What’s missing from the Primaris line?

[FlamingDeth]

Why do you want a cheap transport? The Primaris are not 1:1 copies of the classic Astartes.

 

The Rhino was iconic but also not entirely thematic with the idea of super elite soldiers who are equipped with the best tech the Imperium can muster.

 

Currently a transport like that would not improve the army.

I can't speak for other folks but my vision of a marine army, the best of the best made better, is that it should be all about the marines. I want a transport that has the sole purpose of taking them from point A to point B and then is expendable the moment they get out. That's what the rhino does for old marines. It's cheap and you don't care what happens to it after the marines are out.

 

I agree that it shouldn't be a 1 for 1 replacement though. Something more akin to a LSS, ideally 6 man transport, probably just an onslaught for weaponry, and I'm sure it'll have some kind of gimmick because Primaris.

[Ishagu]

But Marines are getting a lot of units with deployment flexibility that don't need a transport.

 

Why take a cheap transport when you can deploy Infiltrators anywhere and bring in Inceptors from reserves to any part of the board? Save yourself some points and control the board for free without giving up kill points and more drops. Give us the use of a stratagem to teleport in a Repulsor like they do in the lore (Dropped from orbit).

 

I'd be perfectly happy with a fast moving grav vehicle like a wave Serpent, that's a different type of mobility Astartes are lacking. Maybe a flyer will solve that.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Ishagu

[Ishagu]

I'm still wondering why Primaris can't ride in a vehicle that can transport freaking Centurions.

 

What, they weren't trained on how to open the door?

I think this is only an issue for the moment. It's pretty obvious that GW intends for the range to be seperated in the future, hence the different keyword.

[Panzer]

I'm still wondering why Primaris can't ride in a vehicle that can transport freaking Centurions.

 

What, they weren't trained on how to open the door?

Same reason as it has always been. It's just an artificial separation of the two Marine model lines. That's all.

[Ishagu]

It's the same reason why Guardsmen can't get in Rhinos.

Or Sisters of battle in a Marine Rhino even though they literally use the same vehicles.

[Boldthreat]

That’s the way I approach it as well. Inceptors, Reivers and Suppressors can deepstrike natively. Infiltrators can infiltrate. It appears GW is leaning heavily on Primaris being able to get where they are needed without buying transportation options. For those units that don’t, we have a transport option... we just have to pay a premium for it. Thankfully for us that premium comes with good firepower to boot.

 

Heck I hope the Repulsor ends up getting a deepstrike special rule, or a space marine stratagem that allows them to do it for a price. The unit has already been described to have that ability in the books. How cool would it be if we could get a stratagem like Killshot for the Repulsors... only with true repulsor we can deepstrike and shoot immediately on arrival... whilst carrying troops. Expensive, but devastating.

 

On a fluff perspective I think Repulsors are better than Rhinos and Drop Pods. But it’s only half the evolution it should be. A IFV that can drop on the enemy and move with the ground troops as they move is good! It is better than the one shot drop pod and doesn’t require another asset to get it to the fight from aerospace to surface, like the Rhino. Where the Repulsor fails is in its inability to carry troops back to Strike Cruiser or whatever is in orbit. Space Marines are elite shock assault infantry forces that rely on lightning assaults and the ability to quickly redeploy and do it again and again. To get bogged down in a stand up fight with bigger armies, because of logistical issues with heavy vehicles would and should be detrimental. Granted, we can only assume that’s what the Overlord is for. Hopefully it has a vehicle lift ability that can facilitate the retrieval of Repulsor tanks. But I would think someone designing the evolution of Space Marines would cut out the middle man when it comes to the insertion and extraction of your elite fast moving infantry. The Repulsor should be a proper aerospace gunship, a Sci Fi Aerospace Hind if you will. They all should be. The Repulsor should be the light 10 man gunship. The Overlord the heavier one. Whirlwind and vindicator type assets shouldn’t exist, that should be facilitated by the assets in orbit. These are Space Marines.

 

Great discussion, I love reading all your ideas and opinions. Of course if we did get a cheap transport I would take it with a smile... I just don’t think it’s needed.

[Darnok]

I hope that Primaris do NOT get a "Rhino equivalent". There already is a Marine range with access to them, making Primaris more same-same does not help.

 

As many others, I would love to see some form of Terminator unit - the Gravis armour is already established, I hope to see it used in more units. Some heavy CC unit would be nice.

 

Some form of lighter combat/scout walker would be awesome in my opinion. Keeping the "feet on the ground" theme going that the Primaris already have, and offering something new that Marines do not already have. Give it the option for heavy weapons and deepstrike/infiltration, and it could also solve some gameplay issues for Primaris armies.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

I'm still wondering why Primaris can't ride in a vehicle that can transport freaking Centurions.

 

What, they weren't trained on how to open the door?

Same reason as it has always been. It's just an artificial separation of the two Marine model lines. That's all.

I know the practical real world reason.

 

Just wondering how they justify it in the lore. I hate arbitrary rules with no reasoning given in the lore. That goes for any game, not just 40k.

[Ishagu]

Lore and game aren't synonymous.

 

How does Guilliman get around? Lol

[Boldthreat]

Agreed, it’s preposterous that Primaris cannot ride in rhinos and utilize everything else the traditional Astartes can.

[Red_Shift]

Another vote for primaris terminators.

 

I have wondered previously about both light and heavy dreadnoughts. Not quite imperial knight sized but significantly up gunned. I think gw would avoid any clash with the tau range though.

[Ishagu]

Sure, but only if they are truly epic.

 

Str10, 4 attacks hitting on 2s, 4 wounds, 4++

Something as mighty as the Aquilon Terminators.

[Triszin]

I read through LEMAN Russ Primarch book again.

 

In the DULAN campaign agains the Faash they had "aegis" sheilds. they were described as advanced void shields.

 

They had Aegis shields on their ships, defense stations, bigger than leviathan dreadnaughts, normal troopers.

The most effecient way for legionaires to deal with them was with cqc weapons, as they were so strong it made bolter fire practically useless.

 

 

I think a "primaris Terminator" should have aegis shields, a 5+ save even against mortals wounds.

 

I think the question with the eventual priminators is what role? and how many is a minimum squad.

[MegaVolt87]

I would like to see more legion era style units as primaris typed units versions (despoilers, breachers, destroyers etc). Dedicated long range anti tank and anti infantry armored units without a transport capability. Then a pivot back with old marines later with the re-introduction of legion infantry at chapter level, vehicle squadrons (1-3 predators squadron etc), dreadnought talons etc. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[FlamingDeth]

I'd be perfectly happy with a fast moving grav vehicle like a wave Serpent, that's a different type of mobility Astartes are lacking.

That's literally exactly what I just described.

 

Anyways, Primaris need a cheaper transport because some of us like mechanised armies and don't want to spend all our points on transports that cost more than the troops they're transporting. People have different playstyles. I don't see this as a difficult concept to grasp.

[Volt]

Why do you want a cheap transport? The Primaris are not 1:1 copies of the classic Astartes.

 

The Rhino was iconic but also not entirely thematic with the idea of super elite soldiers who are equipped with the best tech the Imperium can muster.

 

Currently a transport like that would not improve the army.

 

The entire point of the Rhino is mobility and modularity. Space Marines are not super soldiers with the best equipment in the Imperium, that's the Custodes or upper echelons of the Admech. They get what allows them to move fast, strike fast, and retreat fast. And a transport would absolutely improve the army by actually allowing massed transit of an entire Primaris army in cheap metal boxes rather than having them foot it across the board and getting blown up in the process. The entire point of the Marines is that they are a 100% mechanized infantry.

[MegaVolt87]

A basic rhino exactly is what primaris need as an equivalent. Marines are weapons unto themselves, specialist vesicles definitely fit the faction. No heavy weapon infantry? fire up a dedicated anti tank/ anti infantry armored unit. Makes chapters different, infantry can be more or less focused and unique with specialist units + vehicles. RG has clearly realized his first draft of the codex is lacking, modern problems can be solved with older solutions post M41. Some Astartes once dogmatically follow the codex, written by one of the greatest minds at the time. That mind is alive once more, RG isn't the kind of personality to rest on past achievements and successes. The fact that the codex he wrote is being revised since RG's return doesn't mean its a flawed work, it was just a product of its time. Re-instating old legion organizations and tactics at chapter level is not a bad thing or mean the initial codex astartes was pointless. 

[Panzer]

 

 

I'm still wondering why Primaris can't ride in a vehicle that can transport freaking Centurions.

 

What, they weren't trained on how to open the door?

Same reason as it has always been. It's just an artificial separation of the two Marine model lines. That's all.

I know the practical real world reason.

 

Just wondering how they justify it in the lore. I hate arbitrary rules with no reasoning given in the lore. That goes for any game, not just 40k.

 

 

That's the point. They don't. It's simply not a topic in the lore.

[SyNidus]

I want close combat options. Assault marines or Jetbikes. A light flyer gunship.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Jetbikes would really help make SM more competitive - they could have decent shooting and strong melee plus hopefully three wounds. A TEQ unit will suffer for all the reasons they do now - look at Aggressors, no one really considers them a good melee unit .

[Ishagu]

 

 

Why do you want a cheap transport? The Primaris are not 1:1 copies of the classic Astartes.

 

The Rhino was iconic but also not entirely thematic with the idea of super elite soldiers who are equipped with the best tech the Imperium can muster.

 

Currently a transport like that would not improve the army.

 

The entire point of the Rhino is mobility and modularity. Space Marines are not super soldiers with the best equipment in the Imperium, that's the Custodes or upper echelons of the Admech. They get what allows them to move fast, strike fast, and retreat fast. And a transport would absolutely improve the army by actually allowing massed transit of an entire Primaris army in cheap metal boxes rather than having them foot it across the board and getting blown up in the process. The entire point of the Marines is that they are a 100% mechanized infantry.

Do you actually play the game? You can control the board for free without needing a cheap transport.

 

You don't need to walk anything slowly around because Primaris alone have 4 different infantry units that can be deployed or delivered anywhere.

 

A cheap Rhino is redundant. The Rhino is iconic because it's old, but it's not a great fit thematically.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Ishagu

[Marshal Vespasian]

I'd love for them to fill out the Fast attack slot some more, so it doesnt feel like a complete Black hole in the codex.

[MajorNese]

I want close combat options. Assault marines or Jetbikes. A light flyer gunship.

This. Currently, our board control mostly consists of infiltrating guys with basic bolters, deep striking guys with bolters or blades, and walking/slowly driving across the board - nothing posing an immediate and considerable threat. Suppressors don't want to be anywhere near the front line, Inceptors don't have the numbers/price tag to stick around.

 

Things would have been a lot better if Reivers had actual jump packs, HQs with JP existed, and a cheaper transport existed that may advance without sacrificing half an army's worth of firepower. Deep striking a Repulsor could help a lot, both overcoming the reluctance to advance and actually getting further than the center of the board. Controlling the center is possible at the moment, but getting into the enemy backfield with considerable force seems entirely out of the question.

[Ishagu]

Inceptors pose more of a threat than any classic unit you can put in a Pod or Rhino.

And they are more point efficient also.

[Panzer]

 

 

Why do you want a cheap transport? The Primaris are not 1:1 copies of the classic Astartes.

 

The Rhino was iconic but also not entirely thematic with the idea of super elite soldiers who are equipped with the best tech the Imperium can muster.

 

Currently a transport like that would not improve the army.

 

The entire point of the Rhino is mobility and modularity. Space Marines are not super soldiers with the best equipment in the Imperium, that's the Custodes or upper echelons of the Admech. They get what allows them to move fast, strike fast, and retreat fast. And a transport would absolutely improve the army by actually allowing massed transit of an entire Primaris army in cheap metal boxes rather than having them foot it across the board and getting blown up in the process. The entire point of the Marines is that they are a 100% mechanized infantry.

Do you actually play the game? You can control the board for free without needing a cheap transport.

 

You don't need to walk anything slowly around because Primaris alone have 4 different infantry units that can be deployed or delivered anywhere.

 

A cheap Rhino is redundant. The Rhino is iconic because it's old, but it's not a great fit thematically.

 

 

5 actually (Infiltrators, Eliminators, Reivers, Inceptors and Suppressors), but yeah I agree.

 

I haven't had any problem getting units across the board so far. Usually I need only two units deep into the enemies half of the board anyway (usually a unit of Reviers and a unit of Inceptors) while the rest occupies the middle of the board (Intercessors, Hellblaster, Aggressors, Infiltrators, all the vehicles, even Eliminators) and my backfield (Suppressors actually despite being mobile and having access to Deep Strike).

 

What would I put into a fast transport if I had one? All the units I listed for the middle of the board do just fine in a Repulsor who wants to be there anyway and is no bad tank itself at all. I get my units in Rapid fire range by turn 2 with a M10 FLY tank just fine (that's 10"+3"+6"=19" outside of your deployment zone turn 2) and most Marines don't really want to get closer than that. Flamer Aggressors maybe but that's a weirdly designed unit/loadout anyway. Even if you don't want to deploy so many Repulsors to fit all your Intercessors&Co into them they do just fine walking behind with their 30" rifles (especially with Bolter Discipline now) while your Repulsor and Suppressors etc build up pressure turn 1.

 

As long as we don't have a proper melee unit we don't need a cheap and fast transport and the chances are good that it'll be a Jump Pack unit anyway. I'm not saying that Primaris as they currently are are in a good place competetively, but a cheap and fast transport wouldn't change that either.

 

EDIT:

It's kinda the same question as with Drop Pods for regular Marines ... it would be great if they were cheaper, but what exactly do you want to put in them? Just Sternguard probably. Everything else has enough range or access to deep strike on their own. Melta are just not worth it and I'd say occupy a similar weird spot as Flamer Aggressors here.

Edited June 12, 2019 by sfPanzer