No loyalist Astartes codex until the end of the year?

[Captain Idaho]

Unfortunately, as I've been engage in discourse within the thread I can't really close it for being off topic.

 

However, we can leave it to die by not posting... Which is what I'm going to do now I think. :)

[Subtleknife]

 

 

I'd love to know the truth of why GW makes some of the deicions they do. I mean, like a fly on the wall.

I just find it odd there's no one to say:

"Giant Space Marines, bigger than usual ones, don't need a covert ops release that is pretty mild on the table and thematically inconsistent as we can expand on Scouts with new models.

The Community are asking for a heavy assault unit, fast vehicle transport and some anti tank options for Primaris - maybe we should give them what they want."

 

Keep in mind that the models released today were for some of them designed 18 to 24 months ago. There wasn't such a huge demand for those then.

It's about 6 months from concept to final product. I don't know where folk get this 2 year thing?

That is different to what multiple members of GW and forgeworld design staff have told me when I asked them at various open days. They have always said work on the majority of models begins about 2 years out.

[Ciler]

 

It's about 6 months from concept to final product. I don't know where folk get this 2 year thing?

I can't and won't talk for other people, but I work by a rather simple observation : some sprues have a date on them, which differs by as much a 2 years from the actual release date of the models. 

[redmapa]

Didnt Jes Goowin say on the podcast the current Vanguard kit have been in the pipes since the beginning of Primaris? So from concept to production that would be several years and it isnt a new thing.

[Toxichobbit]

 

For the sake of clarity in my statement, let's take a look at Calgar: He's primaris now, so you can't bring him in a LR, or stormraven, or anything that isn't a repulsor.

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, though with less vim. But I want to just focus on this for a second.

 

When Calgar went to Zoltar and wished to be big, he somehow forgot how to get into Land Raiders. This is the Chapter Master who has his own personal, highly ornate, chapter relic, Land Raider. And now cos he's a few inches taller, he can't get in it anymore.

 

There are not enough palms in the world for me to put my face into in reaction to some of GWs new Marine stuff. If GW really wanted the majority of Marine players to accept Primaris, then they should start considering how stupid some of the Primaris background/rules are. If they'd done a better job integrating them into the current Astartes, instead of making it blindingly obvious that they're a cash-grab replacement that poops all over the old Marines, then maybe, just maybe, the Marine fanbase wouldn't be so split on the issue. I think we should start calling them Primarmites from now on. Everyone either seems to love them,  or hate them :p.

[Ishagu]

Those are gaming limitations, don't even think about it from a lore point of view. Guilliman can't even get in a Thunderhawk for example. That's the tabletop, not the in-universe world. The Primaris keyword is an indicator of a seperation of the range in future.

[Toxichobbit]

The cynical part of me thinks it's not only a way to seperate the ranges in the future, but also to force people into buying the Repulsor if they want Primaris. They'd sell a lot less Repulsors if Land Raiders were also a viable option. In a way I understand it, they're a business and need a return on the investment of new kits. Still, given Marines are the golden goose, I think there's more lore/community friendly ways they could have gone about it.

 

Regardless, I think seperating the ranges is a bad idea. I'll never agree with GW doing that, because that, combined with the constant pushing about how great Primaris are while ignoring normal Marines in the lore is what's causing this split in the fanbase to begin with.

[bolvar]

And that's the entire point of my previous post: they are imposing us with a new range nobody asked for, that eats away further possible releases for our current range.

 

@Ishagu: well, this is a game after all. Lore aside, the biggest part of this problem is the rules and how, because of a simple keyword, limit both the classic range and the primaris one.

 

 

I have not spent a single coin in the primaris range and I will never spend on it, because of their intentions.

[chapter master 454]

Going to stand here and make clear something: Lore and Rules are different beasts but when rules and lore make head long crashes into one another and bicker like us (hey, got to get some self awareness of this at some point) then we have clear issues. In game we have battles that rarely if ever happen, never two equally matched forces but instead one force being out done in someway because of limitation imposed outside of battle. When marines make planetfall they do so with drop pods and with overwhelming force and wipe out anyone is sight within what could be summarised as the first week of a comflict, if not less than. The only occasion where forces are equal is armageddon.

So lore does not represent the models effectiveness on the tabletop, just isn't the case.

Lore however reflects into the game. If there are points in the lore we read and then connect to a units ability it creates a wonderful synergy of imagination and engagement with the player. It aids in immersion of the game and furthering a players love of a unit.

However if Lore and Game do not mesh then we get massive issues happening in that dissonance occurs and we get what we have now: discontent player bases who will tear chunks out of each other over the matter. A good example: There exists a rhino that allegedly bore a primarch into battle (I believe it was the salamanders?). Now...I put it to you that we now have Gulliman and what do we see? He cannot get into a rhino. In fact, I want to know how he gets anywhere in any decent amount of time without heavy use of the ever unpredictable teleportariums. He clearly must ride in something or does he just pop a squat slav style atop his repulsor and yell forward?

 

I will not stand and say Lore and Game must match 1:1 but game and lore cannot be so disconnected that they literally argue with one another. I don't mind boltguns are the stats they are in game, I can suspend that issue but if we get mechanics that clearly go against the grain then I have to ask: Why can't primaris get into transports? Seems like a MAJOR issue for someone to miss. I mean, Gulliman. The grand Lord Imperium himself, the author of the codex astartes and renowned tactical and strategic genius who ruled over the Ultramar sector and did so with not just strength of arms but strength of character with politics, the Primarch who is based on Roman visual. That primarch did not consider Logistical issues with having a troop who cannot use established, easy to manufacture transports that have been in use before even he was found and brought into the fold and arguable a design that is older than him with more reliability and ease of use and making than his current new vehicle that needs to not only manufactured but distributed to all corners of the Imperium or risk his new soldiers being unable to move around warzones effectively and thus he would be disregarding the most important aspect of war? A long tirade but I make my point, stand by it like a marine next to his standard and I will stand here and defend it and ensure it is made clear that this is complete and utter stupidity.

 

As Toxi said: The fact is the new toys don't play nice with the old toys. Why? No reason other than what I hope are vestigial remains of the old GW plans for marines that were a direct mirror to the AoS atrocity that befell Fantasy Battle. CSM are getting new toys that play nice, why? Because I wager we are effectively going to see CSM become the only power army faction of the old guard. Yep, I'm calling it. Get your heretic on my fellow loyalists: you ether go Rubicon or Heretic (which even then you may go rubric...depending on your choice). Is that fair? Is that what we want? For us old guard to be tossed aside, years of history spat on and burned. Turned to ash at the whims of some company? They may make the models, but we pay their bills.

I bare no grudge towards primaris. I bare my ill will towards GW and practices that are clearly anti-consumer. If we start seeing old marines get some love, then I may change my tune but it will take more than a casual update to change it. Maybe if we see a FULL Space Marine Range update, combining certain kits together, updating older ones (scouts for example) then I might stand down. Until then, do not tell me the reason a primaris cannot get into a land raider is to do with their size. Terminators can fit and so can Centurions, why can't Primaris? Lore does not need to 1:1 the game, but it needs to be reflected!

[Sete]

Lovely discussion here. Seriously no sarcasm.

I still haven't fully accepted primaris, but im making an effort. I especially need to ignore their atrocious lore and limitations (And most of the range so far)

 

It's not easy. I fully understand the frustrations of those that prefer oldmarines. I would take classic marines resized to fit the "new" chaos scale everyday of the week over primaris.

I don't know, they feel like something that does not fit well within the universe and their existence just cheapens the concept of other various factions and previous SM lore.

 

Not gonna talk about their rules limitations. It's moronic. Now that ogmarines can be upgraded, why can't they use the transports and wargear they previously used?

 

I want the new codex to address these issues. Due to the amount of units now I don't expect ogmarines and primaris to share a codex, because eventually primaris will be the only Space Marines.

 

If ishagu rumour is right, the next loyalist codex should have all chapters (bar GK and DW) on it. FW style. After all primaris so far all use the same troop disposition, no use for separate codex right?

 

It's a shame really. I look at HH, loyal marines vs traitor marines, and it feels right, can't really put it in words, and I look to primaris vs chaos, I don't have the same feeling. There's a disconnection, and it bothers me. A lot.

[Brother Quixote]

No codex until next year at least is my guess.  My reasoning is based on Jes Goodwin's voxcast about the Shadowspear release.  He states that the dark imperium was a 'taster' of what the new primaris will get.

  The shadowspear release is based on reiver armour.

 

  I'm guessing two more waves of Primaris at least, one based on the heavier Gravis armour for sure.  The other being based on the medium Intercessor type armour or vehicle/dreadnought side of things.

 

Either way that's a summer and christmas release.  A new codex would be after that.  And to be honest I don't want to have to buy another one so soon.  The rules will be with the new kits and they have released new psychic powers with shadowspear, so some new strategems could be on the (data)cards.  That would tide us over nicely.  This means chapter approved as well, so points reductions there maybe and consolidated datasheets for all new units.

 

Yes, it will be nice to have everything in one place sooner rather than later but honestly, with all the Primaris releases, I don't think we can complain about the astartes being neglected.  They just may not be going in the direction we personally want.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Didnt Jes Goowin say on the podcast the current Vanguard kit have been in the pipes since the beginning of Primaris? So from concept to production that would be several years and it isnt a new thing.

 

Yes he did, pretty much said Primaris have been in development for five years, he also mentioned reivers being a close combat unit and mentioned huge knives (rule team didn't really follow through on that one).

[Sete]

5 years and this is what they came with? xD

[Sword Brother Adelard]

To be fair, they probably didn't spend the whole 5 years on just Primaris.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

5 years and this is what they came with? xD

 

He implied that they had quite a bit coming for primaris. He did mention that we would see some of the existing primaris armor types with different weapon loadouts. 

[Ishagu]

I still sense a lot of apprehensive feelings towards Primaris. I came to accept them very quickly but I also understand that not everyone will do so.

 

We must ask ourselves, do we really expect something to last forever? Do we really expect things not to change?

 

In a perfect world Marines would have looked better from the start, the rules would have been better, and the design of the army would have been better. Those things were all very flawed.

 

A fresh start is not a bad thing in the long run. If you enjoy the hobby you can accept changes or you can hate them, and ultimately poison your enjoyment. GW have been so utterly slow with releases that even at casual pace, with minimal investment or even occasional ebay purchases anyone here could have amassed a Primaris army in anticipation for the next codex and wave of releases.

 

There are things I've grown to hate about the classic Marine line, one of them being the generalist approach to every unit. Nothing does a job as well as something else in a different faction does. It doesn't have to be this way but after 10+ years of designing Astartes this way it's not as easy to change them. An army can have a generalist approach but that doesn't have to extend to every unit within it.

 

One thing I'll say is that we shouldn't be judging things so negatively yet. The story has holes, the range has holes, the lore has holes. The picture isn't done yet, pieces of the puzzle are missing. They are drip feeding us slowly but in the end it will be a more complete idea that makes sense.

 

Oh, and kits are typically released 2-3 years after initial designing. There's no such thing as a 6 month turnaround. GW can change the order of releases but the time scale is typically unchanged.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

It would not be hard to fix classic space marines to have more variation in how they play. The rules wouldn't even need to be complicated to do so. There is enough data available, as well as balance data, that a GW team should be able to handle it. However, I keep seeing huge design flaws in major decisions, and it confuses me.

 

I, as a single person, could re-write the mechanical side of the space marine codex in 2 to 4 weeks. Assuming I shared it among my friends and collected notes, I could play test it in roughly 3 months, making revisions along the way. This is mostly possible due to the game having been out for a couple of years. It's easy to understand why the codex isn't good. It was, after all, the first. These updates wont' happen. Not because they are impossible, but because GW wants to give Primaris an artificial boost.

 

Ishagu. Space Marines aren't ending. They will last for as long as GW is a company. approaching this from the angle of 'everything must end' is flawed. Space Marines will always be here. primarchs will always show up to add drama. They will always get super hyped in lore and raise our expectations extremely high. The only valid point you've made is that things do need to change. However, ask yourself something.

 

 

Are chaos players mad about Obliterators?

 

Chaos Space Marines are exactly the same as marines in terms of fan base and place in the lore. But their new models are getting accepted much more readily. And the reason for that is that all of the new models build upon, and respect, the old. Another poster earlier in this forum pointed out how chaos models work together. That is the case. everything that poster said was true, and perfectly outlines the reasons why people dont' like Primaris. it isn't that they're changing. it's that the change is being handled poorly. Nearly everyone agrees on that. Furthermore, a smaller (but not insignificant) section of marine players outright dislike what they are being changed into. Marines players that I'm sure are perfectly happy with the new Obliterators, Lord of Discord, and Greater Possessed. Go figure. I love Marines. I always will. But I do not have any positive feelings for Primaris, and they will never be the same thing for me. I'll just go play another army that I can feel good about.

 

That is the exact reverse of what GW wants. They don't want the Mes of the world, loyal Space Marine fans, walking away from that range. Because what could have been new Space Marine and Khorne armies are now Only a new Khorne army, and they make half the money they I otherwise would have given them.

[Captain Idaho]

I would agree with the sentiment Ishagu describes except a pair of very crucial elements... I spent my money on their product (Space Marines) and the lifespan of said product wasn't even close to needing replacement.

 

I mean, the generalist approach didn't even need to be set as Classic vs Primaris - New "Indomintus Legionaires" could have been introduced. The limit is the imagination. There was no need for the new line.

 

Even the term Primaris is cynical. GW operates a WYSIWYG system that is replicated in almost all gaming groups and tournaments etc. As long as there is a single Classic Marine, even in Chaos form, old Marines can't even count as as Primaris because it confuses WYSIWYG.

 

***

 

It's money. My product that wasn't out of its sell by date was forcibly retired (or put into the legacy zone for now) without need, to make money cynically.

 

If someone wants to refund me my money and time painting and building my army then sure I'll jump on board with Primaris. I'd settle for just the money and accept the time is gone, even!

 

If not... well then don't expect me to act like a happy consumer.

[Robbienw]

5 years and this is what they came with? xD

Indeed. 5 years in development to produce utterly mediocre minis and fluff, and put the nose of many classic marine players out of joint, good result.

 

To be fair to them from the jes voxcast, they have obviously put a lot of thought into their ‘marine redesign’ and their ideas sounded good, but they haven’t come out well.

 

They’ve just made bigger marines with extra bits all over them with excessive modern day military computer game tacticool elements which will really make them really dated in the future.

[Ishagu]

The minis themselves are not mediocre. They are the best loyalist Astartes models I've seen in all my hobby time in my opinion.

 

You might not personally like them, but objectively they are not bad. All the regular models look like stunted squats by comparison, and kits like the Sternguard are impractical to the point of sillyness. It would be outrageous to re-release the same units yet again.

 

The new chaos kits are great but they were much needed, replacing resin kits or 20yr old models. What do the loyalists need in terms of classic Astartes? We've got plastic Devs, Assault Squads, half a dozen Tactical variants, Terminator variants, all plastic. The range is so bloated and filled out.

 

Can people not accept that the range may simply have reached a natural conclusion and the designers and studio felt they needed a fresh start, not shackled to existing limitations of lore/look/design?

 

As for Idaho saying he wanted a longer time with his models - I wasn't aware that we are no longer able to play the classic Marines? Let's not scare monger. The kits will be on sale and playable for a long time. If you get over 10 years out of them is that reasonable or not?

But seriously, we're now two years into Primaris being unveiled. How long is the negative emotion going to last? In all this time not a single plastic classic kit has been discontinued.

 

Going back to topic. I am concerned with the size of the next codex if they keep everything in it. Just the number of useless strats we have to sift through. Ugh. They need to erase a lot of chaff.

[Marshal Rohr]

The negative emotion will last as long as white knights run around telling people the old mixed armor aesthetic isn’t as cool as a rail system on a bolter or a skull mask.

[Ishagu]

Lol the skull mask hate. Don't buy the kit. It's only on one unit.

 

Astartes bikers are ugly as sin to me. So out of proportion. I simply don't buy any, and didn't invest even when bikers were the best units to run back in 7th.

 

And hey, keep buying the old kits if they make you happy. Stop being angry about the new ones.

[Marshal Rohr]

Interesting that every point you made about the old marines being squat and out of proportion meaning we need Primaris was completely and utterly disproven by the rescaled and redone chaos infantry kits.

 

Stop being angry people don’t like the NuMarines and their kiddie comic lore.

[Ishagu]

Interesting that every point you made about the old marines being squat and out of proportion meaning we need Primaris was completely and utterly disproven by the rescaled and redone chaos infantry kits.

I don't think so at all. The biggest problem with Astartes are the function of the units, not just the visual design.

 

Chaos are different enough in function, and their worst units are the ones most similar to the loyalist variants lol. It actually proves my point.

[Marshal Rohr]

You don’t get to decide that their function was bad just because you could autowin all your games. If the rules needed to tweaked they could’ve done that and released well proportioned kits. Not shoe horn some lazy Primarch and Cawl ex machina into the setting.