Konrad Curze: The Night Haunter

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I enjoyed this well enough.

 

I do think that simply as a reading experience, it's one of Haley's best. Unlike Perturabo, it's quite even in quality, and packs more of an emotional punch than Corax (though Corax needed a decent book far more than Curze does, so it's still my fave). The pacing is quick and no scene overstays it's welcome. Haley is moving nicely from "no style" back into his old quality, without any apparent drop in his release schedule, so I suppose that's nice. There are a lot of really well executed scenes here as well, and perhaps most impressively, Haley ducks and weaves through scenes we've already had in other stories, and never once does it feel like it. Every scene feels important, and the reader is never left with the feeling that an even bigger set piece was only just around the corner.

 

My issue is probably a completely unfair one; but you can't read Spurrier and Aaron and then tell me this is on the same level. Curze under their pens had such a fine subtlety to him, he was mad and pathetic yes, but never once did I feel he didn't possess the nobility and charisma the Emperor breeds into all his sons. With them, I always believed Curze had once been a misguided but mighty figure, a warped hero of myth. Here Curze is just a madman, I do feel pity that his self-fulfilling prophecies put his head in such a dark place, but he seemed destined for failure from the very beginning, not from some unfortunate future-sight, but because he was always that way. And I can't find that anywhere near as compelling. Certainly, Haley does madman Curze better than everyone else, he does backflips over Thorpe, Kyme, Annandale, even Abnett, and I did like that the humans who encountered him still felt he was paradoxically beautiful. I just can't help but feel Curze was done a disservice by a large role in the Heresy series. For all his screen time and "development," nothing but Prince of Crows can hold a candle to Soul Hunter or Lord of the Night, and he's dead in those works.

 

My bias keeps me from even assigning an arbitrary numerical rating to this one. I do think it's a good book even if it doesn't quite reach what I'd hoped, and if you have even a passing tolerance for Curze in the Heresy series you should definitely check it out. I'll probably still collect it if it ever drops in softback, especially for answering certain questions in the wake of Ruinstorm.

Completely opposite for me. I thought Haley's Curze was the best yet, because of the fundamental questions his asks; what was the purpose of Curze, and the delicious irony that's written in the character from the very beginning of his story in the bowels of Nostramo. His nobility flashed, but the darkness occluded it. And in a way his entire tale was a cavalcade of terribly wrong decisions, even when his foresight was showing him better paths. 

 

He was never a warped hero, imo, only the worst sycophants of his legion may have thought so. He was always the monster in the dark, but he could've chosen not to be, and I thought Haley drove that point home amazingly.

[b1soul]

I don't think he was a noble man with a small seed of darkness. He was more of a vicious instrument with some aspirations/pretensions to a greater cause, but he enjoyed the screaming...a lot.

[aa.logan]

I think the dead know it pretty well, at least in Kurze's case. In Guilliman's they were on the receiving end of chainswords and bolt-shells admittedly, but if the Night Lords get you then you'll be in a skinning pit and your lifespan is "until the screaming stops".

Neither the bolter or chain sword sound like they’d result in ‘nice’ deaths.

 

A few thousand dead in the skinning pits leads to three neighbouring systems surrendering without resistance.

 

What I’ve liked most about the Heresy and the Primarchs series in particular is the re-framing And reconsideration of what Marines are for. They are horrible, horrible weapons. Admittedly, they occasionally have personalities that are fun to read about, but regardless of weather their blue armour has lightning and skin draped across it or numerals and golden eagles they operate outside our morality.

 

All the Primarchs and their legions are hulking giants twisted from base level humanity, bred for war and conquest in a wholly unsubtle fashion. It’s nice to see Curze, the mad, psychpathic and broken Primarch acknowledge this truth.

[bluntblade]

In the bits I've read, it was one person by home on every resisting world later on. If the likes of Rogal "do not look to us for kindness" Dorn view Kurze's deeds as distinctly monstrous (in the context of the Crusade) I'd say there's something in it.

 

No argument on the B or C being a bad way to go, but at least that way you'll never know what hit you.

[b1soul]

You're barely going to feel being splattered by an Ultramarine's bolter or chainsword.

You're going to experience days of excruciating, screaming agony under the torture instruments of the Night Lords.

In the real world, torture is generally banned among nations even in wartime and civilians are supposed to be off-limits. You especially don't torture civilians to shorten a conflict. Imagine if it were otherwise. That's what you'd get in a world adhering to Curze's morality. No act is too grotesque if it expedites the end of a conflict. Think about the implications of that. What would men do to each other, what would men do to women and children to terrorise their foes?

According to Curze's morality, it would be sound policy to vivisect infants and toddlers if it would shock their parents into submission. Frankly, I don't think Curze's methods can be compared favorably at all with the likes of Guilliman's and  Dorn's. Bad stuff happens in war, but you don't deliberately engineer pain and atrocity to scare your enemies. Well, of course you could, but then you'd be evil.  

[1ncarnadine]

You're barely going to feel being splattered by an Ultramarine's bolter or chainsword.

 

You're going to experience days of excruciating, screaming agony under the torture instruments of the Night Lords.

 

In the real world, torture is generally banned among nations even in wartime and civilians are supposed to be off-limits. You especially don't torture civilians to shorten a conflict. Imagine if it were otherwise. That's what you'd get in a world adhering to Curze's morality. No act is too grotesque if it expedites the end of a conflict. Think about the implications of that. What would men do to each other, what would men do to women and children to terrorise their foes?

According to Curze's morality, it would be sound policy to vivisect infants and toddlers if it would shock their parents into submission. Frankly, I don't think Curze's methods can be compared favorably at all with the likes of Guilliman's and  Dorn's. Bad stuff happens in war, but you don't deliberately engineer pain and atrocity to scare your enemies. Well, of course you could, but then you'd be evil.  

 

ok, but, war is hell. The bolter and chainsword aren't just killing people. There are casualties who are being incapacitated from the bone shards from their squad-mate's ribcage exploding from a boltshell, and plenty who just have an arm or leg lopped off by a chainsword. There's screaming, permanent maiming, long-term suffering everywhere, and it's near-impossible to keep civilians out of all combat. Want to strategically shell a small part of a hive? Be prepared for that ferrocrete dust to get everywhere, through sub-tunnels in these extremely built-up cities and industrial centers, and cause whole generations to get ultra lung cancer. Are the Ultramarines going to be presented with options where civilians are totally spared all the time, or are they going to often have to select from the best of a number of unfortunate scenarios?

[SkimaskMohawk]

If you vivisect 1000 children and a whole planet surrenders, is that not better thank killing millions of people in war and destroying their infrastructure?

 

That's the thing, they knew they were performing terrible acts, but to achieve a far more bloodless compliance.

[mc warhammer]

quality of death is as important as quality of life. it’s not just a numbers game

[SkimaskMohawk]

According to what though? Even noble primarchs like sanguinius use rad and phosphex weapons. Stuff that brutally kills people as well as permanently tainting the planet. The legions massacre their way through resistance; first heretic has remembrancers not recording their assault as it doesn't portray them in the right light.

 

And big E only cares about the number of compliances. That was the point, to have as much of humanity following his Truth, as fast as possible; the crusade had a timetable. The Night Lords had unpalatable methods, but its hard to argue with the results. That's why every primarch curze debates tends to look really dumb, really fast.

[b1soul]

"If you vivisect 1000 children and a whole planet surrenders, is that not better thank killing millions of people in war and destroying their infrastructure?"

 

That would not be generally accepted morality among civilised nations. There are rules of engagement. Torturing little children (or anyone) is not an acceptable way to reduce fatalities. Morality is not simply a numbers game. There are principles as well. Also, when you deliberatley employ torture against the civilians of a powerful foe, you encourage the foe to so the same to your civilians. That's a vicious cycle you don't want to kick off.

[aa.logan]

"If you vivisect 1000 children and a whole planet surrenders, is that not better thank killing millions of people in war and destroying their infrastructure?"

That would not be generally accepted morality among civilised nations. There are rules of engagement. Torturing little children (or anyone) is not an acceptable way to reduce fatalities. Morality is not simply a numbers game. There are principles as well. Also, when you deliberatley employ torture against the civilians of a powerful foe, you encourage the foe to so the same to your civilians. That's a vicious cycle you don't want to kick off.

We’re talking about the Imperium of Mam, not ‘Civilised nations’ though. Cut it however you want, the Imperium is, by any contemporary set of standards, immoral. There are no civilians. There are no rules of engagement. War is absolutely a numbers game. The vicious cycle is more than 10,000 years old.

 

Yes, Curze is a monster. But so is Russ. And Mortarion. And Yarrick. And Dante. And Corax. Etc.

[SkimaskMohawk]

"If you vivisect 1000 children and a whole planet surrenders, is that not better thank killing millions of people in war and destroying their infrastructure?"

 

That would not be generally accepted morality among civilised nations. There are rules of engagement. Torturing little children (or anyone) is not an acceptable way to reduce fatalities. Morality is not simply a numbers game. There are principles as well. Also, when you deliberatley employ torture against the civilians of a powerful foe, you encourage the foe to so the same to your civilians. That's a vicious cycle you don't want to kick off.

Logan already mentioned it, but the imperium isn't "nations" and the rules of engagement are as follows; if human, offer to join the imperium, if refused war them until they lose and they surrender to the imperium. If they have sentient bots or employ other proscribed tech, kill them all. The emperor is immoral for the reason that the ends justify the means; the survival of the species is at stake, and the faster he can achieve that goal and save humanity from Chris, the better.

 

How is unleashing the world eaters on a system better than the night lords on a city? Or the ultramarines, or the sons of horus. I've said it before, the emperor has a plan for the species and an enormous fleet that has a ton of logistics behind that's supposed to meet deadlines.

 

Also, I recall Guilliman disliked the alpha legions methods for being too time consuming and devastating to the infrastructure of a planet compared to the results of a straightforward war. But the night lords are wrong because their faster and non destructive methods are bad and mean. They should just kill everyone like the normal space marines do.

 

And there's no entity as powerful as the imperium.

[Kelborn]

Back to topic, please.

It's about Curze. Overall discussion about Primarchs being intended monsters or not can be continued in another thread.

[bluntblade]

I would just mention (and this is relevant to my second point which is on-topic) that the NL killed in massive quantities too, especially towards the time of the Heresy.

 

While the SoH, Ultras and others practiced methods which would leave a planet largely intact for integration, they ruled through fear and only fear. On Nostromo it never gave way to proper government which would last.

 

And as promised, second point/question: is there any sense of a timescale for Curze's deterioration and the Legion's? Are there generational divides within the NL? Previously I can only think of Var Jahan being Terran, though that didn't manifest in any difference beyond him being more reserved (indeed, FW has him in command of the take-one-from-every-shack-in-every-town campaign).

[Kelborn]

There's a great short about the Terran born chief librarian, Zho Sahal. It depicts his pov during the downfall up until his exile. Forgot the name, though.

[b1soul]

We are discussing Curze's methods, which is relevant to this topic. 

 

@aa.logan

I am not talking about just what the Imperium of Man does...I'm also talking about what's right and what's wrong. But Curze's ways, especially toward the end of the GC, are looked upon with disapproval even within the brutal dictatorship that is the Imperium

Curze's methods are criticised by Guilliman, Dorn, Magnus etc. This tells me that "civilised" primarchs like Guilliman and co. have moralities more compatible with that of our world. I'm thinking even the likes of Russ, who is still a warrior at heart, would find Curze's sadism to be wayward.

 

The World Eaters and the Night Lords were the two legions that had gone off the deep end by the late GC. But I'd still rather be cut down by a frothing berserker than be tortured for weeks by the NL terror squads until I can't even scream anymore because my vocal chords have ruptured already.  

 

If you can't see the difference between being invaded by the UM, who try to avoid civilian casualties to the extent possible (but of course some civilian casualties, perhaps even very large civilian casualties, can't be avoided) and being invaded by the NL, who deliberately target men/women/children/elderly with tortures designed to inflict maximum gruesome prolonged suffering before death . . . I guess we simply don't see eye to eye on this matter.  

[SkimaskMohawk]

Guilliman and Magnus and co sure don't agree with his methodology. But when he starts stating the facts about speed and casualties and the rest, they tend not to have anything to answer with.

 

Also, their opinions are just that, opinions. Horus is warmaster; the emperor has overall authority. The other primarchs can think what they want, but it won't necessarily be representative of the emperor's opinion. See how he let the world eaters do their thing and Russ unilaterally tried to stop him.

[mc warhammer]

the original query was what would the opinion of the conquered dead be (if they weren’t...uh...dead), not what’s the imperium’s opinion, or the emperor’s, or guilliman’s

 

curze’s sadism would definitely have made for grumpier ghosts of forced compliance than guilliman’s. if the great crusade night lords had “come for me” (lol), i’d definitely be in the warp bitching and moaning about how the ghosts of ultramarine campaigns had it easy and never had to put up with the hard work and sweat i did to earn my death. damn snowflakes

 

kurze has always been the blindest of primarchs in each story i’ve read, despite his ability to see the future. or maybe because of it. he probably tells himself his murder spree is on the same level as the other legions

 

on a tangent, haley does like to have his primarchs get their hypocrisy thrown in their face by the last chapter. pert has his sister and curze has his meat puppet

[Roomsky]

There's a great short about the Terran born chief librarian, Zho Sahal. It depicts his pov during the downfall up until his exile. Forgot the name, though.

 

The Black Library website classifies Lord of the Night as an eshort for some reason, maybe you're thinking of the novel? As far as I can find, Sahaal doesn't have any short stories dedicated to him.

 

I'm glad people find Haley's Curze so compelling, and I don't seek to change minds. My personal takeaway is that Curze and the Night Lords used to be Heart of Darkness in space, and I don't believe anyone but ADB or Spurrier (especially Spurrier) capture that. Perhaps you find it more poignant that Konrad was Monsterman McCrazypants from day 1, but I really just don't.

 

To each their own.

[mc warhammer]

i’d actually like to read a curze that started out with genuinely noble intentions who went batcrap crazy on his own neuroses rather than magicsword/nails/warp/nightmaresaboutnothavingastatue being the culprit. i just don’t know if any writer has really put that forward yet. even spurrier (who is writing some of the best modern comics imo) subverted that idea

 

perty is probably the only one with that kinda arc

[helterskelter]

He had to develop his own version of intentions, he raised himself, punished all wrong doing with death (the red hands thing seems to have fallen by the wayside), and went mad over the course of time due to his own defeatist attitude towards his visions, and the growing intensity of those visions, and rejections by his brothers time and time again despite being right.

He's never always been batcrap, but simultaneously no one ever gave him the time of day. He's got no real relationships with any of his brothers, he doesn't have a subsidiary father figure, and the father he has in the Emperor hasn't done anything for him.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

What bothers me, to quite a massive degree frankly, is that this never EVER gets addressed. Its a massively omnipotent being (god emperor) being unable to act with basic parental instinct and confront some of these horrific realities he has inflicted upon his own sons.

 

For god sake, if you can't be there to be a father send the poor sons of ditches to rehab, or at least TRY to spend some quality time, sit down and speak to the troubled ones, soul bind him to help remove these horrific visions.

 

Literally almost every possibility to help konrad was there, just not once used.

[Brother Lunkhead]

What bothers me, to quite a massive degree frankly, is that this never EVER gets addressed. Its a massively omnipotent being (god emperor) being unable to act with basic parental instinct and confront some of these horrific realities he has inflicted upon his own sons.

 

For god sake, if you can't be there to be a father send the poor sons of ditches to rehab, or at least TRY to spend some quality time, sit down and speak to the troubled ones, soul bind him to help remove these horrific visions.

 

Literally almost every possibility to help konrad was there, just not once used.

 

That was somewhat my view too when I first came to the 30K/40Kverse so many years ago. However, I think the Emperor, after so many millennia is too far removed from humanity to have those kinds of feelings any more (if he ever did at all). To the Emperor there is just the dream for humanity, and the Primarchs are just another tool in service to that dream. To him, everything and everyone is just a means to that end. However much I wish it wasn't so, too much of what I read says it is.... makes me sad 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Exactly, it doesn't really build tension or reverence for me in anyway with Konrad.

 

Its just really depressing.

[DarkChaplain]

I can only point at The Dark King again. Curze clashes with Dorn over his methods, and continued "judgement" of a conquered world.

 

 

‘No,’ said Dorn, placing a golden gauntlet on his shoulder guard. ‘We are liberators, not destroyers, brother. We bring the light of illumination, not death. We must govern with benevolence if these people are ever to recognise our authority in this galaxy.’

Curze flinched at the touch, resenting the easy friendship Dorn pretended.

Bilious anger bubbled invisibly beneath his skin, but if Dorn was aware of it, he gave no sign.

‘These people resisted us and must pay the penalty for that crime,’ said Curze. ‘Obedience to the Imperium will come from the fear of punishment, you know that as well as anyone, Dorn. Kill those that resisted and the others will learn the lesson that to oppose us is to die.’

Dorn shook his head, taking his arm to lead him away from the curious stares their heated discussion was attracting. ‘You are wrong, but we should speak of this in private.’

‘No,’ said Curze, angrily shrugging off Dorn’s grip. ‘You think these people will bend the knee meekly to us because we show compassion? Mercy is for the weak and foolish. It will only breed corruption and eventual betrayal. Fear of reprisals will keep the rest of this planet in check, not benevolence.’

Dorn sighed. ‘And the hatred planted in those you leave alive will pass from one generation to the next until this world is engulfed in a war the cause of which none of those fighting will remember. It will never end, don’t you see that? Hate only breeds hate and the Imperium cannot be built upon such bloody foundations.’

‘All empires are forged in blood,’ said Curze. ‘To pretend otherwise is naïve. The rule of law cannot be maintained by the blind hope that human nature is inherently good. Haven’t we seen enough to know that ultimately the mass of humanity must be forced into compliance?’

 

We've had many accounts of the Night Lords getting worse over the course of the Crusade, to the point where Horus, Jaghatai and Vulkan all made to apprehend Curze, in time to see Nostramo explode. Other Primarchs tried to set him straight in their own ways, commented on his spiralling behavior, but Curze kept digging deeper until he completely lost it after the Heresy broke and his visions started becoming a sheer inevitability to him.

 

It's not like Curze never had a purposeful view on things, that he never followed his own principles and just was a crazy madman hungry for torture. He firmly believed that his methods were the right way to do things, up to a point. And when that stopped being so effective, he'd just go harder on it next time.

Where Corax believed in some lofty ideal of liberating worlds with his guerrilla tactics, Curze actively used the tools of oppression to force compliance. Curze did never truly believe in the concept of loyalty, and it shows in his Legion. He never experienced true compassion and loyalty in the first place, whereas somebody like Corax did. I think that may be the biggest difference between both, when so many parallels exist: Corax was raised with compassion, Curze with treachery and the worst of humanity in front of him, unable to trust anyone at all.

 

Curze believes that as soon as he'll turn his back on something or someone, they'll be jabbing him with a knife, right in the middle of his back. The way his Legion works reinforces that. He has no faith in humanity, no matter what others want to tell him. His entire belief system is built around needing to be someone others fear to oppose.