that currently it can be a bit of a slog to reach the enemy to start cutting them up, perhaps summoning some daemons can help there?

[Panzer]

I really still don't see any reason to summon Daemons as long as you can fill at least a Patrol detachment since a proper detachment will give you access to all the Stratagems, relics and loci. Unfortunately that is. I'd love if summoning were actually useful.

Charging the enemy with your character and summon next turn when you're still stuck in melee sounds good theoretically but practically you either wipe the unit you charge in the two fight phases until it's your turn again or the opponent falls back in his turn most of the time. Using the Codex: Daemon Stratagem to let them deep strike is way easier to apply.

[Doom Herald]

Honestly, unless you are dealing with the matched play rules limiting your number of dettachments or are hoping your summon will catch them unaware, a small dettachment is better for fielding the same unit. Slaanesh gets good relics and traits anyway. Add a herald and give your daemonettes advance & charge + a psychic power.

[WarriorFish]

I appreciate the responses but unfortunately they're not much help My goal is an allied detachment (and eventually a small independent army), I'm aware that a Patrol detachment is superior. What I'm after is help getting the most from them as part of a CSM detachment until that's feasible.

 

The requirement of standing still is maybe the bigger hurdle (at least earlier game?), could there be merit in keeping them to plug gaps? I've found that often one of my squads gets severely depleted after getting all the attention so ends up running around not doing much, maybe some Daemonettes could pitch in or try and take some flak once I know which squad has the bright neon light above it?

[Mekhitar]

I’ve summoned screamers and daemonettes before. Largely it’s because I have a hundred or so points, and want to toss in some daemons without going whole hog with hqs (and because I don’t have enough models for a full daemon battalion. It’s pretty fun and fluffy. Usually my sorcerers do the summoning, (or a buff chaos lord), because in the early turns they are just hanging out in their chaff bubbles dropping buffs anyway.

 

Summoning has 3 advantages - you can take just 1 of a given unit instead of “having” to take a detachment; you can decide on the fly what you want to bring in for the PL and points; and you can summon in turns 4, 5, or 6, whereas all your deepstrikes have got to come on by T3. It’s amazing what 100pts of late arrivals can do when the enemy screen and board control is completely gone.

 

Mostly though I just summon for fluff and fun.

[WarriorFish]

Thanks Mekhitar, I had completely missed you can summon after turn 3! That sounds useful to me especially as a predominantly close combat force later game can be a bit thin on the ground :P

 

I'm assuming it's a good idea to keep the squad cheap, bung in a bonus to charging and call it done?

[Backslide]

I have a large daemon collection they were my primary army in 7th. I play word bearers and was playing them long before traitor legions made summoning insane... some hilarious games

[masterstrider]

Summoning is good when used correctly. Around 250pts in a 1750-2000pt list is extremely handy.

1. Having the ability to summon a unit to reinforce a weakness on the fly is not to be underestimated.

2. Lowers your drop count, so you're more likely to get turn 1.

3. Allows you to deploy T4+, which is incredible.

4. Units are UNTARGETABLE, so cannot be killed., until they arrive

5. Can summon a big unit in the later parts of the game when it might be hard to deal with for the enemy.

6. Breaks the rule of 3.

7. Completely ignores any unit number restrictions, should your tournament include them.

 

Sure, it might cost you a few CP. But if you build your list right, it won't be a problem and you'll work around it.

[Panzer]

Summoning is good when used correctly. Around 250pts in a 1750-2000pt list is extremely handy.

1. Having the ability to summon a unit to reinforce a weakness on the fly is not to be underestimated.

2. Lowers your drop count, so you're more likely to get turn 1.

3. Allows you to deploy T4+, which is incredible.

4. Units are UNTARGETABLE, so cannot be killed., until they arrive

5. Can summon a big unit in the later parts of the game when it might be hard to deal with for the enemy.

6. Breaks the rule of 3.

7. Completely ignores any unit number restrictions, should your tournament include them.

 

Sure, it might cost you a few CP. But if you build your list right, it won't be a problem and you'll work around it.

 

Yeah but for 250p you could also just as well take a Patrol detachment with a random Herald and ~25 of Daemonettes or whatever and put it into reserves via Stratagem.

That way you have all the advantages you listed except for 2 and 3 (5 is the same as 3, 6 doesn't count for troops and 7 almost never matters either). On the other hand you'd get access to all the Daemon Stratagems, relics and loci, your Character doesn't have to be stationary and you KNOW what you get and don't have to roll for it.

 

So really the only thing I can think about why one would want to summon instead of including a small Daemon detachment is to be able to drop a unit turn 4+. However many games get decided the first 1-3 turns usually so that's a rather risky thing to plan for I'd say.

[WarriorFish]

250pts is certainly going all out on summoning, I'm interested in hearing more on how it works for you as I'd never have expected someone to use it so extensively. I'm not sure about the merits over spending those points on a Daemons Patrol detachment? Point 2 is useful, but I feel that 3 would give diminishing returns. Are you talking about your ability to go for objectives later game here?

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I would be very interested in seeing how a functional summoning army would work.

[Doom Herald]

One thing that has not been said yet is that you can summon daemons again even after they are killed. So, even with your 1 physical unit, if you put enough points aside, you can summon early game, use them to deal some damage and when they die, summon again. This works with named characters as well.

[Panzer]

Yeah but how is that different from just taking two of the same unit for the exact same points? ^^

Aside from named characters of course. Tho it should be a rather rare thing to happen that you want lose your special character early and want him in again.

[Backslide]

I have a large daemon collection they were my primary army in 7th. I play word bearers and was playing them long before traitor legions made summoning insane... some hilarious games

[Doom Herald]

Yeah but how is that different from just taking two of the same unit for the exact same points? ^^

 

Aside from named characters of course. Tho it should be a rather rare thing to happen that you want lose your special character early and want him in again.

You don't need to own two units worth of models. If you own only 1 unit of daemons, you can recycle it. It's not a min-max benefit, but it benefits your wallet if need be and means less painting. It's not huge, but I figured I would point it out.

 

As far as characters, you may not want them to die but they may die regardless, then you bring them back next turn.

[Panzer]

 

As far as characters, you may not want them to die but they may die regardless, then you bring them back next turn.

 

 

I never mentioned anything about wanting them to die. Just that it's a rather rare thing to happen considering they're protected by the character keyword. ;)