No loyalist Astartes codex until the end of the year?

[Volt]

I still sense a lot of apprehensive feelings towards Primaris. I came to accept them very quickly but I also understand that not everyone will do so.

 

We must ask ourselves, do we really expect something to last forever? Do we really expect things not to change?

 

In a perfect world Marines would have looked better from the start, the rules would have been better, and the design of the army would have been better. Those things were all very flawed.

 

A fresh start is not a bad thing in the long run. If you enjoy the hobby you can accept changes or you can hate them, and ultimately poison your enjoyment. GW have been so utterly slow with releases that even at casual pace, with minimal investment or even occasional ebay purchases anyone here could have amassed a Primaris army in anticipation for the next codex and wave of releases.

 

There are things I've grown to hate about the classic Marine line, one of them being the generalist approach to every unit. Nothing does a job as well as something else in a different faction does. It doesn't have to be this way but after 10+ years of designing Astartes this way it's not as easy to change them. An army can have a generalist approach but that doesn't have to extend to every unit within it.

 

One thing I'll say is that we shouldn't be judging things so negatively yet. The story has holes, the range has holes, the lore has holes. The picture isn't done yet, pieces of the puzzle are missing. They are drip feeding us slowly but in the end it will be a more complete idea that makes sense.

 

Oh, and kits are typically released 2-3 years after initial designing. There's no such thing as a 6 month turnaround. GW can change the order of releases but the time scale is typically unchanged.

 

The generalist approach is good because it's the realistic one, and it makes no sense at all for marines to have mono-loadout units that would be strategically and tactically untenable on an actual battlefield. The answer to the issue of marines being a gak army isn't to turn them into   Eldar, it's to actually make the game semi-decent instead of the utter farce it is right now; where tactics have gone to die in a hole and everything revolves around basal efficiency calculations and aura blobs. Marines would be just fine if they actually existed in the fairly well designed wargame they were conceived for (2nd edition), the issue is that GW has been carving out chunks of it in favor of a soulless production where only cheap bodies matter or raw damage output. So it doesn't even function like an actual battlefield, but some bizarre port of an RTS videogame onto the table.

 

The answer to the problem isn't to torpedo the extremely old, grounded lore that makes a semi-decent amount of sense in favor of corporatist-marketing bollocks slapped together by an intern, it's to torpedo the godawful game and shoot it out of the airlock. Nobody needs new units, what we need is a 9th edition that is totally new and gets rid of every single current mechanic and redesigned from the ground-up as a proper, tactical, wargame.

[Ishagu]

You don’t get to decide that their function was bad just because you could autowin all your games. If the rules needed to tweaked they could’ve done that and released well proportioned kits. Not shoe horn some lazy Primarch and Cawl ex machina into the setting.

Stop being so angry. Cheer up, move on.

 

Hobby as hard as you hate.

 

It's not my opinion, it's a fact. Generalist units without clear purpose are inferior.

 

Volt - I'm sorry but I don't agree. The game is pretty fantastic now. Far, far better than 5th/6th/7th.

I don't know what you're comparing it to. 2nd edition? That's pretty silly. Play kill team if you want a smaller, more limited experience like it was early on in 40k.

[Marshal Rohr]

You never had to take special or heavy weapons in a tactical squad. You could’ve always made ten bolter dudes. If you don’t like people pointing that out it’s you that needs to move on.

[Ishagu]

You never had to take special or heavy weapons in a tactical squad. You could’ve always made ten bolter dudes. If you don’t like people pointing that out it’s you that needs to move on.

Yes but now I have a beautiful new kit with better looking Astarte who perform better in their design and function.

 

Win, win and win.

 

The Intercessors are only a small part of the puzzle. The Inceptors are the first non chapter exclusive jump pack unit I've ever used that actually works well. The Repulsor is better than a Landraider in every way. The firepower of a God Hammer and Crusader combined and it flies. Fantastic stuff.

 

God I hope we aren't really waiting for 6 months or more for a new book and wave of releases.

[Volt]

 

You don’t get to decide that their function was bad just because you could autowin all your games. If the rules needed to tweaked they could’ve done that and released well proportioned kits. Not shoe horn some lazy Primarch and Cawl ex machina into the setting.

Stop being so angry. Cheer up, move on.

 

Hobby as hard as you hate.

 

It's not my opinion, it's a fact. Generalist units without clear purpose are inferior.

 

Volt - I'm sorry but I don't agree one but. The game is pretty fantastic now. Far, far better than 5th/6th/7th.

I don't know what you're comparing it to. 2nd edition? That's pretty silly. Play kill team if you want a smaller, more limited experience like it was early on in 40k.

No. I'm comparing it to actual wargames like Bolt Action, Crossfire, Lion Rampant, Armageddon, Caesar, and Flames of War. Games where tactical choices trump basically everything and your units stats aren't nearly as important as actually fighting a war. 8th edition isn't a wargame. It's a bloody card game where stratagems and damage output are all you need to worry about. 5th edition is also completely superior to 8th edition as it is actually balanced. It is still an utterly simplistic wargame, but at least there are some actual tactics to it.

 

Generalist units sucking isn't a sign that there needs to be no generalist units, it's a sign that your game is godawful and needs to be completely overhauled and possibly have all of the devs sacked for incompetency.

[Ishagu]

Why aren't you playing those games? Clearly 40k isn't making you happy. Move on and return in 5 years.

 

I'm loving it. Astartes are sub par currently so I built up other armies. It's up to the individual to overcome negativity and a mental block. I care about Marines and want them to be good also. I don't want GW to worry about the past so much they gimp the new stuff, they should just go wild.

[Marshal Rohr]

For a kit you love a lot you spent weeks trying to convince people all the models we were getting were conversions.

 

 

The real question isn’t “if you like those other games why aren’t you playing them?” It’s “if you want to play a game with power armor and tacticool super soldiers why aren’t you playing halo”.

[Ishagu]

Yep, the first crappy quality, shoddy looking pics of a singular unpainted model did not strike me.

 

Thankfully I've seen more now and love them.

 

Edit:

 

I like Halo. I also like the direction of Primaris as they are more Scifi and less fantasy. They are still clearly Astartes that belong to the setting and the identity isn't lost.

 

Why don't you convert some Primaris with extra bling? Hobby as hard as you hate.

[Marshal Rohr]

If that were true they wouldn’t have needed the BL team to perform triage on their lore from day one. Also for a guy that pays people to paint his models you sure tell people to hobby a lot. I cast my own custom parts and spend hours fixing old marine poses. I’ve never even touched an airbrush. Hand painted, flaws and all, on my own with no help from commission painters. You just play games. You should stop insuinuating we don’t hobby.

[Ishagu]

You're just full of hate. I get it, you don't like anything new. If you're just going to spout bile forever there is literally nothing you can contribute to any future discussion.

 

As for hobbying, I've clearly done much more than you in the last two years. I'm not wasting my efforts on hating everything.

I've also got no problem with a commission on top as collecting models is also part of the hobby, especially ones painted to an incredible standard that I can't personally match.

[Volt]

Why aren't you playing those games? Clearly 40k isn't making you happy. Move on and return in 5 years.

 

I'm loving it. Astartes are sub par currently so I built up other armies. It's up to the individual to overcome negativity and a mental block. I care about Marines and want them to be good also. I don't want GW to worry about the past so much they gimp the new stuff, they should just go wild.

No, I won't move on because 40k is 40k, and FOW and BA are neither that widespread or have the lore of 40k. "Going wild" is a godawful idea that bankrupt of artistic integrity because it aborts the rules of the world and the themes of the setting. You also don't care about Marines, because Marines are generalists. That's literally what they are. What you want isn't Marines, it's to turn every single bloody army into Eldar while not fixing the core issue at hand - the game is a bloated mess that has been crawling on since the 1980's with no updates to the core mechanics since then.

 

Marines don't suck because they're generalists. They suck because the game is designed by devs who think that a ruleset made for infantry skirmishes on the d6 translates effectively to apocalypse with any semblance of balance remaining. Not to mention that Primaris still suck too so I'm not getting this idea that making specialized units somehow makes them better - people aren't taking blobs of intercessors to sweep tournaments. It's all Scouts. Why? Because the only thing that matters in 8th edition is how cheap you come and how many shots you pump out so you can unlock those sweet sweet heavy support slots.

 

 

You're just full of hate. I get it, you don't like anything new. If you're just going to spout bile forever there is literally nothing you can contribute to any future discussion.

 

As for hobbying, I've clearly done much more than you in the last two years. I'm not wasting my efforts on hating everything.

I've also got no problem with a commission on top as collecting models is also part of the hobby, especially ones painted to an incredible standard that I can't personally match.

New is great. The issue is when new is made by incompetents looking at a spreadsheet instead of channeling the Muse.

[Kallas]

I also like the direction of Primaris as they are more Scifi and less fantasy. They are still clearly Astartes that belong to the setting and the identity isn't lost.

 

Why don't you convert some Primaris with extra bling? Hobby as hard as you hate.

I strongly disagree that the Primaris aesthetic is in keeping with the lore. They are minimalist and have very little that ties them to the Imperium and the 41st/42nd Millennium at all. They are as utilitarian as Marines, but they have none of the character.

 

You say convert them... but that's requiring one to use Marine kits , the irony of which seems to be lost on you. Marines have character and soul - hell, from a purely modelling point of view one can do so much more with the Marine kits because even the multi-part Primaris kits are woefully lacklustre in poseability.

 

Simply, I 100% disagree that Primaris fit the Marine identity, and that extends far beyond just their appearance.

[Ishagu]

You don't own 40k, and maybe what it is in your mind doesn't match what the studio is doing with it. That's perfectly fine but you must recognise that it's the case.

 

Kallas - if you think that over the top bling is reflective of soul then that's your opinion. I think they went too far in a lot of cases. I also think people see a lot of older kits in the same way we see older video games.

[Marshal Rohr]

You hate old marines, Heresy, and non-Primaris releases way more than anyone else hates Primaris. Your toxicity is what causes people to speak out against you. You do it to yourself.

 

And as for hobbying I spent six hours making a mold of Mark 3 legs today to match my shiny new chaos marines leg height. Just because I don’t post my models on a board where the moderators allowed people to insult my work doesn’t mean you’ve done more.

[Volt]

You don't own 40k, and maybe what it is in your mind doesn't match what the studio is doing with it. That's perfectly fine but you must recognise that it's the case.

Actually the creator of 40k, Priestly, is pretty much in our camp. The only thing he'd disagree with is the idea that Space Marines are heroes, but otherwise he's solidly in the grimdark gothic camp.

[Ishagu]

You hate old marines, Heresy, and non-Primaris releases way more than anyone else hates Primaris. Your toxicity is what causes people to speak out against you. You do it to yourself.

 

And as for hobbying I spent six hours making a mold of Mark 3 legs today to match my shiny new chaos marines leg height. Just because I don’t post my models on a board where the moderators allowed people to insult my work doesn’t mean you’ve done more.

I don't hate them. I just don't let them spoil my excitement for new, better looking and more unique releases. Heck, we now have flying auto cannon Marines. Who knows what's next.

[Marshal Rohr]

Probably sharks with laser beams on their head and a hamster in a tank.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Better-looking and more unique?

 

I don't think those words mean what they think you mean...

 

But in all seriousness, Ishagu, this forum is probably about to get locked. It has devolved into bickering and nonsense that will get nothing done. Before it is, though, I want you to understand something.

 

There are marine Players that build them for the asthetic, gateway players, people who took them once upon a time because they were strong. But there are also players who collect and build them because they love marines themselves. Nothing gets me more excited about 40K than the thought of my Templars roaring their chainswords in bloody vengeance for the God Emperor of Mankind. They are the reason I picked up this hobby, and I still buy and build old marine units to this day. I added 3 more Centurions to my force last week. An ironclad the week before that. Two months ago I bought a Storm Raven and 2 Talons. Tell me. Should I lose rules for those units? Should the thing that I love about 40K get tossed aside because GW wants to refresh the E-bay trade? Is 1 year a good return on that investment?

 

You can keep Primaris Marines. They're part of the lore now. But it actively annoys me that you're comparing their buffed rules to them actually being good units. They are getting written as OP and having everything upgunned purely to sell more models, and to phase out my guys. Not for any real reason. not for a good lore reason. Your guys have 30 inch -1 bolters because some scrub at a table asked the question, 'So how do we bully people into buying these?' I hope that's satisfying, because at the rate the lore is going, that's all you're going to get. Congratulations. Every marine is now an Ultra Marine. We can now all be super special golden boys together.

 

Primaris might have GW's support, but they will never have my ZEAL.

[chapter master 454]

I am seriously at a loss. So many things to say, so many viewpoints to explain, so many aspects to express, debate and discuss and yet my mind fails as do my fingers across the keyboard.

 

Ishagu. Let me point something to you about your latest statement. You say that chaos' worst units were those closest to loyalists. If that is the case and the fix was some simple numbers being done up, simple +1 to attacks, wounds and give their boltguns AP1 then I ask you: Why were Primaris ever needed? Who Asked for Primaris? We never asked for Primaris. Lets not lie. Even you would say that we only wanted marines to be made to feel like marines (which I believe is one part of why you love Primaris) and that for their looks to get updated to not only be scaled rightly but also some nice touches added (the other part of why I feel you love primaris).

Do not take me talking to you as attacking. It is me talking to point some things from one weary Battle-Brother to another. I have no gripes with Primaris, they are a child not asked for brought upon 40k where another was asked for. They have no wrong. I personally use Intercessors and will be trying out the new Vanguard stuff at some point (work sucks) so I cannot speak of their other units. To me, Intercessors stand where I see a shadow of what should of been. We wanted a marine range re-fresh like what chaos is getting now. We wanted marine to get stats to reflect their lore a little better. Maybe even some new gear, hey I love the new bolt rifles. Swell pieces of kit!

This isn't what we wanted. We get told it is what we asked for yet I know, you know and we all know this wasn't what we were asking for and are the echos of an old, disconnected greedy man who knew nothing but green, and I don't mean orks. This is why i harbour nothing against Primaris, they suffer as much as the old marines do too. Look at both sides, a war fought by both that neither wanted. A war...how funny it seems like the one thing we should be most used to is the one thing we are most tired of now.

 

At this point, Primaris are here to stay. What makes it sting is what happens now? Primaris without old marines will wither and die. While new blood is certainly healthy, you need the old guard to hold the line. We are the ones who have the money to spend on this incredible hobby. Old Marines by themselves will continue to sell but...lack that certain something to really shine as an army. They need each other but they do not work together. We do not have the option to unite the two sides into one. They are separate and unique, on their own without anything to back them proper from us.

 

We want to play together. We want our units to feel like they all belong together but as long as the word Primaris keeps a wall between old and new, there will never be peace. There will never be rest. There will only be war.

I cannot further express myself further. My fire dying at this moment only for it to rekindle at some later point, a moment of sombre reflection and introspection. Maybe my next post will contain fiery oratory that would make the chaplains proud but for now, I only say that due to my various views, opinions and thoughts on the matter I often feel I contradict what I say yet only because I do not express myself well enough but if I were to put more time into my posts I would further dilute what I mean to say or lose the thoughts I had at the start.

 

 

It is the divide that makes the whole thing stink. I think I found the right words... 

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

You don't own 40k, and maybe what it is in your mind doesn't match what the studio is doing with it. That's perfectly fine but you must recognise that it's the case.

Actually the creator of 40k, Priestly, is pretty much in our camp. The only thing he'd disagree with is the idea that Space Marines are heroes, but otherwise he's solidly in the grimdark gothic camp.

 

 

Well, to play devils advocate, the guy who made Astartes into Astartes, instead of "criminals in super-armour", Jes Goodwin, has been instrumental in designing the Primaris line.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to point out the the introduction to Warhammer 40K actually says there is no progress, no innovation or enlightenment; only stagnation. Primaris fly in the face of that.

[Volt]

I'd like to point out the the introduction to Warhammer 40K actually says there is no progress, no innovation or enlightenment; only stagnation. Primaris fly in the face of that.

There's "progress" in the sense that existing designs are refined or STC's are recovered, but it's rare that the Imperium ever comes up with something truly new. Primaris would be fine if they were a long, existing project by the Admech with some serious downsides similar to the Thunder Warrior project - more bang at the cost of lower lifespan or something. Instead what we got was Deus Ex Machina, which is among the worst writing devices a writer can invoke.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I'd like to point out the the introduction to Warhammer 40K actually says there is no progress, no innovation or enlightenment; only stagnation. Primaris fly in the face of that.

 

Turns out that's a pretty poor way of running a business. Huh.

 

In light of which, you'll have a hard time to convince GW that the things they were doing half a decade was better than how they're doing things now.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

I firmly believe that the Primaris redesign is the solution and there's the potential to make them great, but GW have been so utterly slow with new releases for them. I wonder if the vocal whingers, complainers and bile in the community have something to do with the snail's pace rollout.

 

Um, there's nothing remotely specialised about the classic Astartes. Nothing about them holds up. Nothing is truly fit for purpose.

 

Inceptors, Hellblasters, Intercessors and the Repulsor are all far better than the closest classic equivalents, as an example. Reivers are comparative to an assault squad but are cheaper, have more attacks and more wounds but with less movement and are unfairly criticised because people judge everything by offensive capabilities.

The Primaris line has gaps but they will be filled over time. Infiltrators are already filling the niche that scouts provide, however they are priced uncompetitively at this point in time. We can see that the shortcomings are being addressed.

 

And there is where opinions clashes:

 

For you, primaris are the solution to marine range, both for model aspect and the rules one, which are here to save us from everything including ourselves. In essence, the future of the SM range.

 

 

For me, they are a hateful intent to replace the classic marine range and cast them into oblivion/legacy standpoint where they will be ultimately discarded (in short, planned obsolescence).

 

Their lore for me is heresy-bording and their rules are stupid as hell. New releases that can't work with anything released before them? For Emperor's sake, that's a spit in our face and still some people think that we should be grateful for it.

 

For the sake of clarity in my statement, let's take a look at Calgar: He's primaris now, so you can't bring him in a LR, or stormraven, or anything that isn't a repulsor. The same applies to every primaris release before him. The only thing that work between primaris and classic units are characters auras. And of course, don't forget the intent of the primaris releases:

-Intercessors are made to replase tactical squads

-Aggresors are made to replace terminators

-Redemptor Dreadnoughts are made to replace classic dreadnoughts

-Primaris versions of characters, with the issues that I've mentioned with the Calgar example. If tomorrow they launch a primaris Emperor's Champion, tell me, how can I transport him? I'm bound to buy a Repulsor, because every single other transport I own CAN'T transport him, for example.

-Special mention at Vanguard primaris (the last release, with infiltrators and eliminators which are aimed to replace scouts) and the vanguard librarians, which their support powers being able only to affect vanguard primaris.

 

In short: Primaris, for me, is the biggest insult GeeDub could make to SM players. Because their intent is to replace our models, and every release only further cements that statement. What was the last release that wasn't primaris for us? Because I can't remember it. Every single SM release since 8th has been primaris for us.

 

And I can understand it: they are on the works of a new range. But that's costing us possible new releases for the classic range. So we have yet another new competitor for releases, and the worst of it: It's in our house now. When chaos players get new releases, they are made to expand their entire range, and the same goes for orks, t'au, eldar, IG, and every single army beside us, which are getting releases explicity made to be used only with primaris or even less, vanguard primaris being the target.

 

 

Take a look at CSM new releases: not a single one of them not only not invalidates older units and they can be used alongside the old range, and still bring something new. For example, the greater possesed who give a +1 strength aura. A new unit which can and will be used alongside everything that was released before.

 

 

If the schedule in the mid/long term run for space marines is to be replaced with the new, shiny primaris, schewing the classic range and condemning them to not getting never a new release, I'm sorry but I'll burn my miniatures and I'll take it like WHFantasy: they destroyed the game and replaced it with some aberration made from stiches of it's corpse. Simply because my models are bound to be legacy units, much like happened to Fantasy Empire. Or worse, get the Bretonnian treatment. And while in the short run that won't happen, it allows for the possibily of it in the long run, and I'm not going to accept it.

 

 

So yes, I truly hope that the "vocal whingers, complainers and bile in the community" as you call us, are resoundingly heard and took in consideration, because we too spend our money in their craft, and the least we're expecting is something called respect for the investment, both in money and time, that we've made all these past years. And we have ample reasons to think this, considering that they destroyed an entire product that was even older than 40K and the last releases not only contradict that statement, but further cements it.

Burning your miniatures is no less melodramatic now than it was when age of sigmar happened.

 

Just saying.

[Volt]

 

Burning your miniatures is no less melodramatic now than it was when age of sigmar happened.

 

Just saying.

 

It's also incredibly dumb considering it's not like that retcons suddenly destroy said miniatures either. I have never understood the concept of destroying your own models - or even selling them for that matter. You put enough love and hard work into something; how could you part with it?