"Primarization" of Future Special Characters

[Blindhamster]

It's funny. You all know the actual reason for primaris surely? it's not difficult...

 

They couldn't trademark space marine.

If they had changed the name of marines, people wouldn't have really gone along with it, there would have been uproar, it would have been a mess.

Couple that with the fact that space marines are a bit of a mess regardless, being a hugely bloated army (that spans across multiple codexes) and you can see why they thought "lets just do something different, and make that our push, we can trademark it and gradually work out more clearly defined units a bit more inline with what you see in most of the xenos armies".

I get that it sucks for people that feel their current marines are going to be invalidated.... i have something like 15k of blood angels that aren't primaris. That being said, from my point of view, i welcomed the new models and even the new identity, it was interesting and I wanted to know more.

The leader of the design studio (rules and lore side, rather than miniatures) has a 6k regular marine army as well, and he stated they aren't dropping current marines, and that it would suck. The same guy said he knows what the plans are for the next three years.

• Current marines aren't going anywhere for the foreseeable future.
• GW wanted to push the story forward
• GW wanted to actually be able to protect their IP (You can blame all the companies doing knockoffs for that).
• GW wanted to revisit the way marines work.
• GW wanted to try new things and be creative (Seriously, if you have a job where you make things, it gets old fast if you do the same thing over and over, Jervis Johnson has said as much, and he was very very pleased and excited about the stuff he had done and was doing with Primaris when I spoke to him, much more animated than I've seen him at an event in years.)
• GW wanted to do the above things and try and not take away current toys and upset people too much.
• GW could never do anything right, because the community is a large beast with conflicting desires.

[Arkangilos]

The problem with the trademarking space marines argument is that the official name, Adeptus Astartes, is trademarked. The Primaris are still space marines, and are still "guys in power armor" so there is no way that is a reason.

[Blindhamster]

The problem with the trademarking space marines argument is that the official name, Adeptus Astartes, is trademarked. The Primaris are still space marines, and are still "guys in power armor" so there is no way that is a reason.

Considering they were told space marine couldn't be trademarked, it absolutely is a part of it. Perhaps not the whole reason.

[Arkangilos]

Except that they still have "adeptus astartes" which can be. Did they redo the entire Guard range because Imperial Guard can't be trademarked? Or did they just change the name.

 

A name is literally no reason to make a whole new line up.

[Blindhamster]

Cool, we can agree to disagree. No point arguing about it. The rest of my original post stands though.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

It’s happened before such as when new Marine kits were released with third edition replacing the Marine kits from second edition. Does anyone still have any of the RT Marines?

 

I bet there still are a few. The difference is the old beakie uses the same rules as a marine from the newest tactical kit. Intercessors have different rules. So either GW has to continue supporting the old units or they become unplayable. And I doubt a company would pay a lot in rules writing for kits it no longer produces.

Space Marines used to be T3 and have a 4+ save so there have big changes to their stats in the past.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah I mean the only thing I disagreed with was that so the rest I'm all on board with you about.

[Lemondish]

Nonsense - they could trademark Astartes, and have.

 

They also changed the name of the Imperial Guard, but didn't roll out a completely new force with a special name.

 

I disagree with your take on that, but the rest of your comment is totally sound. Thanks for the background insight on them wanting to do something new with how marines play. I mean, it seemed pretty clear, but I like seeing it as part of the plan.

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

• GW wanted to revisit the way marines work.

 

 

Is this your interpretation or is that coming from GW? If the latter, what did they mean by that, specificaly.

 

I'm kind of horrified at the idea of Marines working more like Eldar. That's one of the things I hate the most about the Primaris. Tactical Squads are cool in my mind because each dude has a bit of character - the badass sergeant with his relic power sword and combi-weapon, the special dude with his flamer, the heavy with his missile launcher. Primaris are very much missing that. They literally have no soul.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

• GW wanted to revisit the way marines work.

Is this your interpretation or is that coming from GW? If the latter, what did they mean by that, specificaly.

 

I'm kind of horrified at the idea of Marines working more like Eldar. That's one of the things I hate the most about the Primaris. Tactical Squads are cool in my mind because each dude has a bit of character - the badass sergeant with his relic power sword and combi-weapon, the special dude with his flamer, the heavy with his missile launcher. Primaris are very much missing that. They literally have no soul.

I think that identity is kind of what makes Vet squads and Deathwatch special.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

• GW wanted to revisit the way marines work.

 

 

Is this your interpretation or is that coming from GW? If the latter, what did they mean by that, specificaly.

 

I'm kind of horrified at the idea of Marines working more like Eldar. That's one of the things I hate the most about the Primaris. Tactical Squads are cool in my mind because each dude has a bit of character - the badass sergeant with his relic power sword and combi-weapon, the special dude with his flamer, the heavy with his missile launcher. Primaris are very much missing that. They literally have no soul.

 

It's interpretation based on what was said during the seminar.

 

He agreed when a different person referred to the marine codex as bloated. When i asked about veteran primaris and getting more weapon options and the like he said about them going back to how they used to work where it was better stats and a different paint job rather than a host of options.

 

Combine that with the way all the primaris units are put together (fairly limited options) and it gives the feeling that they wanted to try a different approach to marines, but didn't want to impact actual current marines (for now).

 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t see how anyone is arguing with the trademarking point. It’s objectively trademarking that has been behind the changes in how the studio produces new kits and content.

[D3L]

Here's my thoughts on the matter from elsewhere:

 

I've had a chance to consider my position and see how I feel about it.

 

I don't like Calgar being updated. The old model was great and has a fantastic pose. This is unnecessary and the writing is on the wall for Marines which I don't approve of. All my conversions I were proud of, all the army I collected and finished... All on the chopping block.

 

I'm pretty much gutted. I didn't want Primaris. I don't like how my army is being phased out as it cost me far too much money to just be "out of print". It's a cynical money grab that wasn't needed. New models can easily be produced for Classic Marines and a starter kit would make the same sales and growth.

 

What GW wanted to do is increase the size of Marines so people would think they look odd next to older models, so people will replace the older models completely.

 

Primaris are not for me. I won't be buying into it and for me at least GW has lost my sales.

I concur, and so do my hobby friends

[Dracos]

 

 

I'm not going to answer you point for point because of your combative and ultimately unhelpful tone. You've already made up your mind to be pissy.

 

All I'll say is - when those armies start driving sales, you'll probably see more support.

 

They don't, so - *shrug* tough luck. 

 

1. No Support

2. Weak Sales

3. Return to 1.

 

I am pissed. Have been in regards to the treatment of Chaos in this setting for...nearly 2 decades, but if you think armies that get nearly zero in terms of support are going to drive up their sales...based on what again? Seriously man. Do you think Dark Eldar had good sales before their reboot? 

 

The only person who has done anything to drive CSM sales, is ADB. GW is clueless in this regard.

 

 

I went of a tear about the long history or abuse Vanilla (not damn Blue Boys) Space Marine Codexes have suffered over the decades I have been involved in the game compared to Chaos and Eldar .... instead I deleted it and just want to say be patient anything the Imperium has Choas eventually gets with bonuses at a pittance of points in comparison. I imagine Abbadon and his shiny new anti-Primaris unit will be following up the Worldtaker (whatever the new character for Chaos is in Vigilus) before you know it.

 

I don't hate Calgar, or any other Primaris treated characters. I do hate non-UM Chapters have always been and continue to be ignored or nerfed (see recent Raven Guard) when there was a real opportunity for DIY players to finally feel their creativity could be rewarded on the table also. It what I like about RPGs that are point buys. The customization gives an opportunity for individualization and keeps things balanced .... btw very very very fe of us refer to Astartes, its Space Marines, even Primaris are Space Marines first, Primaris Marines second ... jumping off soap box. 

[Panzer]

 

 

Dante will become primaris because of hope. No more, no less.

 

If he survives it.. is a different question.

 

Mephiston won't.. I don't think. His body is being consumed from the inside and it's heavily implied he doesn't use apothecaries anymore (has a bunch of semi magic stuff to handle various things and his own personal sarcophagus). That being said, maybe they'll say the enhancements of the body provided from being primaris is the thing that lets his physical body be able to cope with the psychic power? We know primaris half half of the god maker working... Maybe they will go full on crazy and say it goes full power for mephiston and he does indeed become the BA mini primary equivalent that some want him to be? *shrug*.

 

Exactly what I was thinking as well.

Mephiston getting the Primaris treatment is rather unlikely in-universe due his condition and out-universe not even needed due his already Custodes-like stats. However IF GW actually decides to make him have it then they could go real crazy with it. Even if he doesn't survive it they could write something up that wouldn't mean the end of him. He has two powerful souls in his body, huge psychic might and a mysterious manifestation of the Black Rage after all. 

 

 

Out-universe its definately needed because his model sorely needs to be updated in plastic

 

Which could be easily done without turning him into a Primaris. ;)

 

 

 

Dante will become primaris because of hope. No more, no less.

 

If he survives it.. is a different question.

 

Mephiston won't.. I don't think. His body is being consumed from the inside and it's heavily implied he doesn't use apothecaries anymore (has a bunch of semi magic stuff to handle various things and his own personal sarcophagus). That being said, maybe they'll say the enhancements of the body provided from being primaris is the thing that lets his physical body be able to cope with the psychic power? We know primaris half half of the god maker working... Maybe they will go full on crazy and say it goes full power for mephiston and he does indeed become the BA mini primary equivalent that some want him to be? *shrug*.

Mephiston becomes first character Librarian Redemptor.

Mephiston becomes the first Blood Angel since the Primarch to grow wings.

 

Bat-wings tho. He's 40k Dracula after all. :P

[Tokugawa]

Here's my thoughts on the matter from elsewhere:

 

I've had a chance to consider my position and see how I feel about it.

 

I don't like Calgar being updated. The old model was great and has a fantastic pose. This is unnecessary and the writing is on the wall for Marines which I don't approve of. All my conversions I were proud of, all the army I collected and finished... All on the chopping block.

 

I'm pretty much gutted. I didn't want Primaris. I don't like how my army is being phased out as it cost me far too much money to just be "out of print". It's a cynical money grab that wasn't needed. New models can easily be produced for Classic Marines and a starter kit would make the same sales and growth.

 

What GW wanted to do is increase the size of Marines so people would think they look odd next to older models, so people will replace the older models completely.

 

Primaris are not for me. I won't be buying into it and for me at least GW has lost my sales.

Look at the 8th plague marine models. Nice scale, astonishing details.

 

Black legion just receive several true-scale models this winter. WE and EC are on the horizon.

 

It is perfect time to hug Chaos.

[Scribe]

 

 

 

I'm not going to answer you point for point because of your combative and ultimately unhelpful tone. You've already made up your mind to be pissy.

 

All I'll say is - when those armies start driving sales, you'll probably see more support.

 

They don't, so - *shrug* tough luck. 

 

1. No Support

2. Weak Sales

3. Return to 1.

 

I am pissed. Have been in regards to the treatment of Chaos in this setting for...nearly 2 decades, but if you think armies that get nearly zero in terms of support are going to drive up their sales...based on what again? Seriously man. Do you think Dark Eldar had good sales before their reboot? 

 

The only person who has done anything to drive CSM sales, is ADB. GW is clueless in this regard.

 

 

I went of a tear about the long history or abuse Vanilla (not damn Blue Boys) Space Marine Codexes have suffered over the decades I have been involved in the game compared to Chaos and Eldar .... instead I deleted it and just want to say be patient anything the Imperium has Choas eventually gets with bonuses at a pittance of points in comparison. I imagine Abbadon and his shiny new anti-Primaris unit will be following up the Worldtaker (whatever the new character for Chaos is in Vigilus) before you know it.

 

 

Dude....Space Marines, by virtue of their range, have not 'suffered' compared to Chaos.

 

We had ONE good book (may 3.5 forever be hallowed) after which we had the 'dead' period where you played cookie cutter lists or you lost, followed by the 'heldrake' period and...then finally the period of Khorne Daemonkin.

 

The number of meaningful, good, flexible, codex or model releases...next to zero.

 

Thats the history of Chaos, since 3rd edition.

 

Our models are bad.

Our models are limited.

Our rules have been bland and cookie cutter, and (4th edition) lore breaking.

 

The only good lore, has come from a select few Black Library Authors (ADB mostly) and Heresy books.

 

Let us never forget, there was a period where the 3rd Company of the Imperial Fists, had more crunch diversity within its own CHAPTER, than a difference could be meaningfully made between Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

 

No faction is more important to the setting, and disrespected as much, as Chaos.

 

The Havoc's kit was a HYBRID PLASTIC METAL KIT. There have been at LEAST 2 full plastic Devastator kits.

The Raptor's kit was released with 6th. There have been MULTIPLE Assault Marine kits, and Vanguard Vets on TOP.

There has never been a Chosen Kit, unlike the Sternguard.

There is a new 'Helbrute' kit, how many Imperial Dreadnoughts? 3? 4?

There is the Heldrake. There are THREE Space Marine Flyers.

 

Space Marine codex players have suffered in comparison to Chaos?

 

I'll not hear it. 

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to answer you point for point because of your combative and ultimately unhelpful tone. You've already made up your mind to be pissy.

 

All I'll say is - when those armies start driving sales, you'll probably see more support.

 

They don't, so - *shrug* tough luck. 

 

1. No Support

2. Weak Sales

3. Return to 1.

 

I am pissed. Have been in regards to the treatment of Chaos in this setting for...nearly 2 decades, but if you think armies that get nearly zero in terms of support are going to drive up their sales...based on what again? Seriously man. Do you think Dark Eldar had good sales before their reboot? 

 

The only person who has done anything to drive CSM sales, is ADB. GW is clueless in this regard.

 

 

I went of a tear about the long history or abuse Vanilla (not damn Blue Boys) Space Marine Codexes have suffered over the decades I have been involved in the game compared to Chaos and Eldar .... instead I deleted it and just want to say be patient anything the Imperium has Choas eventually gets with bonuses at a pittance of points in comparison. I imagine Abbadon and his shiny new anti-Primaris unit will be following up the Worldtaker (whatever the new character for Chaos is in Vigilus) before you know it.

 

 

Dude....Space Marines, by virtue of their range, have not 'suffered' compared to Chaos.

 

We had ONE good book (may 3.5 forever be hallowed) after which we had the 'dead' period where you played cookie cutter lists or you lost, followed by the 'heldrake' period and...then finally the period of Khorne Daemonkin.

 

The number of meaningful, good, flexible, codex or model releases...next to zero.

 

Thats the history of Chaos, since 3rd edition.

 

Our models are bad.

Our models are limited.

Our rules have been bland and cookie cutter, and (4th edition) lore breaking.

 

The only good lore, has come from a select few Black Library Authors (ADB mostly) and Heresy books.

 

Let us never forget, there was a period where the 3rd Company of the Imperial Fists, had more crunch diversity within its own CHAPTER, than a difference could be meaningfully made between Word Bearers, and Night Lords.

 

No faction is more important to the setting, and disrespected as much, as Chaos.

 

The Havoc's kit was a HYBRID PLASTIC METAL KIT. There have been at LEAST 2 full plastic Devastator kits.

The Raptor's kit was released with 6th. There have been MULTIPLE Assault Marine kits, and Vanguard Vets on TOP.

There has never been a Chosen Kit, unlike the Sternguard.

There is a new 'Helbrute' kit, how many Imperial Dreadnoughts? 3? 4?

There is the Heldrake. There are THREE Space Marine Flyers.

 

Space Marine codex players have suffered in comparison to Chaos?

 

I'll not hear it. 

 

 

Yeah but we also have dinobots so we win. :P

In all seriousness tho, imperial Marines definitely are in a way better spot than chaos Marines when it comes to their model line. That shouldn't be news to anyone. The only ones who are about as bad off as chaos Marines would be Craftworld Eldar I think (not saying other ranges wouldn't do good with an update tho and I'm very glad we got Primaris since I didn't really like the regular Marine models all that much).

[Scribe]

Yes, the Aspect Warriors are a freaking travesty at this point, only holding up thanks to Jes and Diaz producing all of the best things GW has ever put out.

 

The Guardians are how old? I want to say 3rd Ed, with Berzerkers...

[Dracos]

In all seriousness tho, imperial Marines definitely are in a way better spot than chaos Marines when it comes to their model line. That shouldn't be news to anyone. The only ones who are about as bad off as chaos Marines would be Craftworld Eldar I think (not saying other ranges wouldn't do good with an update tho and I'm very glad we got Primaris since I didn't really like the regular Marine models all that much).

 

I wasn't trying to argue the point of models. At least the basic Troop choices which are what makes or breaks my decision for building a particular army. Chaos and Eldar both could use some love. I just don't see Vanilla Marines competing on the same tables as Chaos and Eldar in any regular fashion and when you compare basic Marine infantry, basic Marine bikes, basic Marine jump infantry, Dreadnoughts, Flyers etc Chaos always has a extra bump in ability that makes the same unit better for what two points? Add that to the fact they have two Primarchs, Demon Princes that still twist the Rule of Three and cheap battalion generating cultist, it's just a better Codex for a mono-build imo. 

 

So, I get your frustration. If they had models that were more like Primaris I'd be DIY Black Legion in a heartbeat. I could have my cake and eat it :) I honestly expect Chaos to be treated very well this coming year. 

 

I remember when the Defiler debuted. I thought Marines will never have a model that cool. And I was right ... until Bobby G came out ... sadly I'm a 20 year DIY guy that just can't bring himself to count anything UM "counts as".

 

Sorry if I stirred up anyone elses hackles. I think I've just read one or two too many "haters" on Primaris, amd considering how they perform mono-build its debilitating. Shouldn't be pushing any of that back though my apologies.

[Scribe]

KNF alone put Marines above CSM for probably a decade! :p

 

Note: My grief with Space Marines and Chaos, and GW run's almost 20 years at this point and it wont change as long as the Loyalist range is as vast as it is, while Chaos is running with kits that are literally, coming up on 20 years old.

 

I'm a bit salty over the period of time the Chaos Legions got their rules back at the end of 7th to only have them neutered with 8th as well...but oh well.

[Xisor]

I am repulsed at how lazy the story telling this is. Disgusted at the missed opportunity to add true gravitas the the story of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

<snip>

 

Just another puffing up of the Mary Sues...

 

<snip>

 

I saw a glimmer of hope for actual story telling that wasn't totally apolcolyptic but I was just deluding myself :(

Indulge me in some not-lazy story telling.

 

What do you mean by Mary Sue here? Because repulsed and disgusted is pretty hysterical language, I think I'm struggling to see your rage at the development of Calgar.

 

That is: he didn't have an apocalypse story, he had a body horror story.

 

The Ultramarines aren't by scouts, that'd be the Salamanders and their faithful devotion to humanitarianism and self-reliant skillful existence.

 

And I just don't follow the Mary Sue thing at all.

 

Marneus is a kid and a girl who's some sort of cipher for the author? Seems unlikely.

 

So, Marneus is (and the Ultramarines in general are?) a character idealised and without flaw?

 

Let me introduce Grimnar and Dante and Pedro and Shrike and Vulkan and...

 

What's the flaw of the Space Wolves and Raven Guard and Salamanders?

 

---

 

Nonsense.

 

---

 

I'm psyched about this.

 

I think over time it makes sense.

 

E.g. It was a thing suspected, but was DLC for the Primaris project, not packaged with Cawl's original release.

 

Also, given how central brain and body are for one's existence, having it rewritten or massively disrupted at Calgar's grand old age is surely a wonderful thing.

 

At least where story telling is concerned. (And ignoring story telling: a model's a model, it's either to your tastes or not, or in a nice middle ground that indulges tastes hitherto unknown. (Or less likely: dodgy enough to sour you in something you'd previously liked.))

 

What I'd like to see is some more new Characters though. That'd be lovely, in general.

 

(I think that also applies to established Chapters. Every time a well known Chapter is given page time, an equal volume of page time should look at lesser/obscure Chapters. Variety!)

[Captain Idaho]

I keep seeing people saying releasing Primaris Marines reduces bloat... how? They've just added 5 new units, 2 vehicles and about 2 dozen characters (mostly Lieutenants...) to the range.

 

If you say they're reducing bloat by getting rid of the old line then yes I agree that's what they're doing.

 

As for Primaris just being the bigger Marines... no they're too big. Look at the Chaos Marines from BSF. That's about the largest anyone thinks. Primaris models are like collecting a Fantasy Ogres army.

 

Not phasing out Marines? That's nonesense. The studio isn't going to say the truth are they as it would cause a massive backlash. And as I said, if GW wants to prove me wrong then they should release us some new Classic Marines stuff...

[Brother Christopher]

Here's my thoughts on the matter from elsewhere:

 

I've had a chance to consider my position and see how I feel about it.

 

I don't like Calgar being updated. The old model was great and has a fantastic pose. This is unnecessary and the writing is on the wall for Marines which I don't approve of. All my conversions I were proud of, all the army I collected and finished... All on the chopping block.

 

I'm pretty much gutted. I didn't want Primaris. I don't like how my army is being phased out as it cost me far too much money to just be "out of print". It's a cynical money grab that wasn't needed. New models can easily be produced for Classic Marines and a starter kit would make the same sales and growth.

 

What GW wanted to do is increase the size of Marines so people would think they look odd next to older models, so people will replace the older models completely.

 

Primaris are not for me. I won't be buying into it and for me at least GW has lost my sales.

 

Firstly, I'd like to express my gratitude for your post. Your summary of the issue echoes my own thoughts on the matter. Thank you for voicing your reflections.

 

The 'chopping block' and 'out of print' aspects are what worry me too. With GW's current policy and releases, it is difficult for me not to be sceptical and suspect that classic marines will eventually get phased out and with them the huge army I've been building for so long and have invested so much. While nothing actually will have stopped me from having an obsolete army, there is something disturbing and distasteful about the concept of having one. I personally that in their attempt to boost profits, GW has cheated me out of my money. And I am entitled to have my feelings about a product I bought... just as GW is entitled to do whatever they feel will generate the most profit.

 

What I find extremely disturbing and worrying, however, is how we hobbyists* react to whatever the company throws at us. How we get excited about new releases and forget about such fundamental things as product quality or support.

 

It is too easy to get excited about a new Ultramarines special character (like a Primarch isn't enough!) or additions to the Primaris line. However, it is somehow difficult to remember that they are a part of a larger faction and even larger game system. Primaris releases and special characters do not address current and pressing matters such as a broken Codex: some may say that this is caused by the 'bloat' (and may be right), but I am annoyed how 3/4 of the entries -- Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Drop Pods, Centurions, flyers -- are 'internally' useless and the entire Codex: Space Marines is rather disappointing and bland when compared to many other releases. But hobbyists don't seem to be bothered about this since the Ultramarines get another (supposedly) good character.

 

But instead of showing GW that we don't agree to such negligible treatment, that we'd like to get a decent product (let me remind you, that this edition was advertised as the most balanced edition of 40K ever - how is it going for you, space marines?), we get excited for another release for the loyalists and for the already bloated Space Marines range. And all of this happens with, as many of you have pointed out, old ranges of miniatures existing without an update for many years. But many people don't mind being sold a 'defective product' (lack of balanced rules for the faction) as long as it is intended for their army and (arguably) looks cool and superficially addresses what they wanted for so many years, like the Primaris do.

 

So, actually... I'm grateful to GW for their current marketing, release and sales policies/strategies - it helped me see the company and 40K for what it is and saved me some money, at the expense of a "broken heart". I really, really used to like the setting and the game. I am not that bitter, though, not to enjoy the fact that there are many of you who like the changes and new marines. What saddens is my own cynicism and the feeling I get that the years of collecting might turn out to be in vain.

 

I hope that I'm wrong and GW will sell us this time updated, balanced rules in Chapter Approved 2018, but somehow I don't think that will happen.

 

 

*By this I mean an unspecified majority of people involved in 40K who buy miniatures, play the game and voice their opinions online. I'm basing my understanding of this majority on GW's financial results and my understanding of the "community's reaction" based on posts on this forum. The majority of posters appear to be 'positive', while extremely dissatisfied voices such as Idaho's are in the minority.

[Ishagu]

I keep seeing people saying releasing Primaris Marines reduces bloat... how? They've just added 5 new units, 2 vehicles and about 2 dozen characters (mostly Lieutenants...) to the range.

 

If you say they're reducing bloat by getting rid of the old line then yes I agree that's what they're doing.

 

As for Primaris just being the bigger Marines... no they're too big. Look at the Chaos Marines from BSF. That's about the largest anyone thinks. Primaris models are like collecting a Fantasy Ogres army.

 

Not phasing out Marines? That's nonesense. The studio isn't going to say the truth are they as it would cause a massive backlash. And as I said, if GW wants to prove me wrong then they should release us some new Classic Marines stuff...

The Primaris will eventually be a seperate force and they certainly won't be bloated like the traditional Astartes line.

 

For the record, some of the reactions, outrage and hyperbole coming out of some forum members is hilarious. Get a grip people.