No loyalist Astartes codex until the end of the year?

[Blindhamster]

So I read the rest of the stuff here.

 

Nice to see we have yet another thread derailed and turned into a primaris bashing thread. Usual suspects too.

 

Primaris aren't for everyone, That's fine, thankfully all the classic marine stuff is still totally usable at least for the foreseeable future.

 

The chaos refresh is nice, they didn't do it for marines because the designers were getting sick of remaking the standard 5 unit types for marines over and over (tactical, assault, devastator, terminator and scout). This was a thing being pointed out way before primaris came out but about the time rumours started spreading of a new kind of marine army. Does it suck if you wanted new marine stuff again? Yes. Did marines need an update particularly? No, Not really as those classic kits are relatively modern by GW standards, maybe scouts and terminators.

 

But GW want to make money and marines are their best seller, so something new happened. Some people hate them, some people love them, the majority aren't too bothered either way.

[Captain Idaho]

It's been quite civil and I don't think there's been any "bashing"; only criticism of aspects people don't like.

 

For me, as I said, it's my collection. If my collection is being phased out and going to be an unsupported legacy army then I'm not happy. Everything else I can let go and embrace (depending just how bad the fluff is lol).

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

It's also incredibly dumb considering it's not like that retcons suddenly destroy said miniatures either. I have never understood the concept of destroying your own models - or even selling them for that matter. You put enough love and hard work into something; how could you part with it?

Eh selling miniatures is something I did while collecting them. I tend to overbuy stuff.

 

 

But GW want to make money and marines are their best seller, so something new happened. Some people hate them, some people love them, the majority aren't too bothered either way. 

This. There was a lot of citing "what happened to fantasy" in this topic. I'm pretty sure "what happened to fantasy" was that it was pulled out from irrelevancy and invigorated for the first time in ages. We may not all like the direction, but fantasy did not look to be in a good place prior to Sigmar.

It's been quite civil and I don't think there's been any "bashing"

 

Hah.

[Captain Idaho]

Well it's your definition of bashing.

 

Though I have just read the last page of replies and that wasn't that civil so perhaps I'll reconsider that position.

 

Guys... let's keep things nice. We might not agree and indeed we don't have to, but let's just not hold a grudge against each other.

[Rik Lightstar]

It's been quite civil and I don't think there's been any "bashing"; only criticism of aspects people don't like.

 

For me, as I said, it's my collection. If my collection is being phased out and going to be an unsupported legacy army then I'm not happy. Everything else I can let go and embrace (depending just how bad the fluff is lol).

There's been definitive bashing on both sides.

 

I was particularly impressed by an ad-hom for using a commission paint service and the implication that using an airbrush is somehow less worthy of a hobbyist that was trotted out by one of the members here. Which was i and response to someone on the other side suggesting that some ephemeral concept of "hobby hours" seems to define your value as a hobbyist.

 

I've had an account here for nearly 10 years, I've been in the hobby for nearly 30. To be honest, this place has got to the point where it's rarely worth reading past page 3 of a thread as the same 10 people are just thrashing out the same argument that's been going on for the last 2 years.

 

Rik

[Blindhamster]

If you cannot see how the attitude in this thread is toxic. I am not sure why you're a mod.

 

I'm also pretty sure that forum rules say that stuff needs to be constructive and not regurgitating the same negative comments over and over again (seems like the spamming, disruptive behaviour and in some posts even the disrespectful behavior rules to me).

 

This thread needs a melta. I'm sick of coming onto the bolter and chainsword, a place that has been a haven to me for close to 14 years to the same kinds of posts from the same people all the time. It is so sad to always find the place so negative and really ruins what was always the best 40k forum on the internet.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe you should read my post above then instead of criticising my position as Mod here.

 

Also it's fairly clear that there is confusion between a Mod performing Moderation duties and posting in a discussion. Mods are Frater first and aside from a back and forth between 2 people in this thread that got quite snippy, there hasn't been any particular venom or toxicity here.

 

Because people are saying things you don't agree with doesn't make it toxic. Especially if it's in a localised thread.

 

It's not as if someone is going into your Primaris Tactica thread and bashing Primaris.

 

Forum toxicity goes in many directions and censuring criticism is definitely one of those things.

Well it's your definition of bashing.

Though I have just read the last page of replies and that wasn't that civil so perhaps I'll reconsider that position.

Guys... let's keep things nice. We might not agree and indeed we don't have to, but let's just not hold a grudge against each other.

Read here as it appears you missed what I said.

[Rik Lightstar]

 

Forum toxicity goes in many directions and censuring criticism is definitely one of those things.

 

Criticism should really be constructive to serve any purpose, what there's been a lot of in this thread and SO many before is the same tired old whining about:

 

Tacticool

NuMarines

Old Marines being "Squatted" (purely speculation at this point)

Nobody asked for Primaris (my personal favourite by a long way, nobody asked for T'au, or Necrons, or Culexus Assassins in any great quantities but we've got them too)

And the Internet favourite of "I don't like it, so therefore it's WRONG"

The new Lore sucks! (as if GW have ever been some body of incredible writers)

 

None of these (admittedly paraphrased) statements really progress ANY discussion at this point.

 

Some of you will feel that individual entries on that list are aimed directly at you, if you feel that way, you've probably trotted out the same line WAY too many times and you've become predictable.

 

Rik

[Robbienw]

The chaos refresh is nice, they didn't do it for marines because the designers were getting sick of remaking the standard 5 unit types for marines over and over (tactical, assault, devastator, terminator and scout).

Now they can get sick of remaking the same 4 unit types over and over in Phobos, Tacticus, Ominis and Gravis flavours instead I guess.

 

I doubt these claims though that they were getting ‘sick’ of making these units specifically over and over again. They still update and make variant units for armies now. I think it’s more that they also want the chance to create new things as well as update. They have a lot of designers working for them so if someone was getting bored I’m sure they could ask to move into other army projects for variation and someone else could move onto marines.

[Ishagu]

The same few people do voice the same negativity over and over in every topic.

 

Maybe a break from the hobby is in order for some. It's clearly soured for you beyond repair if everything upsets you so much.

 

You can chose to remain bitter for no real reason or you can move on and enjoy things, as I've pointed out before. GW have a vision and a direction. It's not your vision and that's fine. 2 years is a long time to be angry and upset.

 

I'm happy with the new models, and I'm clearly enjoying the hobby more. Evaluate what you're getting out of it if you can't move past the same subjective issues every day.

[Blindhamster]

Also to be clear, you can post in discussions all you like, just like anyone else. But it doesn't make you any different from other people when it comes to the rules, and they quite clearly call out posting the same negative comments over and over as against the rules.

 

As Rik is saying, voicing an opinion in a constructive manner, talking about ways to go forward from where we are makes sense and is positive for the forum.

 

I've no doubt that people are going to jump on this, saying that people like ishagu always being overly positive about primaris is just as bad, and I agree that it's arguably just as much spamming as the negative, but the thing that is different is that being positive is exactly that, it should breed a good atmosphere here. Being negative simply cannot do that without the attached constructive "How do we go forward from here" stuff.

 

And Idaho, I know you're annoyed at the feeling your old stuff could eventually be made redundant, I get it, I packed up about 250 space marines and all the class of marine vehicles yesterday as I came to the decision I wont use them again for a long time. You're entitled to your views as a valued member of the community.

[Ishagu]

 

The chaos refresh is nice, they didn't do it for marines because the designers were getting sick of remaking the standard 5 unit types for marines over and over (tactical, assault, devastator, terminator and scout).

Now they can get sick of remaking the same 4 unit types over and over in Phobos, Tacticus, Ominis and Gravis flavours instead I guess.

 

I doubt these claims though that they were getting ‘sick’ of making these units specifically over and over again. They still update and make variant units for armies now. I think it’s more that they also want the chance to create new things as well as update. They have a lot of designers working for them so if someone was getting bored I’m sure they could ask to move into other army projects for variation and someone else could move onto marines.

I was also bored of the same, tired units. This change is needed - Change is good. Once we've seen the full picture and more releases we can judge more fairly. We've not seen the full potential of Primaris yet.

[Rik Lightstar]

 

The chaos refresh is nice, they didn't do it for marines because the designers were getting sick of remaking the standard 5 unit types for marines over and over (tactical, assault, devastator, terminator and scout).

Now they can get sick of remaking the same 4 unit types over and over in Phobos, Tacticus, Ominis and Gravis flavours instead I guess.

 

I doubt these claims though that they were getting ‘sick’ of making these units specifically over and over again. They still update and make variant units for armies now. I think it’s more that they also want the chance to create new things as well as update. They have a lot of designers working for them so if someone was getting bored I’m sure they could ask to move into other army projects for variation and someone else could move onto marines.

 

 

I don't think the issue is so much that they were bored, unless someone knows different?

 

What I would say is that there's very little available design space within the "Classic Marine" range, there's been so much written that GW had basically backed themselves into a corner with finding it difficult to add things.

 

I remember the hate that got thrown at the 3 big additions to Space Marines previous to the Primaris, those being Centurions, the StormRaven and the StormTalon. They were all panned pretty widely at the time. There was a lot of sulking when Veterans got split into Sternguard and Vanguard too.

 

In no way is the Primaris range perfect, nor is the background, the release "method" seems to be following that of the StormCast from AoS which also isn't ideal. However, even having said all that, I think that in 18-24 moths time we'll have a much clearer picture. For those that don't like the Primaris now, just ignore them until that point then take a fresh look then.

 

Nobody is going to confiscate "Classic Marines" and having an army each of Classic and Primaris marines, neither side is getting particularly worse treatment in the rules.

 

Rik

[Ishagu]

GW can't win with some people. New units are hated, a redisign is hated, any lore change is hated.

 

The response to Centurions was comical when they were released. Lots of huffing and puffing. Now its the same thing with Primaris.

 

Maybe I am too positive, but it's infinitely better than hating everything and regurgitating the same complaints forever. I'm having a good time with the hobby, haters are not and I wonder why they are still invested if they can't move on. How poisoned must your attitude be if someone liking the new products upsets you? Stop and think about that.

[Panzer]

GW is winning though. Their sales are looking good and generally people seem to be happy about their new releases. It's just the vocal minority again.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Now they can get sick of remaking the same 4 unit types over and over in Phobos, Tacticus, Ominis and Gravis flavours instead I guess.

 

 

Sure, in another 30 years.

[Ishagu]

There's no question that GW are benefiting from their boldness.

[Rik Lightstar]

Maybe I am too positive. It's infinitely better than hating everything and regurgitating the same complaints forever.

 

It's the Avatar that does it I reckon.

 

Everyone just pictures you sat there with a fully painted* Primaris Army that you enjoy using, and smiling about it, and it makes them sad that they aren't as happy as you.

 

*Commission painting is not a bad thing either, nor is using an airbrush, as both of these points were raised earlier. I've been trying to stay conciliatory but I'll happily fight people over that.

 

Rik

[Ishagu]

Yeah there's no such thing as a right way to hobby.

 

The hobby encapsulates collecting, playing, painting, building, competition, reading, etc and all are of different values to individuals, and none are wrong.

 

I have some collectors pieces painted by an incredible painter that I keep as display models, seperate from my main gaming forces. Anyways, hobby habits are going off topic.

[Robbienw]

 

 

Now they can get sick of remaking the same 4 unit types over and over in Phobos, Tacticus, Ominis and Gravis flavours instead I guess.

 

 

Sure, in another 30 years.

Bold of you to assume they won’t get bored of Primaris for a whole 30 years :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

Hey as I've said many times... I've accepted that GW have gone Primaris and that ain't changing. I'd like to see some support for my own collection but I also think that won't happen anytime soon anyway, if it ever does.

 

I will participate in discussion when it is relevant and I certainly don't go into other threads and ruin the discussion about Primaris or anything else.

 

I mean, I bought some of those Conquest Mags for my kids as they liked a cheap Redemptor and some other cheap Primaris to paint. I don't lose anything in my army for that as the aesthetic change (size) isn't an issue since they're not my models.

 

I'm not AGAINST change or new.

[Robbienw]

I’m not against change or new stuff either. I love most of the new stuff that GW has brought out the last 2 or 3 years.

 

Just because I don’t like Primaris doesn’t mean I’m not very happy with everything else they have done. I’m enjoying the mechanicus army, the custodes, all the new specialist games necromunda and AT stuff, the Blackstone models, etc.

 

Also, change isn’t intrinsically good or bad. Something changing may be good for one person but bad for another. Not liking one new change doesn’t make you opposed to all change. The only people who use the all change is good argument are businesses who are forcing a contract change on employees, and people who can’t take other people not liking something new that they do. Lets leave that tired argument out in the cold where it belongs.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hey as I've said many times... I've accepted that GW have gone Primaris and that ain't changing. I'd like to see some support for my own collection but I also think that won't happen anytime soon anyway, if it ever does.

 

I will participate in discussion when it is relevant and I certainly don't go into other threads and ruin the discussion about Primaris or anything else.

 

I mean, I bought some of those Conquest Mags for my kids as they liked a cheap Redemptor and some other cheap Primaris to paint. I don't lose anything in my army for that as the aesthetic change (size) isn't an issue since they're not my models.

 

I'm not AGAINST change or new.

Don’t bother defending yourself, Idaho. They’re never going to believe you should be allowed to be anything but happy with your favorite things getting trashed.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Bold of you to assume they won’t get bored of Primaris for a whole 30 years 

Well they managed to tough out 30 years with a far more limited range, so you know...

[Sete]

I find it ironic that the usual suspects on defending the Primaris are worse than the ones that don't like them.

Its funny really.

 

Back on topic of no codex SM, really depends of when the vanguard standalone kits hit.

I would reckon that Ishagu rumour is  right, and maybe with the addition of a couple more units, the transports and heavy armour that are long rumoured, maybe veterans aswell, a Primaris only codex would be the way to go, with a few of the vehicles added. Like the flyers and drop pods. The chaos codex is going to be updated digitally for free, I can see the same happening to our OGmarines codex.

 

I still stand by that all the chapters should be in this codex. Fewer units will clear a bit of space for more CT pages, and this is an opportunity to cut on several chapters that have characters bloat, and also add a few to other chapters.

The organization will be the same, as it seems GW is moving towards an uniform primaris squad organization, so no crusader squads or grey hunters, but maybe they will add specialist units like sword brethren, ravenwing, sanguinary guard etc.

 

Love it or hate it, they still don't have a unit with chainswords. and that's unforgivable. ;)