"Primarization" of Future Special Characters

[Blindhamster]

I... actually find this sort or sentiment pretty insulting to be honest.

 

What I find extremely disturbing and worrying, however, is how we hobbyists* react to whatever the company throws at us. How we get excited about new releases and forget about such fundamental things as product quality or support

 

I like the primaris stuff because I view them as better quality, I feel they have a sense of gravitas that the marine line has always lacked. I wholeheartedly disagree with people saying they're too large, they look spot on to me and have bulky enough armour that I can imagine an actual person inside it. I really appreciate the mkX design. I like the approach to the models and additional detail without going over the top with bling. So product quality - that's why I personally like them.

 

Product support from GW is always a short lived thing. And there is always someone that will be unhappy. It's the nature of most competitive hobbies these days. Just look at things like magic cards! But as a blood angels player, I concur that it sucks when you either don't get something or when you do it's taken away right after (this has been a rules issue for them through a lot of editions but 6th/7th were particularly bad).

 

 

Everyone has an opinion, they're all just as valid. Some people like the new stuff, some hate it and the rest are probably not too bothered one way or another. Live and let live, arguing over a forum just created negativity and animosity where it really isn't needed.

[Quixus]

The Primaris will eventually be a seperate force and they certainly won't be bloated like the traditional Astartes line.

Got any proof for that claim? What makes you think that the Primaris will be split off? Why would GW continue to support the old marines at that point?

[Ishagu]

People need to get their emotions under control. If you dislike Primaris you can ignore them. The traditional range is already the biggest of any faction.

 

The rest of us are excited for the new models, rules and designs.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= Reminder: Whilst people should never overeact or break forum rules, it's not helpful to dismiss people's concerns. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just don't want to go down a dangerous path in the topic.

 

And yes it is hilarious when people go over the top with things. I certainly won't be burning my models like that dude when Fantasy died! =][=

[Ishagu]

 

 

The Primaris will eventually be a seperate force and they certainly won't be bloated like the traditional Astartes line.

Got any proof for that claim? What makes you think that the Primaris will be split off? Why would GW continue to support the old marines at that point?

It's pretty obvious. The two types aren't even fully compatible on the battlefield and have restrictions.

 

The original Astartes will always be supported by rules. I never said they'll disappear.

[Captain Idaho]

 

 

The Primaris will eventually be a seperate force and they certainly won't be bloated like the traditional Astartes line.

Got any proof for that claim? What makes you think that the Primaris will be split off? Why would GW continue to support the old marines at that point?

It's pretty obvious. The two types aren't even fully compatible on the battlefield and have restrictions.

The original Astartes will always be supported by rules. I never said they'll disappear.

I agree that the 2 aren't compatible but there's not a chance in hell GW will maintain both lines.

[Panzer]

They'll maintain them the same way eventually they maintain Tomb Kings probably. ^^

[Ishagu]

=][= Reminder: Whilst people should never overeact or break forum rules, it's not helpful to dismiss people's concerns. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just don't want to go down a dangerous path in the topic.

 

And yes it is hilarious when people go over the top with things. I certainly won't be burning my models like that dude when Fantasy hit! =][=

I completely agree. I think this can be a civil discussion but people need to moderate their emotions and language.

 

Individuals definitely have a right to be disappointed, but how can you come on to the topic claiming to be outraged or insulted over a model line and expect a constructive argument?

 

My stance is that no matter what GW did people would be upset. I think what they've done is potentially more upsetting but it's the only way to shift the design ideology of Astartes. The traditional line are generalists, the Primaris are specialists. This is the key difference and the aspect that makes me most excited in the long run.

 

I do think that they'll maintain and rebalance the traditional Astartes for a long, long time, and even a longer time after should they discontinue the lines in the future.

[Xwingt65]

Well I guess we should just toss this outhttp://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/8/82/SMImplantsNew.jpg

You just need to add a few more steps,.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Mostly musing to myself here, but this is how I think of it.

 

I'm one of the people who liberally describe the (classic) Space Marine line as a "bloated mess" because I think it really is. It has by far the most models of any line, especially when you factor in all chapter specific upgrades and units and special characters etc. etc. The reason for this is obvious, Space Marines have by far the biggest fanbase and thus buying customers (leaving aside the more support -> more sales argument, which I think gets oversimplified when covered most of the time. For certain there is a positive correlation between two, but that's not all there is to it). Regardless, we've had decades of a GW living of selling new kits to the space marine crowd, which is why marines was the army that got new toys by far the most often. Not the greatest of decisions were made by GW in the past (or present) and a lot of them piled up in the largest model line GW has.

 

Not every new model kit sells as well as the others so there exists incentive to prune the line down, as maintaining stock of everything most likely isn't as profitable as it could be. Outright squatting things haven't really gone over well, so another approach is needed as it’s a delicate matter. The situation is anything but a simple one, and the industry usually takes years to implement changes. A new kit is usually designed years ahead and come with considerable sunk costs. We had just had renewal of pretty much all the PA range, just missing scouts and terminators. They're just getting started getting their return on investment and will continue to be produced for many years to come.

 

So how do you prune a line in the long term while at the same time introducing new things to sell their largest player base? I believe it’s this almost contradicting duality of goals which gave birth to Primaris line. While there could be other ways to do it, they seemingly address two goals:

 

* Introduce something new to players to generate cash.

* Streamline the space marine line in the very long term. 

 

Primaris also represent GW making a further effort to move away from a relic of the past, the quite outdated "heroic scale". Primaris marines Imo have the most balanced proportions of any marine ever released, and I have often argued, this is what classic marines should have looked like all along. Again, there could have been other ways to do it, but I think we can add another goal to the list:

 

* Update marines visually and introduce an-universe lore reason for the departure in look.

 

Primaris came next instead of the expected Terminator and Scout kits, which to me tells me they were probably pushed out as soon as possible and represent the new long-term goal of the SM line as decided by new leadership in GW. No new scout or terminator kits on the horizon (unless you count the space marine heroes’ line 2) and I honestly don't think there will be. Primaris is the long-term goal for 40k, while classic marines will be part of Horus Heresy and other historical battles.

 

Nothings really been phased out, beyond the mostly converted bike characters and what not, that didn't make the move from the index to the latest codex. But I imagine as time move on, more and more classic units might find themselves being supported by virtue of their existence in an index, rather than the latest codex. Eventually most if not all classic units will be found there, while the codex will be mainly be Primaris. I think this is pretty much the inevitable future, but still a distant one. 

 

Far from a comprehensive look at the matter, aimed at noone in particular. Just musing to myself.

[D3L]

 but still a distant one. 

I think that's optimistic, at best

[Blindhamster]

 

 

but still a distant one.

I think that's optimistic, at best

Depends on definition of distant.

[Brother Casman]

I'll be honest, I'm kind of two minds about this whole thing. While I don't think that we'll see the classic marines get phased out in the short term, it wouldn't surprise me to see a very different-looking space marine army in the long term. And I think I could be okay with that, assuming that I have enough time to build the army I currently envision (and actually call it "done"). I also would have been fine if GW had decided to put the Marines on the back burner for a bit, and focused more on the other forces that needed an update - I've got plenty of things to work on, after all.

 

But, at the same time, I find there's always a sense of sadness when we have a break with the past. So, much as I like the Primaris Space Marines, I also feel somewhat melancholy looking at them - they're a change in my chosen army. Things, in the long term, will be different, and that will take some time to get used to. I've been playing Space Marines for over ten years - these new boys will have to prove their worth.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'm fine with marines going on the back burner too, but not before they've seen this through. Primaris are here to stay. Characters are getting Primarized. Fill the obvious holes. Primaris Techmarines? Every other speciality marine has a Primaris equivalent. Some more vehicles wouldn't hurt either. Bikes and Speeders? Speeders at least if you wanna keep the flying/floating vehicles only thing going.

[Lemondish]

I still really want an actual Primaris character that isn't tied to the old marines and I'm eager to see if the rumours about an Ultima founding chapter showing up on Vigilus with its own special rules, characters, and fluff pans out. 

 

If the other Chapter Masters or big name HQs for other Codex chapters start getting updated, I'll be both ecstatic and sad. I want Primaris to take a step away from the old and bring something new. But at the same time, the chance that each of these guys gets their own special chapter specific honour guard (despite that being so unlikely) makes me salivate at the conversion possibilities. 

[BrotherAtrox]

I don't think I'm too bothered by mini-marines getting phased out over the next... I dunno, decade? That's a business decision that probably needed to be made some time ago and honestly the aesthetic of marines has already changed so much since even 3rd Ed that it's not running over any of my nostalgia. I'm sure over time the Primaris Astartes will get some variation in armor and a better array of unit options. That's fine.

 

My problem is the writing around it.

 

I don't know who does the fluff for the codices and campaign books - but they certainly do not put together interesting stories the way the better BL authors do. The story around Guilliman/Cawl/Primaris/etc. just felt so stilted. I've read better fan-fiction. And this is supposed to be the biggest mix-up for the setting since... arguably it's inception? I'm hoping the Emperor's Spears novel will change some of this. Right now it just feels so uninspired.

[Lemondish]

I don't think I'm too bothered by mini-marines getting phased out over the next... I dunno, decade? That's a business decision that probably needed to be made some time ago and honestly the aesthetic of marines has already changed so much since even 3rd Ed that it's not running over any of my nostalgia. I'm sure over time the Primaris Astartes will get some variation in armor and a better array of unit options. That's fine.

 

My problem is the writing around it.

 

I don't know who does the fluff for the codices and campaign books - but they certainly do not put together interesting stories the way the better BL authors do. The story around Guilliman/Cawl/Primaris/etc. just felt so stilted. I've read better fan-fiction. And this is supposed to be the biggest mix-up for the setting since... arguably it's inception? I'm hoping the Emperor's Spears novel will change some of this. Right now it just feels so uninspired.

 

Is the Emperor Spear's novel even about Primaris in any way? 

 

And I simply assumed that by the end of the novel the chapter is tragically destroyed lol

[No Foes Remain]

So this may just be me but whats stopping GW from keeping both lines? That way they get money from their bestselling line without pissing off all the old players who want to keep their Marines 1.0 and isn't really interested in Primaris.

 

Can anyone with knowledge on this subject illuminate me? I do work in retail but the bottom end so I don't really understand whats stopping them.

[Robbienw]

Nothing is stopping them doing that. That is also what they have currently stated they intend to do.

 

I think it’s just people on the internet like to make overly dramatic claims of the sky falling and then have arguments about it :lol:

[Quixus]

So this may just be me but whats stopping GW from keeping both lines? That way they get money from their bestselling line without pissing off all the old players who want to keep their Marines 1.0 and isn't really interested in Primaris.

 

Can anyone with knowledge on this subject illuminate me? I do work in retail but the bottom end so I don't really understand whats stopping them.

Well they have to have two production line for a limited number of customers. This simply is not cost effective.

[Blindhamster]

Nothing is stopping them doing that. That is also what they have currently stated they intend to do.

 

I think it’s just people on the internet like to make overly dramatic claims of the sky falling and then have arguments about it

 

pretty good summation of the situation i think

[Marshal Reinhard]

There's more to it than just keeping a line around. Do you reinvest in it? Design a new costly plastic sprue that will be used to produce a kit for over a decade? Like i said earlier, the recently redesigned classic marine kits will be kept around for a long while for them to earn back the cost of designing and producing them. I expect they'll still be produce a decade from now. But do I expect a new redesigned kit after that? No I think that'll happen in the Primaris line though.

[Ipsen]

From what i gather the important thing is the moulds they use to make the sprues.They don't last forever and they are apparently quite expensive to make. GW has set precedent for ceasing support for models they don't make anymore. If they don't think they'll get a return on a mould, like if say they had saturated the market, it makes little sense for them to make or replace them. This is likely still a ways off but this the internet, the home of speculation.

[Doghouse]

I've survived all 7 previous editions of countless changes that have been made to stat lines, models, lore and rules in general of my beloved Astartes I think I can survive this one.

 

In my day it were one box of marines and we all had t3 and armour saves of 4+ (unless you mixed in flak armour with power armour to get 3+) and we considered ourselves bloody lucky...

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

So this may just be me but whats stopping GW from keeping both lines? That way they get money from their bestselling line without pissing off all the old players who want to keep their Marines 1.0 and isn't really interested in Primaris.

 

Can anyone with knowledge on this subject illuminate me? I do work in retail but the bottom end so I don't really understand whats stopping them.

 

Nothing, and as long as they sell why wouldn't they? Old Marines still probably outsell most of the other ranges. At some point they may stop supporting them, but it will be because people stop buying them.