"Primarization" of Future Special Characters

[Arkangilos]

I don't understand why Mephistons condition would preclude him. It's not like they get a new body, just three extra organs?

[DutyBeforeAll]

 

Dante will become primaris because of hope. No more, no less.

 

If he survives it.. is a different question.

 

Mephiston won't.. I don't think. His body is being consumed from the inside and it's heavily implied he doesn't use apothecaries anymore (has a bunch of semi magic stuff to handle various things and his own personal sarcophagus). That being said, maybe they'll say the enhancements of the body provided from being primaris is the thing that lets his physical body be able to cope with the psychic power? We know primaris half half of the god maker working... Maybe they will go full on crazy and say it goes full power for mephiston and he does indeed become the BA mini primary equivalent that some want him to be? *shrug*.

Mephiston becomes first character Librarian Redemptor.

Mephiston becomes the first Blood Angel since the Primarch to grow wings.

[Scribe]

I don't understand why Mephistons condition would preclude him. It's not like they get a new body, just three extra organs?

 

Theories that he's somewhat ascended, and gone all Warp Entity?

[Quixus]

Also, calgar can now only go in repuleor for transport?

The flipside is that he can no longer ride in a land raider, rhino (in artificer armour), Stormraven. Storm eagle or Caestus,

[TheTrans]

Yeah the new fluff is tragic and with good ole Calgar getting upgraded thats it done for the OGmarines (in what ever time frame).

GW just needed to say 'yeah sorry... this is how big and awesome marines have always meant to be, you can buy these new big sexy MK3 plate, or terminators or what ever.. but all the rules are the same and your old marines will have rules for years to come as this is just a line refresh.. not new fluff killing off your models, but if you want, don't buy if you don't want"

I can tell you I'd be throwing money are true-scale MK3 plate or Terminators.. hand over fist... 

 

but no.... we have this new process to make the pinnacle of mass prodcued warriors...better... cos...fluff...

[Lemondish]

Here's my thoughts on the matter from elsewhere:

 

I've had a chance to consider my position and see how I feel about it.

 

I don't like Calgar being updated. The old model was great and has a fantastic pose. This is unnecessary and the writing is on the wall for Marines which I don't approve of. All my conversions I were proud of, all the army I collected and finished... All on the chopping block.

 

I'm pretty much gutted. I didn't want Primaris. I don't like how my army is being phased out as it cost me far too much money to just be "out of print". It's a cynical money grab that wasn't needed. New models can easily be produced for Classic Marines and a starter kit would make the same sales and growth.

 

What GW wanted to do is increase the size of Marines so people would think they look odd next to older models, so people will replace the older models completely.

 

Primaris are not for me. I won't be buying into it and for me at least GW has lost my sales.

I don't quite understand this perspective - I must be missing something here. I don't see how this army is out of print. The line is still massive, the rules still favour old marines above all, the fluff is still largely centred on non-Primaris, and the vast majority of the kits are still and will continue to be available for quite a long time. They even tried to make you feel better by showcasing Vanguard and Sternguard Vets alongside Primarneus Calgary. Shy of cancelling Primaris or declaring the end of the project, I'm not sure there's anything more they can do to assuage your (legitimate) fears.

 

Yeah the new fluff is tragic and with good ole Calgar getting upgraded thats it done for the OGmarines (in what ever time frame).

 

GW just needed to say 'yeah sorry... this is how big and awesome marines have always meant to be, you can buy these new big sexy MK3 plate, or terminators or what ever.. but all the rules are the same and your old marines will have rules for years to come as this is just a line refresh.. not new fluff killing off your models, but if you want, don't buy if you don't want"

 

I can tell you I'd be throwing money are true-scale MK3 plate or Terminators.. hand over fist...

 

but no.... we have this new process to make the pinnacle of mass prodcued warriors...better... cos...fluff...

Except they didn't want the rules to be the same, and rather than completely invalidate everything, they decided to add them as separate units. Far better than the alternative.

 

I don't want the rules to be the same. Marines suck, man. The whole "interchangeable wargear" across kits has produced a ridiculous amount of problems for balancing.

[Scribe]

There is no assuaging fears, because its plain as day. Primaris are the line that will move forward. People can point out the special kits, the limited edition releases, but there wont be a new box that people will be able to build into their army, in the original scale. 

 

The issue in GW's eyes, is there SHOULDNT have been any new box sets needed. The whole issue is that the Space Marine line was complete. Well that just wont do for what was by far the best selling line, so the answer?

 

Change the scale. Provide an in universe reason, and just watch the money flow.

 

Everyone looking at Primaris objectively, knows this is the case.

 

Meanwhile, I'm looking at my 20 year old box for Berzerkers, and wondering why I need to put up with a near completely garbage Chaos range, while we are on Space Marine Version 2.0...thats why I'm salty over Primaris, the stupid Loyalists get to jump the queue again, while nearly every other faction from 3rd-6th (IG, Orks, Eldar, Chaos) has to suffer for it.

[Ishagu]

I felt exactly the same as the above sentiment and what Idaho said on the prior page.

 

I came to terms with it however. I realise that the Marine line is bloated, full of legacy units and options, many of them useless.

 

GW has a no win scenario. If they phase out models people get upset. If they re-size the current line people get upset. I remember how bases caused a stir. Bases!

 

The Primaris are a fresh start. Limited now, but will grow. GW can make the line more varied and not tied to legacy options and unit designs. They can make units all fit for purpose, designed from the ground up for the modern game.

 

The lore isn't perfect, but in truth it's no more full of holes than the established stories. The models are fantastic, not every one is a direct hit but generally the look and size feels right on the tabletop next to other forces.

 

I don't believe that the Astartes line is going anywhere for a long time. Even if they phase some kits out they'll be supported by rules indefinitely. Look at AoS and how they have playable rules for armies that haven't seen a release in 10+ years!

 

Now they are updating existing characters. Some see it as a poor story addition, but if they killed off Calgar and replaced him by a new Primaris character there would be even MORE upset.

 

GW is correct, and in the long run people will adapt and accept the changes. The one great thing about Primaris currently is how cheap and easy they are to collect. I've ammased a large army at a casual rate over the last 12 months and between box sets and easy to build kits, it honestly didn't break the bank.

[Lemondish]

There is no assuaging fears, because its plain as day. Primaris are the line that will move forward. People can point out the special kits, the limited edition releases, but there wont be a new box that people will be able to build into their army, in the original scale.

 

The issue in GW's eyes, is there SHOULDNT have been any new box sets needed. The whole issue is that the Space Marine line was complete. Well that just wont do for what was by far the best selling line, so the answer?

 

Change the scale. Provide an in universe reason, and just watch the money flow.

 

Everyone looking at Primaris objectively, knows this is the case.

 

Meanwhile, I'm looking at my 20 year old box for Berzerkers, and wondering why I need to put up with a near completely garbage Chaos range, while we are on Space Marine Version 2.0...thats why I'm salty over Primaris, the stupid Loyalists get to jump the queue again, while nearly every other faction from 3rd-6th (IG, Orks, Eldar, Chaos) has to suffer for it.

I'm not sure why I should be upset that a company makes decisions to make money and continue existing. *shrug*

 

It sucks that your tastes aren't being catered to - I get it. Not sure what can be done, though.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here's my thoughts on the matter from elsewhere:

I've had a chance to consider my position and see how I feel about it.

I don't like Calgar being updated. The old model was great and has a fantastic pose. This is unnecessary and the writing is on the wall for Marines which I don't approve of. All my conversions I were proud of, all the army I collected and finished... All on the chopping block.

I'm pretty much gutted. I didn't want Primaris. I don't like how my army is being phased out as it cost me far too much money to just be "out of print". It's a cynical money grab that wasn't needed. New models can easily be produced for Classic Marines and a starter kit would make the same sales and growth.

What GW wanted to do is increase the size of Marines so people would think they look odd next to older models, so people will replace the older models completely.

Primaris are not for me. I won't be buying into it and for me at least GW has lost my sales.

It’s happened before such as when new Marine kits were released with third edition replacing the Marine kits from second edition. Does anyone still have any of the RT Marines?

[Scribe]

 

There is no assuaging fears, because its plain as day. Primaris are the line that will move forward. People can point out the special kits, the limited edition releases, but there wont be a new box that people will be able to build into their army, in the original scale.

 

The issue in GW's eyes, is there SHOULDNT have been any new box sets needed. The whole issue is that the Space Marine line was complete. Well that just wont do for what was by far the best selling line, so the answer?

 

Change the scale. Provide an in universe reason, and just watch the money flow.

 

Everyone looking at Primaris objectively, knows this is the case.

 

Meanwhile, I'm looking at my 20 year old box for Berzerkers, and wondering why I need to put up with a near completely garbage Chaos range, while we are on Space Marine Version 2.0...thats why I'm salty over Primaris, the stupid Loyalists get to jump the queue again, while nearly every other faction from 3rd-6th (IG, Orks, Eldar, Chaos) has to suffer for it.

I'm not sure why I should be upset that a company makes decisions to make money and continue existing. *shrug*

 

It sucks that your tastes aren't being catered to - I get it. Not sure what can be done, though.

 

 

Not sure what could be done? Its not that difficult.

 

Update the lines of the other races, and show some bloody respect to your customers that play things other than Loyalists?

 

Whats the date of release for...

 

Chaos Space Marines box?

Berzerkers?

Havocs?

Eldar Guardians?

 

Where are the plastic kits for...

 

Eldar Cults?

Obliterators?

 

What the hell even are...

 

Mutilators? That kit is an embarrassment.

 

What could they have done? Oh I dont know. Update the other ranges before forcing Marines 2.0 on everyone?

[Quixus]

It’s happened before such as when new Marine kits were released with third edition replacing the Marine kits from second edition. Does anyone still have any of the RT Marines?

I bet there still are a few. The difference is the old beakie uses the same rules as a marine from the newest tactical kit. Intercessors have different rules. So either GW has to continue supporting the old units or they become unplayable. And I doubt a company would pay a lot in rules writing for kits it no longer produces.

[Captain Idaho]

Classic Marines could have been remade to be bulkier like the Blackstone Fortress models. Easy enough.

 

They could also have gotten new units. All it takes is some imagination.

 

I have no problems with new things coming out or anything, moving the plot forward etc. It just isn't necessary to phase my army out to try and force me to buy new things. I won't stand for it as a consumer and I'm shocked people don't mind.

 

As for reducing the bloat - that's not happening unless GW phase things out. Which comes back to why I'm annoyed.

 

***

 

GW could eliminate this negative backlash almost completely if they just released new Classic Marines going forward. Breachers or Destroyers or something. It would assuage most fears.

 

This won't happen though. It's a board room decision and we've got as much chance of Fantasy being returned as GW NOT phasing out classic Marines.

[Robbienw]

 

Here's my thoughts on the matter from elsewhere:

I've had a chance to consider my position and see how I feel about it.

I don't like Calgar being updated. The old model was great and has a fantastic pose. This is unnecessary and the writing is on the wall for Marines which I don't approve of. All my conversions I were proud of, all the army I collected and finished... All on the chopping block.

I'm pretty much gutted. I didn't want Primaris. I don't like how my army is being phased out as it cost me far too much money to just be "out of print". It's a cynical money grab that wasn't needed. New models can easily be produced for Classic Marines and a starter kit would make the same sales and growth.

What GW wanted to do is increase the size of Marines so people would think they look odd next to older models, so people will replace the older models completely.

Primaris are not for me. I won't be buying into it and for me at least GW has lost my sales.

It’s happened before such as when new Marine kits were released with third edition replacing the Marine kits from second edition. Does anyone still have any of the RT Marines?

It’s not the same though. Previous Marine updates have produced similar looking models just improved and more detailed and/or better constructed.

 

Primaris are a sidestep to the right, they have a different design aesthetic, and they aren’t an evolution or update, they are a new species appearing out of nowhere.

 

That’s my major issue with them I really don’t like the look, they are too big, and I’m annoyed that they have stopped the updating of the remaining older normal marine kits for the time being.

 

I really wouldn’t have been bothered if they had produced upsized marine kits, as long as they didnt make them too big like Primaris. The size of the Space Marine heroes and the new chaos marines would be fine. I really don’t think there would have been as much fuss if they had done that.

[Ishagu]

Classic Marines could have been remade to be bulkier like the Blackstone Fortress models. Easy enough.

 

They could also have gotten new units. All it takes is some imagination.

 

I have no problems with new things coming out or anything, moving the plot forward etc. It just isn't necessary to phase my army out to try and force me to buy new things. I won't stand for it as a consumer and I'm shocked people don't mind.

 

As for reducing the bloat - that's not happening unless GW phase things out. Which comes back to why I'm annoyed.

 

***

 

GW could eliminate this negative backlash almost completely if they just released new Classic Marines going forward. Breachers or Destroyers or something. It would assuage most fears.

 

This won't happen though. It's a board room decision and we've got as much chance of Fantasy being returned as GW NOT phasing out classic Marines.

I agree they could have remade and updated them, but the range truly is bloated. In an attempt to cater to 15yr old design choices Marines got stuck in the past. This change will ultimately be a good thing for hobbyists and players. It's only been a year since Primaris were released.

[Robbienw]

1 year and 5 months to be precise

[TheTrans]

 

This change will ultimately be a good thing for hobbyists and players.

Hobbyists.. so people that may enjoy converting.. a lot of the newer GW kits seem to have less fun gubbinz.. and with the whole 'unless its in the box you don't get rules' isn't good for the whole travesty that is the 'primaris Lt' shenanigans... I liked being able to jig up my HQ or what not with cool stuff... its starting to get pretty limited mate. 

[Ishagu]

Converting is one aspect of the hobby. Painting, playing, collecting, lore are other aspects.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

There is no assuaging fears, because its plain as day. Primaris are the line that will move forward. People can point out the special kits, the limited edition releases, but there wont be a new box that people will be able to build into their army, in the original scale.

 

The issue in GW's eyes, is there SHOULDNT have been any new box sets needed. The whole issue is that the Space Marine line was complete. Well that just wont do for what was by far the best selling line, so the answer?

 

Change the scale. Provide an in universe reason, and just watch the money flow.

 

Everyone looking at Primaris objectively, knows this is the case.

 

Meanwhile, I'm looking at my 20 year old box for Berzerkers, and wondering why I need to put up with a near completely garbage Chaos range, while we are on Space Marine Version 2.0...thats why I'm salty over Primaris, the stupid Loyalists get to jump the queue again, while nearly every other faction from 3rd-6th (IG, Orks, Eldar, Chaos) has to suffer for it.

I'm not sure why I should be upset that a company makes decisions to make money and continue existing. *shrug*

 

It sucks that your tastes aren't being catered to - I get it. Not sure what can be done, though.

Not sure what could be done? Its not that difficult.

 

Update the lines of the other races, and show some bloody respect to your customers that play things other than Loyalists?

 

Whats the date of release for...

 

Chaos Space Marines box?

Berzerkers?

Havocs?

Eldar Guardians?

 

Where are the plastic kits for...

 

Eldar Cults?

Obliterators?

 

What the hell even are...

 

Mutilators? That kit is an embarrassment.

 

What could they have done? Oh I dont know. Update the other ranges before forcing Marines 2.0 on everyone?

I'm not going to answer you point for point because of your combative and ultimately unhelpful tone. You've already made up your mind to be pissy.

 

All I'll say is - when those armies start driving sales, you'll probably see more support.

 

They don't, so - *shrug* tough luck.

 

Classic Marines could have been remade to be bulkier like the Blackstone Fortress models. Easy enough.

 

They could also have gotten new units. All it takes is some imagination.

 

I have no problems with new things coming out or anything, moving the plot forward etc. It just isn't necessary to phase my army out to try and force me to buy new things. I won't stand for it as a consumer and I'm shocked people don't mind.

 

As for reducing the bloat - that's not happening unless GW phase things out. Which comes back to why I'm annoyed.

 

***

 

GW could eliminate this negative backlash almost completely if they just released new Classic Marines going forward. Breachers or Destroyers or something. It would assuage most fears.

 

This won't happen though. It's a board room decision and we've got as much chance of Fantasy being returned as GW NOT phasing out classic Marines.

Aside from the Primaris fluff, this is exactly what happened. Bigger, bulkier marines that make up new units.

 

I still have no idea where this idea that it's "phasing out your army" is coming from. Primaris still lack a vast majority of the units needed to field even a basic TAC list. They lack stratagem support. They just now got a special character of their own, but even then it's tied heavily to the old marines. A special character that was showcased alongside old marine units, mind you.

 

You're seeing Primaris Calgar as the end of old marines, but yet again I see it as another example of the old marines continuing on. Man do I long for a real PRIMARIS character or Chapter not tied to the lore of the past.

[Jolemai]

 

Does anyone still have any of the RT Marines?

 

 

Many of us do. In fact, I was using the Tarantula from Space Crusade in my game this evening. I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this trail of thought...?

[Scribe]

 

I'm not going to answer you point for point because of your combative and ultimately unhelpful tone. You've already made up your mind to be pissy.

 

All I'll say is - when those armies start driving sales, you'll probably see more support.

 

They don't, so - *shrug* tough luck. 

 

1. No Support

2. Weak Sales

3. Return to 1.

 

I am pissed. Have been in regards to the treatment of Chaos in this setting for...nearly 2 decades, but if you think armies that get nearly zero in terms of support are going to drive up their sales...based on what again? Seriously man. Do you think Dark Eldar had good sales before their reboot? 

 

The only person who has done anything to drive CSM sales, is ADB. GW is clueless in this regard.

[Ascanius]

WAs the upgrade of the old Astartes into Primaris realy in the codex?

I know we are in Grim Dark, but I thought it impossible for fully grown Astartes to get the new Organs.

I mean, Primaris are bigger, so did Calgar got into an incubator to get taller?

 

It's not mentioned in the codex, but I do remember GW staffers answering a question about it on a Warhammer TV livestream in the affirmative. Unfortunately, last time I checked Twitch.tv didn't have an archived copy of that video - it was back when 8th Edition launched and Primaris were new.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I'm not going to answer you point for point because of your combative and ultimately unhelpful tone. You've already made up your mind to be pissy.

 

All I'll say is - when those armies start driving sales, you'll probably see more support.

 

They don't, so - *shrug* tough luck.

1. No Support

2. Weak Sales

3. Return to 1.

 

I am pissed. Have been in regards to the treatment of Chaos in this setting for...nearly 2 decades, but if you think armies that get nearly zero in terms of support are going to drive up their sales...based on what again? Seriously man. Do you think Dark Eldar had good sales before their reboot?

 

The only person who has done anything to drive CSM sales, is ADB. GW is clueless in this regard.

But Chaos have had more brand new model releases than the whole Imperium put together in the last year or so. The Death Guard faction alone was a massive deal.

[Scribe]

Yep, and there is still a way's to go, to catch up to Loyalists. I get it, Loyalists sell, but to make a statement like 'well then sell more and you'll get support' seems awfully suspect when its a self perpetuating cycle.

[Cryptix]

And lets not forget that GW isn't maliciously trying to put down your army by not giving you new releases. Just as much as they are a company out to make money, the designers at GW are also artists driven as much by artistic motivation as any hobbyist here. Remember, part of the reason for the Primaris is that they felt the marine line was too bloated - they were tired of doing just another iteration of the same basic marine. 

 

And also, lets try not to get too heated. We're all still hobbyists, even if we're on opposite sides of an argument.

 

EDIT: That was an unfortunate typo...