Captain Idaho Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Let's start the gushing over the rules we have people! This topic is to discuss all things Victrix Guard. Tactics, army composition, modelling and painting - you name it! I'll start the ball rolling... I love this Detachment already! It does several things for Ultramarines as well as the "meta" in general: Ultramarines now have serious hitting power outside heavy weapons spam. Traditionally, Marines might not have the serious threats that other factions might have so relied on attrition and objectives scoring to win the day. Now our infantry can carve a path through just about anything! Hell, even Mortarion will struggle against a Vanguard squad that gets +1 to hit and wound, rerolls 1 for a Captain and has a bunch of dual Lightning Claws! Then there's the potential for power fists and Thunder Hammers... What this does to the wider game is emphasise assault again in an army traditionally a little shooty. Now people like me who built balanced lists with close combat and battalion shooting support aren't handicapping themselves. Now they can provide a threat outside of Soup. I want to take advantage of this though so it's likely I'll be applying it to my army with some new additions. The only problem is what... more Sternguard or more Vanguard? I'm thinking the latter. Also, a full unit of Vanguard plus Captain (with whatever that sword does!) And maybe even Ancient might just make a Land Raider worthwhile again. Especially with all the points drops we all expect! *** Wish listing... a 3rd Strategum to be utilised by shooting squads (apart from Masterful Marksmanship) so Sternguard can benefit from the killing boosts their Vanguard brothers gain. Seems a little selfish at this point eh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emicus Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Not much to add tbh, personally disappointed it can't be used with my army since it's oldmarines only :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 I would love it if it works out this way Idaho. At this point I'm cautiously optimistic. Other codexes... even marine codexes to assault very well, but they may not 'gunline' as well as us. So it's still a very delicate balancing act. I think the temptation to use the Victrix will be huge, but right now I see it as biggest for Guilliman. Someone on the main forum thought it was a waste for Guilliman but I've seen Oath Breakers in action too often. The Victrix will serve a purpose there. The interesting way I was trying Guilliman at the end (with mixed results) was as a mid table advancing bowling ball. But I found I still needed to keep that balance of points, actively shooting in the backgroud. Also because of the aforementioned assault armies, I found it hard to be as good as 'them' with anything other than Guilliman. Conversely if these new strats let us increase our CC capacity I would love that. But I'm thinking the Viligus strats are only for... Vigilus? Or are they game wide? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 This is what marines needed. Being able to add 1 to hit and wound rolls is huge. My only two problems with it is that terminators can't get the victrix guard keyword (mainly because most of my veterans are terminators ), and that we are going to be veeeery command point hungry. I think a jump pack captain rolling around with some vanguard kitted out with thunder hammers and chainsword+storm shields is going to be pretty strong. *edit* I'd also like to add that this allows us to make our own "smash captain" almost equivalent to the blood angels. Although, they are able to get extra attacks out of theirs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 Not much to add tbh, personally disappointed it can't be used with my army since it's oldmarines only :( Indomintus Crusade Veterans might soften that blow somewhat. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 This is what marines needed. Being able to add 1 to hit and wound rolls is huge. My only two problems with it is that terminators can't get the victrix guard keyword (mainly because most of my veterans are terminators :P), and that we are going to be veeeery command point hungry. I think a jump pack captain rolling around with some vanguard kitted out with thunder hammers and chainsword+storm shields is going to be pretty strong. *edit* I'd also like to add that this allows us to make our own "smash captain" almost equivalent to the blood angels. Although, they are able to get extra attacks out of theirs. I agree on all points. I'm sure we will see something for Terminators in the future but waiting is frustrating for such an iconic unit. Already thinking about a new Jump Pack Captain to join Vanguard. I would love it if it works out this way Idaho. At this point I'm cautiously optimistic. *SNIP* Yes it remains to be seen and you know what 40K says about hope... As for Guilliman I've been thinking actually one of the strengths of Ultramarines is our units can operate away from the main body of the army. With +1 to hit and wound near a Captain, we can expect to do similar sort of damage as when with Guilliman whilst saving points. Of course Guilliman is amazingly powerful and if with his Victrix Guard and Victrix Honour Guard... wow. As for the Detachment I'm pretty sure they're permanent for Matched Play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 This is really great stuff for sure ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 Can someone clarify whether these Detachments can be duplicated? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnkyHamHam Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Since it's keyword CAPTAINS does that mean Sicarius can join the Vitrix? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Since it's keyword CAPTAINS does that mean Sicarius can join the Vitrix? Without being able to see the full rules we can't say for sure, but as written, yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 Yeah seems like it. And appropriate I guess. But he won't benefit from the Warlord Trait as his is "locked in" as a special character. +1 to wound is amazing. Best to take a character for that. And maybe the blade too though we don't know what it'll so yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonjacob Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I hope that their is an faq to allow named character to use specialized war Lord traits. +1 to wounds is a buff sicarius could always do with, and given he runs the victrix it would seem silly not to. either way ancient as a field commander would by pass this whole issue. I'm thinking the soldiers blade will be strength user at -4ap. no idea what the standard will do. maybe out of phase attack or double hits on 6 for shooting? the stratagem have really take my fancy. first strike > normal fight> honour the chapter or only in death does duty end. A ultramarines captain or vanguard have the potential to fight 3 in one turn! very cp heavy but possible. very excited my only concern is honour guard. index relic blade would be ideal but maybe I'm restricting my self to much with power axes because of the codex profile. how do you make them viable in a victrix? Vanguard, should they have the jump packs or spew out of a transport for easy assault capabilty? I think a storm raven might be a good option for fire power and delivery system to the heart of an army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 I very much doubt Classic Honour Guard will receive any fair tweeks unfortunately. That Sword of Soldiers Relic thing can't be merely AP-4. It's a worse Burning Blade and thus pointless. GW imply it's powerful so I have high hopes.. The Relics really interest me. If the Banner boosts shooting then it might mean I need more Sternguard as well as a 2nd Vanguard unit... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonjacob Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 the theroy came from the gathering of the storm book with the 7th ed ultramarines suppliment. It could it be a -4 ap so relic blade... In guilliman's name I hope so Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 I'd like something unique rather than a cheap Relic Blade. S+1 or 2, AP-3, D3 damage etc is cool but how about say 6s to hit generate another hit or something. Depends on where they want to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnkyHamHam Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I bet the Soldier's Blade will be something like a power sword that causes mortal wounds. I'd love it to be any hit causes a mortal wound, but that's pretty strong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonjacob Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 So I'm scratching my head over making this warlord trait work in the best way possible with vanguard. double lightning claw seem ideal solution but plasma pistol and power sword are not bad choice either. Fight like demi god though would make hammers and fist very reliable. though the +1 to wounds would be moot. Anyone got any example of load out they wish to share? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnkyHamHam Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 +1 to wound is amazing. That's the reason Smash Caps are best in Blood Angels. Combining the WL trait and Fight Like Demigods strat effectively gives a unit the chapter tactics of both the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. I'd say that makes Vanguard have a LOT of potential. Especially with how many times you can fight. Tho to fight three times with all the bonuses is like what, 8-9 cp. Something tells me you really shouldn't need to Honor the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 I calculated it as 7 CPs. 3 when you receive a charge to fight first. Ordinary fighting phase you pop Fight like Demi Gods (1). Then Honour the Chapter for another 3, enjoying the benefits of FLDG above. I too agree that that many fight phases likely won't be needed. Maybe if a powerful character charges a squad and your Captain goes wading in or something. *** +1 to wound works wonders on all weapons, just depending on what you want to target. As an example, a S8 power fist will wound a Knight on a 3+, tanks on a 2+. Power axes wound most infantry in a 2+! Curses but I'll need to build MORE Vanguard now. Look what you're made me do damn it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 +1 to wound is essentially the magic sauce that makes the Blood Angels as a codex so attractive. Toys are nice, but even a pile of chainsword toting Death Company guys do put a hurt on a Knight. I've seen it many times. This is essentially a higher cost "Veterans of the Long War" (which I still think is one of the best strats in the game and makes cultists just stupid good.) The only thing I don't like is the cost of entry. With all the new stuff trying to pump up Primaris plus this Victrix / Honour Guard stuff it could be very expensive CP wise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5208812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Vanguard and jump pack captains are definitely the winners in this detachment, but they are going to need some support to keep them fed with command points. Maybe two battalions full of scouts? Would giving your warlord the Ultramarines warlord trait be worth it if you spend a command point to have a field commander with the +1 wound trait? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5209013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ed Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but this isn't gonna make Ultramarines good overnight. In addition to the CP cost, the cost of Sternguard and Veterans is high. While there are a lot of rules in there that do allow marines (especially captains) to hit above their weight class, this does absolutely nothing to solve the major problem facing marine units (especially veterans): they are just small groups of T4/3+ models in an edition that favors volume. Yeah, a Guilliman bowling ball is interesting, but this detachment will, ultimately, only make a splash in the garage and not the tournament. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5209030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Vanguard and jump pack captains are definitely the winners in this detachment, but they are going to need some support to keep them fed with command points. I agree. My first thought was a Calgar or Guilliman guard of Victrix. But I completely see a resource issue as well. I don't like that there is a cost to 'admission' and then another cost when you leverage your Keyword. Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but this isn't gonna make Ultramarines good overnight. In addition to the CP cost, the cost of Sternguard and Veterans is high. While there are a lot of rules in there that do allow marines (especially captains) to hit above their weight class, this does absolutely nothing to solve the major problem facing marine units (especially veterans): they are just small groups of T4/3+ models in an edition that favors volume. Yeah, a Guilliman bowling ball is interesting, but this detachment will, ultimately, only make a splash in the garage and not the tournament. You're not being a Debbie Downer, but you can't make that statement anymore than I could make one saying it makes them great again..... We have a few hours before we can start deciding that for ourselves because we have no idea the cost of the Vanguard. The Sternguard probably won't do a heck of a lot, but then again.... what if pods became 30 points? This is what I'm saying... it's all cost relevant. We don't have any context for saying Vanguard are good or Sternguard are bad... yet. :) At least it's fun, and promising! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5209036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
robofish7591 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Sorry to be Debbie Downer, but this isn't gonna make Ultramarines good overnight. In addition to the CP cost, the cost of Sternguard and Veterans is high. While there are a lot of rules in there that do allow marines (especially captains) to hit above their weight class, this does absolutely nothing to solve the major problem facing marine units (especially veterans): they are just small groups of T4/3+ models in an edition that favors volume. Yeah, a Guilliman bowling ball is interesting, but this detachment will, ultimately, only make a splash in the garage and not the tournament. While no it doesn't fix marines (marines have a major problem that we really need a new codex to solve), it does at least give us another viable play style that we can try out. Who knows, maybe it won't be top table tournament level, but it could potentially be a decently powerful list despite the problems marines have in 8th. It definitely won't be enough to fix marines... but it just might be a boost in the right direction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5209044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 Plenty of weapons points drops allow for cheaper units. Vanguard as an example, just got a 3pt discount on Storm Shields, 3pts on a power fist and also reap the benefits of the army going down on the whole. Sure the points are still substantial but our army can more easily afford it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/352148-victrix-guard/#findComment-5209222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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