Konrad Curze: The Night Haunter

[Kilofix]

Oh I almost also forgot the whole Expanse - “Flip and Burn” thing. And the crucifix rats. And finger snacks.

 

Minor but interesting.

[SkimaskMohawk]

For the split personality thing, I'd call it a maybe like a lot of the night lord ambiguity. When he tells the emperor he regrets accepting Konrad curze, it's because he was weak and a hypocrite, while the night haunted was a monster but strong. So he obviously saw some difference, but this is at the apex of his madness. When he's having some vision induced fits earlier in the time line, he never considers any one but himself responsible. Which weighs him down as the people he killed weren't guilty from anything.

[mc warhammer]

 

Do we get anything on his early mentoring by Fulgrim or being confronted by Dorn about his visions?

This book has the Night Haunter saying he went to both Dorn and Fulgrim to warn them but was called a monster

 

 

 

would be interesting to see dorn reflect on this in hindsight of the heresy

 looking forward to this. i can't really argue against some of the critiques on haley's plotting or pacing but i feel he's one of the stable's best when it comes to exploring a character. i could read an entire 18 primarch series from him on that basis

[Lord Abaia]

For the split personality thing, I'd call it a maybe like a lot of the night lord ambiguity. When he tells the emperor he regrets accepting Konrad curze, it's because he was weak and a hypocrite, while the night haunted was a monster but strong. So he obviously saw some difference, but this is at the apex of his madness. When he's having some vision induced fits earlier in the time line, he never considers any one but himself responsible. Which weighs him down as the people he killed weren't guilty from anything.

That makes sense. There is enough room left for a split personality Curze/ Haunter to still be feasible without it being overtly referenced.

 

Curze's descent from feeling responsible for killing innocents during his episodes to "everyone is guilty of something I can kill whoever I want because I'm bored," is actually pretty poignant.

 

One other thing I just realized about the book was that Haley spared us any mention of Konrad's malevolent murder maze and any of the other events from Vulkan Lives.

[helterskelter]

I think Curze mentions it in passing when he says "I had a pet once" but that could be my misinterpretation :p

[Kelborn]

@MC Warhammer: I fully agree with you. I loved Lorgar, the Khan and Russ but those written by Haley were pure gold in terms of characterising the Primarchs and showing us their flaws, etc. Those end dialogues in Corax and Perturabo were superb!

 

@Helterskelter: "I had a pet once" - Wouldn't be surprised if he was talking about Vulkan. :D That's why I love Curze and the Night Lords!

[Kenzaburo]

I think Curze mentions it in passing when he says "I had a pet once" but that could be my misinterpretation

This was actually in reference to his slave / the lone survivor of his ship massacre. The last thing Curzes says at the end of each chapter is usually referencing his next narration. And the way he treats that poor wretch (can't remember his name) is very akin to a pet - he's nothing more to him. That way the references stay more in line with the content of the book. I understand how you could see him meaning Vulkan though, even tho I don't think that's how it was meant.

 

About that split personality thing: Curze does not show usual signs of that, really. When he talks about the Night Haunter himself, he uses it to reference his life on Nostramo more than anything else. He was Konrad Curze ever after meeting the Emperor - it's what he points out at the end of the book, the one thing he would change in his life, defying the Emperor. He sees his existence as a bringer of judgement as a more pure existence, without having to exist in the greater conflict of the universe and especially being plagued by visions of the heresy. 

 

His madness stems from the visions itself, which cause him to believe that fate is real, there's no choice. And even though his visions seem to suggest it, a minor part of him keeps doubting that. Not sure, if waht he sees is real, if people can be trustet, not sure if the Emperor can be trusted (why else would Horus turn against him?), he loses his mind, more and more. That's what his final vision/conversation points out - believing in fate, not in his agency set him down the wrong path. 

[OnboardG1]

I’m only about half way through it but I’m enjoying it so far. There are a few points where his behaviour veers into the slightly cartoonish but that kind of ties in to one of the minor themes where he is playing the expected role of a monster as well as, yknow, actually being a monster. Curze actually has quite a deep insight into human nature thanks to his visions and that helps him be an effective terror and unravels his sanity.

[RedFurioso]

 

Curze in referring to his dead loyalist brothers, mentions a beheaded Ferrus, a cut down Sanguinius, and a Dorn torn to pieces.

Surely Dorn was killed during the First Black Crusade, centuries after Konrad's death in ~200.M31? 

[nagashnee]

 

 

Curze in referring to his dead loyalist brothers, mentions a beheaded Ferrus, a cut down Sanguinius, and a Dorn torn to pieces.

Surely Dorn was killed during the First Black Crusade, centuries after Konrad's death in ~200.M31? 

 

You know he can see the future right? Its kinda a core part of his character.

[RedFurioso]

 

 

 

Curze in referring to his dead loyalist brothers, mentions a beheaded Ferrus, a cut down Sanguinius, and a Dorn torn to pieces.

Surely Dorn was killed during the First Black Crusade, centuries after Konrad's death in ~200.M31? 

 

You know he can see the future right? Its kinda a core part of his character.

 

If I understand correctly, he referring to already dead primarchs.

[bluntblade]

 

 

Curze in referring to his dead loyalist brothers, mentions a beheaded Ferrus, a cut down Sanguinius, and a Dorn torn to pieces.

Surely Dorn was killed during the First Black Crusade, centuries after Konrad's death in ~200.M31?

He's canonically seen it before.

[Kelborn]

Question ist, did he had those specific visions before he met the Emperor or did they come bit by bit?

 

That would leave the Dark King & Lightning Tower in a different light.

[bluntblade]

They came as he met each of those three brothers. Dorn cut down by "a thousand murderers", Ferrus' eyeless skull in armoured hands, and the merest impression of something slithering and laughing for Fulgrim.

[Kenzaburo]

Question ist, did he had those specific visions before he met the Emperor or did they come bit by bit?

 

That would leave the Dark King & Lightning Tower in a different light.

Visions of his brothers' deaths came over time, as well as visions of the heresy itself. He didn't have those on Nostramo, at least that's implied in the text. He started to have more and more visions of the heresy some time before The Dark King, at a point in time, where his legion was already falling, but all others still seemed normal and intact.

 

It is the heresy visions, that make him start to doubt Big E, because he can't believe golden boy Horus would turn against him, if there weren't a proper reason. And so he has the idea of "What if Big E really did something wrong/committed a crime..." and so on. And because Curze struggles with looking at these visions from multiple perspectives but rather tends to see the worst outcome as the most probable, his insanity worsens...once again.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Haley is like your generic Dragon Ball protagonist. The more he writes the better he gets. Kind of like how Goku and Vegeta and company need 20 episodes of screaming to raise their power levels to infinity.

[aa.logan]

This may well have been my favourite of the Primarch books so far; the episodic nature of the story gave us a nice look at why Curze is Curze, no massive revelations but rounds him and his Legion out nicely. Just the sort of thing the series should be doing.

 

The way the stories are framed and told by Haley adds an awful lot to the story; the Russ book, while really very good, uses a not dissimilar device that didn’t make as much of a difference to the tone as Curze acting as

his own narrator

[Apothecary Vaddon]

We can also kill one of Valraks fan theories about a certain fist related individual returning

Eh...that view kind of deliberately ignores one of the main themes of the novel. Whether or not Curze was right and whether the futures he saw did come to fruition is separate from his inability to realize that he was the master of his own fate (moreover, fate itself could be swayed, nothing is written in stone). His choices lead him down the path that he saw for himself. I'd agree that it's likely that our golden homeboy is dead, but I'd also point out that futures that Curze saw aren't immutable. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Apothecary Vaddon

[Lord_Caerolion]

Just had my limited edition arrive, and damn is it beautiful. Lastly, after being what I'm going to assume is one of the last people to have ordered it, I still somehow managed to get copy 23.

[helterskelter]

 

 

We can also kill one of Valraks fan theories about a certain fist related individual returning

Eh...that view kind of deliberately ignores one of the main themes of the novel. Whether or not Curze was right and whether the futures he saw did come to fruition is separate from his inability to realize that he was the master of his own fate (moreover, fate itself could be swayed, nothing is written in stone). His choices lead him down the path that he saw for himself. I'd agree that it's likely that our golden homeboy is dead, but I'd also point out that futures that Curze saw aren't immutable.

Except that it was mentioned right next to Ferrus and Sanguinius, both super dead.

 

Edit: Whilst Curzes visions of the future took him down the negative path, and people ignoring him and mistreating him drove him further down the path to darkness ultimately leading to him believing in the worst of his predictions, he still and always has known how everyone he meets dies, it's been said in this thread, he predicted the death and then in this book he confirmed the death, as with the other 2.

 

Edit edit - except sevatar

Edited May 23, 2019 by helterskelter

[Kenzaburo]

 

 

We can also kill one of Valraks fan theories about a certain fist related individual returning

Eh...that view kind of deliberately ignores one of the main themes of the novel. Whether or not Curze was right and whether the futures he saw did come to fruition is separate from his inability to realize that he was the master of his own fate (moreover, fate itself could be swayed, nothing is written in stone). His choices lead him down the path that he saw for himself. I'd agree that it's likely that our golden homeboy is dead, but I'd also point out that futures that Curze saw aren't immutable.

Except that it was mentioned right next to Ferrus and Sanguinius, both super dead.

 

Edit: Whilst Curzes visions of the future took him down the negative path, and people ignoring him and mistreating him drove him further down the path to darkness ultimately leading to him believing in the worst of his predictions, he still and always has known how everyone he meets dies, it's been said in this thread, he predicted the death and then in this book he confirmed the death, as with the other 2.

 

Edit edit - except sevatar

 

But Vaddon is right, I think. The episode where he's struggling with the two possible futures of the boy on Nostramo shows us, that at times he simply discards a brighter outcome. And the final conversations underline the fact, that he himself chose a darker fate for himself, it was not chosen for him.

 

At the point where Curze mentions Dorn's death, the Praetorian is far from dead, he's still alive. It's mentioned by the hauler crew that the living loyal Primarchs are still gathering on Terra - Curze's death is set, what, maybe 100 years after the heresy? Curze mentions Perturabo and Sanguinius dead, but I wouldn't bet on Dorn's fate being set in stone. I maintain the fact, that Curze, his visions and lots of the narration are highly unreliable and that it is sometimes hard to say, whether he's right or not. But that's the fun of his character - in a way he's rotten to the core and at the same time not. At times he seems entirely reasonable and misunderstood and at other times he reveals, that he might have been a monster all the time, from early on.

[Knockagh]

Just had my limited edition arrive, and damn is it beautiful. Lastly, after being what I'm going to assume is one of the last people to have ordered it, I still somehow managed to get copy 23.

Jammy sod. I’ve bought them all to date and always end up with 1???. Always hungered after a nice low number.

[aa.logan]

 

Just had my limited edition arrive, and damn is it beautiful. Lastly, after being what I'm going to assume is one of the last people to have ordered it, I still somehow managed to get copy 23.

Jammy sod. I’ve bought them all to date and always end up with 1???. Always hungered after a nice low number.

I’m always super early to order and end up high,I’m pretty sure they start at copy 2,500 and work backwards

[Knockagh]

 

 

Just had my limited edition arrive, and damn is it beautiful. Lastly, after being what I'm going to assume is one of the last people to have ordered it, I still somehow managed to get copy 23.

Jammy sod. I’ve bought them all to date and always end up with 1???. Always hungered after a nice low number.

I’m always super early to order and end up high,I’m pretty sure they start at copy 2,500 and work backwards

I think your right, I also order right off the bat. I don’t really fancy playing chicken to try and get a low number by waiting until they almost sell out though!

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

At the point where Curze mentions Dorn's death, the Praetorian is far from dead, he's still alive. It's mentioned by the hauler crew that the living loyal Primarchs are still gathering on Terra - Curze's death is set, what, maybe 100 years after the heresy? Curze mentions Perturabo and Sanguinius dead, but I wouldn't bet on Dorn's fate being set in stone. I maintain the fact, that Curze, his visions and lots of the narration are highly unreliable and that it is sometimes hard to say, whether he's right or not. But that's the fun of his character - in a way he's rotten to the core and at the same time not. At times he seems entirely reasonable and misunderstood and at other times he reveals, that he might have been a monster all the time, from early on.

 

 

Not disagreeing with you, but the crew are very much shown to be isolated, with not much outside contact. I don't exactly trust them to have an up-to-date knowledge of which Primarchs are where.