BSB Speculation

[taikishi]

It's not the lack of pictures that makes me thing the release was rushed. It was:

 

* still only two generic HQs, only one of which is Sororitas

* still only one troops choice (would be nice to have some variety)

* lack of Minor order traits after giving such to Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar in books that released prior to this one

* loss of storm bolters, power mauls, and (for a canoness) eviscerators on models that already possessed said weapon options in pewter

* Dominions losing their scout move on transports

* units inexplicably going up in price, especially the Immolator, missionaries and preachers

* 17ppm S3 power swords

* Celestians being one of the most complained about units and their buff is negligible at best

* Geminae receiving no buffs to make them playable (2W characters with T3 still die to stiff breezes)

* doing everything they could to deliver on a 2019 release for an army that, after re-reading the codex from the video reviews, probably could have withstood another 3-6 months of playtesting

 

The lack of pictures just tells me the models weren't finished when the codex went off to printers 3-4 months ago.

Edited November 18, 2019 by taikishi

[Montford]

I may be reassigning my Gemiane models to be Zephyrim :)

[Slasher956]

It's not the lack of pictures that makes me thing the release was rushed. It was:

 

* still only two generic HQs, only one of which is Sororitas

* still only one troops choice (would be nice to have some variety)

* lack of Minor order traits after giving such to Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar in books that released prior to this one

* loss of storm bolters, power mauls, and (for a canoness) eviscerators on models that already possessed said weapon options in pewter

* Dominions losing their scout move on transports

* units inexplicably going up in price, especially the Immolator, missionaries and preachers

* 17ppm S3 power swords

* Celestians being one of the most complained about units and their buff is negligible at best

* Geminae receiving no buffs to make them playable (2W characters with T3 still die to stiff breezes)

* doing everything they could to deliver on a 2019 release for an army that, after re-reading the codex from the video reviews, probably could have withstood another 3-6 months of playtesting

 

The lack of pictures just tells me the models weren't finished when the codex went off to printers 3-4 months ago.

 

 

1 - This reads to me to be more model limited... they couldnt work out how to do 2 distinctly separate Sister HQ models, as well as the removal of Jacobus.

2 - Argree... they could have just done religious mobs and give us rules that work with Necromunda gang models...

3 - Sorry but we've only just got the equivalent of major faction rules, there is no need for the minor orders to get rules for a couple of years... give the faction expansion room

4 - What Power mauls have gone as well?  Storm bolters I can understand as there has been no offical model... however it feels to me like negative feed back of the 5 stormbolter domion squad...

5 - again this reads as negative feedback from the beta... or proof reading failure

6 - once again we dont know the type and source of the beta feed back...if lots of battle reports had these units in then they may well have seen them as undercosted not that the alternatives where overcosted / limited

7 - 13 ppm before weapons... all depends on the rules the models have & other interactions ... some models are more expensive because of what they can be when buffed 'correctly'

8 - .... no comment until I've seen the rules on them and compared to what else there is... however I dont think there actually IS a viable solution for these girls in the current formation rules that doesnt overlap too much with another unit*...

9 - .... see point 8

10 - Overall I'm holding judgement unitl I get the codex in my hands.. there is the posibility that the 'dex was rushed as well as that it might take some time to work it out (took me 6 months to win a game with the beta list....)

 

* yeah changing units slots doesnt appear to have occurred to the codex writers!

[Lemondish]

It's not the lack of pictures that makes me thing the release was rushed. It was:

 

* still only two generic HQs, only one of which is Sororitas

* still only one troops choice (would be nice to have some variety)

* lack of Minor order traits after giving such to Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar in books that released prior to this one

* loss of storm bolters, power mauls, and (for a canoness) eviscerators on models that already possessed said weapon options in pewter

* Dominions losing their scout move on transports

* units inexplicably going up in price, especially the Immolator, missionaries and preachers

* 17ppm S3 power swords

* Celestians being one of the most complained about units and their buff is negligible at best

* Geminae receiving no buffs to make them playable (2W characters with T3 still die to stiff breezes)

* doing everything they could to deliver on a 2019 release for an army that, after re-reading the codex from the video reviews, probably could have withstood another 3-6 months of playtesting

 

The lack of pictures just tells me the models weren't finished when the codex went off to printers 3-4 months ago.

 

I see you've jumped to a conclusion that I don't think any of those particularly mean, but I understand this is important to you so I'll just leave it at that. 

 

I think it's a pretty solid, effective army with an interesting and tactically exciting mechanic that creates a situation where some of the things you've highlighted as negatives are greatly mitigated in exciting ways. I like that a lot. Sure, it's not Eldar Flying Circus or Space Marine levels of competitive, but that is fine by me. I need an army that isn't getting me the stink eye each time I unpack it, and I'd personally love to see more armies take after this book than any other potential option. 

 

But that's just my view. I'll gladly take 100 codexes of this power level over ever receiving another situation as the trifecta of broken the space marine releases have become. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Lemondish

[taikishi]

 

It's not the lack of pictures that makes me thing the release was rushed. It was:

 

* still only two generic HQs, only one of which is Sororitas

* still only one troops choice (would be nice to have some variety)

* lack of Minor order traits after giving such to Marines, Eldar and Dark Eldar in books that released prior to this one

* loss of storm bolters, power mauls, and (for a canoness) eviscerators on models that already possessed said weapon options in pewter

* Dominions losing their scout move on transports

* units inexplicably going up in price, especially the Immolator, missionaries and preachers

* 17ppm S3 power swords

* Celestians being one of the most complained about units and their buff is negligible at best

* Geminae receiving no buffs to make them playable (2W characters with T3 still die to stiff breezes)

* doing everything they could to deliver on a 2019 release for an army that, after re-reading the codex from the video reviews, probably could have withstood another 3-6 months of playtesting

 

The lack of pictures just tells me the models weren't finished when the codex went off to printers 3-4 months ago.

 

 

1 - This reads to me to be more model limited... they couldnt work out how to do 2 distinctly separate Sister HQ models, as well as the removal of Jacobus.

2 - Argree... they could have just done religious mobs and give us rules that work with Necromunda gang models...

3 - Sorry but we've only just got the equivalent of major faction rules, there is no need for the minor orders to get rules for a couple of years... give the faction expansion room

4 - What Power mauls have gone as well?  Storm bolters I can understand as there has been no offical model... however it feels to me like negative feed back of the 5 stormbolter domion squad...

5 - again this reads as negative feedback from the beta... or proof reading failure

6 - once again we dont know the type and source of the beta feed back...if lots of battle reports had these units in then they may well have seen them as undercosted not that the alternatives where overcosted / limited

7 - 13 ppm before weapons... all depends on the rules the models have & other interactions ... some models are more expensive because of what they can be when buffed 'correctly'

8 - .... no comment until I've seen the rules on them and compared to what else there is... however I dont think there actually IS a viable solution for these girls in the current formation rules that doesnt overlap too much with another unit*...

9 - .... see point 8

10 - Overall I'm holding judgement unitl I get the codex in my hands.. there is the posibility that the 'dex was rushed as well as that it might take some time to work it out (took me 6 months to win a game with the beta list....)

 

* yeah changing units slots doesnt appear to have occurred to the codex writers!

 

 

13ppm before weapons, the only weapons (can pause video and read entry) for everyone but the Superior is bolt pistol + power sword. The Superior can replace her bolt pistol with a plasma pistol OR take a Zeryphim Pennant if she has one bolt pistol. Egro, 17ppm. Superior is more if you take a plasma pistol or pennant.

 

Running the numbers, a full squad of ten (170 pts) with no plasma pistol or pennant, and before Order Convictions, Sacred Rites, Stratagems, etc. averages between 4-8 dead MEQ in the fight phase 75.67% of the time. They kill between 5-7 MEQ 65.26% of the time, with the greatest probability being 6 (18.32%).

 

They're going to outpace an Imagifier, so the +1S tale will almost never apply to them. I'll run the Bloody Rose numbers, assuming charge, when I have more time.

 

Geminae might be better if they weren't 2W a pop and could charge/advance using Celestine's rolls if within 6" of her. I could also live with them being 2W a pop if Celestine could bring one back regardless of both being dead and could advance/charge with her. Breaking up the unit and the drawbacks of being two separate units are the biggest problem the Geminae have, even at 20ppm.

 

@Lemondish:

 

I agree that I don't want more Marine-level codexes; I just think this codex is still worse than Sisters Index. I'm not sure if it's better or worse than the beta-dex because of the things that went up in cost that really didn't need to go up in cost. As for my belief on it being rushed, I think everything goes back to "book needs more playtesting to be brought up a litte" vs "must get out before 2020 to deliver on promise".

 

The worst part is that no points adjustments are going to be made to this book before CA2020 and I genuinely believe there are changes that need to be made - both in terms of FAQ and points.

Edited November 18, 2019 by taikishi

[Slasher956]

Ironically I think the fallout of GW pushing back the sisters to March next year will be less overall* than they are going to get with whats happening

 

ie the pre-order that sold out in less than 2 hours with the added insult that LGS (& stores) dont know how many units they are going to get ...  & if there are glaring errors and internal balance issues....

 

As to CA20... well I cant find the price leak - but was CA19 on there?  If not then they might be doing a larger CA march time to pick up the errats from the 1st wave of Psychic Awakening books

 

 

*they did say Emperor willing 2019 after all! :p

[taikishi]

On Minor Order rules:

 

GW already knew it was setting up custom tactics, etc. with Space Marines 2.0 and Psychic Awakening. It makes more logical sense to include custom order convictions in the Sisters book since this seems to be the new norm going forward, but then GW doesn't get ~$140-$170 USD from players buying books to get all the rules they need using that model like (nearly) every other faction pays.

 

Where's the $170 number from?

$60 core rules

$40 codex

$40 Psychic Awakening

$30 Marine-dex supplements

[Marshal Loss]

Battle Sisters

No Adepta Sororitas army would be complete without a healthy core of Battle Sisters. The multipart kit will be PACKED with extras – weapons, shrines, a cherub, and the option to build squads of elite Celestians (with awesome Celestian helmets) or Dominions (the special weapons teams of the Adepta Sororitas).

Seraphim

The incoming multipart Seraphim combine the dynamic airborne poses you’d expect with a swath of optional extras. Of course, the holy trinity of bolter, flamer and melta is represented, as is a brand-new kit option – the elite combat-specialists of the Zephyrim.

Penitent Engine

And, of course, the Penitent Engine.

The new codex brings new options for this unhinged juggernaut of death, including new combat weapons and a new “shooty” alternative unit – the Mortifier.

 

Book confirmed for January

Edited November 18, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[ValourousHeart]

The new Mortifier from WHC.

 

 

And then their is this blurb.

 

 

The new codex itself features all these units and more. For those who do miss out on the Army Set, January is right around the corner, so you’ll be able to pre-order it in no time.

 

So looks like we'll be seeing our new stuff in January, or at least the first round of new stuff.

 

*edit* beat me to it.

Edited November 18, 2019 by ValourousHeart

[Rizara]

So based on the model, something I am wondering....is the moritfier also a repentia strapped in the harness, almost against her will?    The figure has the power node port on the leg as the repentia sculpts do, and the cloth shorts.  She also appears to be in pain, muscles sort of spasming, and she has a harness full of injected fluids and what appears to be tesla coils for shocking.   This is great for me, as I really don't care for the idea of having prisoners being tortured in war as the old penentint engines, but these being strapped with sisters in need of chastisment fits the fluff better for me.  I still don't understand the sister logic of hey lets send our melee troops into battle with zero armor, they wont make it across the field and get shot on the way.  It seems like a wasted logical tactic to send the melee troops into battle with nothing on, but it is 40k and apparently humanity seems to have lost any sense of logic and rhyme or reason, and the zealots are a bit more crazed maniacs who just want to rush in.  

 

Anyways, loving the new model so for the first time i may actually include a few of these walkers in my army.

[Servant of Dante]

@taikishi did you include the Zepharim re-roll wounds rule? Seems to me like the most likely result of 30 attacks hitting on 3+, wounding on 5s with full re-rolls then granting a 6+ save should kill more like 10 marines using straight averages (and assuming a normal distribution of results the mean and mode number of dead marines should be the same right?).

 

Edit: @Rizara: that’s the whole point of Repentia, for them to die on the battlefield as penance for whatever they did.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Servant of Dante

[taikishi]

Dante:

 

Yes. And it's only 21 attacks. 2 base, +1 for the Superior. Bloody Rose is 3 the turn they charge or are charged.

 

This wasn't averages. I simulated 10,000 combats from a full squad of ten.

 

Mortifiers have the Sororitas keyword, so they likely are Repentia.

 

Also, a poster on Dakka Dakja noted that the Canoness can no longer take combi-weapons.

 

To quote the poster:

 

You can swap the bolt pistol for any pistol or a Condemner Boltgun; or you can swap the bolt pistol and chainsword for a bolter and power sword (gain a Rod of Office); or swap the Chainsword for a power sword or Blessed Blade.

[Servant of Dante]

Dante:

 

Yes. And it's only 21 attacks. 2 base, +1 for the Superior. Bloody Rose is 3 the turn they charge or are charged.

 

This wasn't averages. I simulated 10,000 combats from a full squad of ten.

 

Mortifiers have the Sororitas keyword, so they likely are Repentia.

 

Also, a poster on Dakka Dakja noted that the Canoness can no longer take combi-weapons.

 

To quote the poster:

 

You can swap the bolt pistol for any pistol or a Condemner Boltgun; or you can swap the bolt pistol and chainsword for a bolter and power sword (gain a Rod of Office); or swap the Chainsword for a power sword or Blessed Blade.

My mistake on the attacks. My point was that the average result and your Mode result should be the same for properly random rolls, since for normally distributed results the mean and mode are the same.

 

I noticed the loss of combi weapons too for Canonesses. Very frustrating since I have an old Canoness model with a combi-flamer.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Servant of Dante

[ValourousHeart]

To quote the poster:

 

You can swap the bolt pistol for any pistol or a Condemner Boltgun; or you can swap the bolt pistol and chainsword for a bolter and power sword (gain a Rod of Office); or swap the Chainsword for a power sword or Blessed Blade.

 

The canoness model comes with a Torch option.  Did they give any indication what rules that has?

[Servant of Dante]

Maybe a Brazier of Holy Fire, since that’s a weapon option again it seems (unless it’s not for the Canoness? I didn’t check specifically) Edited November 18, 2019 by Servant of Dante

[Commander Dawnstar]

It is indeed a Brazier of Holy Fire. It puts Daemons within 6" at -1 Leadership and once per game it can be used on Overwatch to do D3 Mortal Wounds to an enemy unit (or D6 to a Daemon unit) on a 2+.

 

There's also a Relic version (The Brazier of Eternal Flame) which puts enemy psychic tests within 18" at -2, and the Order of the Sacred Rose have a Relic version which allows you to discard a Miracle die after using it to allow you another use later in the game.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Commander Dawnstar

[Ficinus]

Yeah, it seems like Zephyrim are super underwhelming unless you're running them as Bloody Rose (and/or with the Passion), at which point I think they'll be amazing.

 

31 attacks, hitting on 3+ with exploding 6's, wounding on 5+ with full reroll, AP-4. And those numbers, with a strat, would also work for attacking a knight.

[Servant of Dante]

Hum, that’s a bit disappointing I suppose for the one new Sisters squad in the book, though I wasn’t sure I wanted any not-Seraphim :P so I guess that makes the decision easier for me, I’ll just build mine as Seraphim when o can get the kit in January hopefully

[tvih]

 

4 - What Power mauls have gone as well?  Storm bolters I can understand as there has been no offical model... however it feels to me like negative feed back of the 5 stormbolter domion squad...

Since they're keeping storm bolters at least for BSS, I don't know what's the point in removing them from wargear lists. And power maul removal is indeed odd too. Kinda hard to model my existing ones as anything else.

[taikishi]

@Dante

 

Re-simulated the base numbers again. Excel isn't great for this, but it's all I have. Avg wounds is, obviously, average number of successful wounds inflicted. 84.96% chance of inflicting 4-9 wounds, 65.24% chance of inflicting 5-8 wounds, mode is 6 wounds.

 

https://imgur.com/0HFCN8a

[hhhdan]

They made the seraphim shoot after deepstriking stratagem affect meltas too (+6" range to all the pistols), but the extra range still only lasts for the movement phase, so deepstrike shoot bolt weapons twice and melta/flamer pistols once :/

 

Better than it was, but why not just allow them to fire at +6 until the end of the turn..

Also, why are mortifiers 9" move, but penitent engines are still 7" even though they are built from the same chassis?

[hhhdan]

Dante:

 

Yes. And it's only 21 attacks. 2 base, +1 for the Superior. Bloody Rose is 3 the turn they charge or are charged.

 

This wasn't averages. I simulated 10,000 combats from a full squad of ten.

 

Mortifiers have the Sororitas keyword, so they likely are Repentia.

 

Also, a poster on Dakka Dakja noted that the Canoness can no longer take combi-weapons.

 

To quote the poster:

 

You can swap the bolt pistol for any pistol or a Condemner Boltgun; or you can swap the bolt pistol and chainsword for a bolter and power sword (gain a Rod of Office); or swap the Chainsword for a power sword or Blessed Blade.

 

So if mortifiers are repentia, seems strange they wouldn't gain the <order> keyword, while repentia do...

[taikishi]

According to the fluff page, Mortifiers are piloted by Sisters who have fled from battle while the "sergeant" model is a Superior who has betrayed her sisters. The reason it's a 3+ save is because the Superior is put in an armored sarcophagus so she lives longer and is therefore punished longer.

[taikishi]

It is indeed a Brazier of Holy Fire. It puts Daemons within 6" at -1 Leadership and once per game it can be used on Overwatch to do D3 Mortal Wounds to an enemy unit (or D6 to a Daemon unit) on a 2+.

 

There's also a Relic version (The Brazier of Eternal Flame) which puts enemy psychic tests within 18" at -2, and the Order of the Sacred Rose have a Relic version which allows you to discard a Miracle die after using it to allow you another use later in the game.

 

Brazier can also be fired normally as well as overwatch. 12" range.

[Atrus]

Did the Celestian squads bodyguard rule get fixed to intercept hits? Or is it still the useless intercept damage one?