No loyalist Astartes codex until the end of the year?

[quasistellar]

If that's true then it makes me a little sad.  The entire space marine codex is propped up by one single model:  Guilliman.  While we're not hurting for models at all with all the new primaris stuff, our rules are probably only better than Grey Knights as far as strength.  Still, if there's more models coming out, I can understand that they'd wait to release it until the models come.

 

And who knows.  Maybe this means we'll see a Codex:  Inquisition in the meantime :D

[Red_Shift]

Actually codex inquisition sounds like a good guess.

 

Primaris could do with some special characters or at least some non guilliman options. A returned Russ would be one option but then one primarch is just being swapped out for the other.

[Ishagu]

With the new Chaos codex it's very clear that loyalist Astartes have now fallen far behind even the most comparative non Imperium factions.

 

The damage output and unit combos in the new Chaos book are far better. We have nothing to compare to Oblits or the sheer Dakka of the new Havoks, and they can combine that with powerful psychic powers and cheap, disposable infantry. Abaddon isn't far behind Guilliman in terms of utility (better re roll to hit aura and ld auto pass, great in cc but can teleport and use transports) and will cost half.

 

I really hope we aren't stranded in purgatory for too much longer.

[Guest Triszin]

With the new Chaos codex it's very clear that loyalist Astartes have now fallen far behind even the most comparative non Imperium factions.

 

The damage output and unit combos in the new Chaos book are far better. We have nothing to compare to Oblits or the sheer Dakka of the new Havoks, and they can combine that with powerful psychic powers and cheap, disposable infantry. Abaddon isn't far behind Guilliman in terms of utility (better re roll to hit aura and ld auto pass, great in cc but can teleport and use transports) and will cost half.

 

I really hope we aren't stranded in purgatory for too much longer.

I was thinking about this, and with the arrival of abaddon, I got a similar feel to gathering storm. I wonder if we, loyalists, are getting prepped to get a second primarch soon. 8~ months

[Ishagu]

I'd love that, but I'd also like love a new codex more.

 

Chaos have everything now, even a way of getting 2+ to assault charges.

[Captain Idaho]

With the new Chaos codex it's very clear that loyalist Astartes have now fallen far behind even the most comparative non Imperium factions.

The damage output and unit combos in the new Chaos book are far better. We have nothing to compare to Oblits or the sheer Dakka of the new Havoks, and they can combine that with powerful psychic powers and cheap, disposable infantry. Abaddon isn't far behind Guilliman in terms of utility (better re roll to hit aura and ld auto pass, great in cc but can teleport and use transports) and will cost half.

I really hope we aren't stranded in purgatory for too much longer.

- Abaddon is quite a long way behind Guilliman. It's okay our boy is still the tops.

 

- Centurions are only 65pts for more firepower (than Havoks), better survivability and superior range. Worth it.

 

- I DO agree we need an updated Codex but there won't be the power level we want since instead we got new Primaris models and competitively speaking they've been a bit of a flop already.

[MARK0SIAN]

With the new Chaos codex it's very clear that loyalist Astartes have now fallen far behind even the most comparative non Imperium factions.

 

The damage output and unit combos in the new Chaos book are far better. We have nothing to compare to Oblits or the sheer Dakka of the new Havoks, and they can combine that with powerful psychic powers and cheap, disposable infantry. Abaddon isn't far behind Guilliman in terms of utility (better re roll to hit aura and ld auto pass, great in cc but can teleport and use transports) and will cost half.

 

I really hope we aren't stranded in purgatory for too much longer.

Whilst I agree with everything you say, all of what you said about the new CSM codex being superior to the marines one can also be said about lots of other codexes that have been out a lot longer and it hasn’t spurred GW on to improve the marine one.

 

Sadly I don’t think this will have any more of an effect on bringing marines up to the right level than when the Eldar codex was released and rendered every other codex much worse.

[Ishagu]

Abaddon has a better re roll to hit aura, amazing leadership bonuses for the units that benefit Chaos, and isn't limited in mobility. And he'll be 240ish points.

 

Whilst he's not as good as Guilliman, the units around him are much better, and he can be delivered anywhere on the table. Not to mention that he can be boosted by far more useful psychic powers.

 

Oblits are better than Centurions in Every. Single. Way.

Havocs are better than Devs in Every. Single. Way.

 

The other units are looking great too, and there's no limitations on synergy between units and more exciting combos in the book. Loyalists are stuck in purgatory now. Only GK are in a worse spot.

[Guest Triszin]

ehh. its not that bad ishagu. CSM needed an update range wide for a long time.

[Captain Idaho]

You can't compared oranges to apples anyway.

 

And this is what happens when the resources shared to Marines go on items no one wanted or asked for, like I said before.

 

Let GW know with your wallets - if you're concerned by the lack of competitive options in Codex Space Marines then don't buy everything GW produces as if it's all good.

 

I mean, seriously why would GW bother to boost Space Marines if they know they can throw out trash and people buy it anyway?

 

It's been this way for years - Marines sell so they don't need much rules support. I don't agree with that attitude but it's been this way for so many editions I've lost count!

[durdle-durdle]

Wasn't there a something templars all primaris codex supposed to come out in the next month or two?

 

I remember seeing that on BOLS like 2 months ago, but can't find anything.  Was I dreaming?  I haven't heard anyone talk about it.

[Tamiel]

Do we have confirmation that a new loyalist codex will come out?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Wasn't there a something templars all primaris codex supposed to come out in the next month or two?

 

I remember seeing that on BOLS like 2 months ago, but can't find anything.  Was I dreaming?  I haven't heard anyone talk about it.

It was a fluff/art book for the Silver Templars, who are supposedly the poster boys for the Conquest Magazine, but so far have had less mentions than the Black Templars. (So that little panic was misplaced!)

[old git]

I'm willing to wait a few months if it means some more Primaris units. I 'moved on' my old marines in their entirety in anticipation of a viable Primaris army.

[Lemondish]

You can't compared oranges to apples anyway.

 

And this is what happens when the resources shared to Marines go on items no one wanted or asked for, like I said before.

 

Let GW know with your wallets - if you're concerned by the lack of competitive options in Codex Space Marines then don't buy everything GW produces as if it's all good.

 

I mean, seriously why would GW bother to boost Space Marines if they know they can throw out trash and people buy it anyway?

 

It's been this way for years - Marines sell so they don't need much rules support. I don't agree with that attitude but it's been this way for so many editions I've lost count!

Because the sculpts are amazing and their performance isn't so bad that they can't find a place in the far larger section of the hobby the try-hard groupies here forget about.

 

Please don't you ever again try and shame somebody for how they spend their hobby dollars and time.

 

Shame on you, potatoes.

[Captain Idaho]

If you're only concerned about competitive play, as someone who is posting sour grapes in multiple topics about Chaos Marines getting new stuff and Marines not, then you're not buying into Primaris because of the amazing sculpts.

 

Calm down, have a cup of tea and take another look at who I was talking to and the context of my reply.

 

(Obviously I need to point out my earlier post where I talked about the main reason to buy into Primaris being the models, which was in response to people complaining they weren't competetive)

[Ishagu]

Of course GW will improve Marines, and of course they'll flesh out Primaris more. It's just a matter of when, and how long people will need to make do with a sub-par army for.

 

Their performance has nothing at all to do with sharing resources. The models are the best yet for the faction, in my opinion so that's definitely a reason to buy.

 

You can't say that GW don't care about their rules.

 

I personally care about competitive play and probably indulge in it more than most here but that's not to say I don't want to use the armies I like the most. Competitive players spend a lot on the hobby and GW want them buying models for all factions.

[Captain Idaho]

Give them a chance. They just released a bunch of competitive options for Chaos Marines, who themselves have had a lead centrepiece model from before many folk on this forum were even born until this weekend.

 

Let's not make it all about us. Like I said, Space Marines need amendments but I applaud what has been done with Chaos.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I am very happy for Chaos. The re-release of the same codex with new data sheets was a bit of a crap move, but the new data sheets themselves, and entirely new models, are extremely exciting.

 

As for a new SM codex? It is likely we will get one, but I am hoping, as many others are, that it comes late enough to be updated and not a simple re-print. My real worry is that when PSM are split from SM the latter will get dropped entirely. And if that happens this year, there's a very good chance we won't even get an old marine codex next edition. That would be unfortunate. primaris just dont' scratch the Space Marine itch for me. In fact, I'm one of the unhappy players hoping Primaris stay their own thing, and don't actually replace real marines. So, as crappy as our current codex is, it could be worse.

 

Idaho is absolutely correct in his statement that we should vote with our wallets. If you like Primaris, buy them. But if you are uncomfortable with the direction of the faction, don't. I personally have not bought any Primaris, and have avoided buying box sets that include them. I dont' demand anyone else do so, but if you are unhappy, that is the answer. Stop buying marines, pick another faction. I'm currently waffling between Custodes and Khorne daemons myself.

[durdle-durdle]

 

Wasn't there a something templars all primaris codex supposed to come out in the next month or two?

 

I remember seeing that on BOLS like 2 months ago, but can't find anything.  Was I dreaming?  I haven't heard anyone talk about it.

It was a fluff/art book for the Silver Templars, who are supposedly the poster boys for the Conquest Magazine, but so far have had less mentions than the Black Templars. (So that little panic was misplaced!)

 

ah, that's really disappointing.  I was really excited for a primaris codex.

[redmapa]

Give them a chance. 

 

 

As far as Im concerned the rules team have had several chances and to me their actions tell me that they are not willing to change anything for certain armies, Grey Knights got "big points changes" which translated to a few characters being cheaper and minimal changes for their army which ended up remaining in the dumpster. Likewise the FAQ has been nothing but a whack a mole of the new exploit which also results in the lower tier armies being hit by these nerfs with every single FAQ having that effect and now the CSM codex which is absolutely schizophrenic in terms of its existence, its an update to a codex but it only changes certain things, what about the lack luster legion traits? Why were the Havocs (for example) buffed but the legion tactics werent? To me that speaks that GW just doesnt understand why certain rule sets need changing and giving them another chance will end up doing nothing for the armies that need something more substantial.

 

Will GW actually make this new SM codex feel like it has other viable playstyles or will it be the same with just minor things added? It probably wont have anything new in terms of rules and if their previous actions are a sign of things to come then the armies that are trash will remain in the trash and the problems of having an assault based SM army will always remain an afterthought at best and an unwanted tumor stuck into the codex that the developers just wish to forget.

 

I've given them a lot of chances and hoped for the best throughout the years and so far it has resulted in nothing, why should it be different now?.

[Red_Shift]

The thing is we know the multipart shadowspear models are coming and presumably the IF upgrade sprue so there must be new rules on the way. If that isn't a new codex it must be a new campaign book. Hopefully there will be new strategems or some other mechanic to boost space marines. Ishago also said his source has seen primaris jetbikes so the wave might be fairly large.

[CCE1981]

I doubt you'll see too many Havoc squads, you can only get them in squads of 5 and 4 of them MUST take a heavy weapon, you no longer have the option of taking special weapons.  I have rarely seen Devastators or Havocs before, I doubt that it is going to increase how many you see.   

[Ishagu]

I doubt you'll see too many Havoc squads, you can only get them in squads of 5 and 4 of them MUST take a heavy weapon, you no longer have the option of taking special weapons. I have rarely seen Devastators or Havocs before, I doubt that it is going to increase how many you see.

I disagree. The new mini gun weapon is amazing, and it's cheap. Why would you want special weapons when they can now move and fire heavy weapons without penalty?

[Toxichobbit]

 

ah, that's really disappointing.  I was really excited for a primaris codex.

 

 

I think there might be a lesson there. Something along the lines of "Don't believe anything posted on BoLS". It's easier to not get disappointed that way, because you're not getting fed sensationalist in order to get you to prop up someone's ad revenue.

 

Give them a chance. They just released a bunch of competitive options for Chaos Marines, who themselves have had a lead centrepiece model from before many folk on this forum were even born until this weekend.

 

Let's not make it all about us. Like I said, Space Marines need amendments but I applaud what has been done with Chaos.

 

They have decades of experience writing rules and Codices. They should be competant by now. They don't need more chances, they need to do their jobs better and/or be given the resources they need to do their jobs better (because lets face it, we have no idea if the problem is that the rules writers are bad, or if they just don't have the time/playtest resources to do their best work).

 

I think it's safe to assume that GW sell most of their models based on their asethetic or world building, rather than their awesome rules or narrative. If they put as much effort and skill into writing the rules and telling the ongoing story as they do into designing the models (or as much effort as the original team did building the universe) then we wouldn't see posts complaining about how badly written the story is or how underpowered some armies are, every single day. You'll never please everyone, but given the amount of posts on here and other places online about certain factions in 40k, it's fairly obvious that there is an imbalance.

 

So my Give-GW-A-Chance-O-Meter is running on fumes. I've spent over half my life giving them chances to sort out Marines and they've missed the mark the majority of the time. I'm all out of chances. I don't care if they've just re-vamped an army, or fixed something else or whatever. These problems shouldn't exist in the first place and when they do (we're all human, mistakes happen and to expect perfection 100% of the time is silly) they should be fixed quickly, not persist for years before GW even recognises them, never mind fixes them. It's not like we're talking about huge lead times for R&D of new models and units here, we're talking, in many cases, about small rules tweaks just to put everyone on a more even playing field. It's literally just making a few adjustments* in an FAQ every few months or so, until it's working correctly. And I'm saying that as a playtester who's worked closely with a rules team on another popular (non-GW) game, so I'm not in the slightest bit blind to how difficult rules balancing is. I've plenty of experience with it.

 

* just to clarify before someone jumps down my throat, by few adjustments I'm applying the rules writing strategy of making small changes and seeing how they play out before making more, rather than making a load of changes at once to try and fix everything. I'm not suggesting that Marines only need a few adjustments to bring them on par with the better factions, just that it's better to make changes slowly and give the community time to get their teeth into them and then make more as needed. When it comes to rules, it's always better to give to players, than take away. Giving in small increments reduces the chance of giving too much and then having to take some back.