What’s missing from the Primaris line?

[Ishagu]

I think a lot of people are stuck in an old edition mentality in term of tactics, or in terms of wanting the new units to repeat the design and function of the old ones.

One thing that GW is showing us with Primaris is that the new units are not repeats of the old. Suppressors and Inceptors for example don't have a classic Astartes equivalent and to try to compare them is to fail to recognise their roles and function.

 

If we get a relatively cheap CC unit - something like Intercessors with reaper swords, then the Repulsor will do fine. I believe that the new CC unit we get will be very mobile and won't require a transport anyways.

[MajorNese]

Inceptors pose more of a threat than any classic unit you can put in a Pod or Rhino.

And they are more point efficient also.

They have the firepower, yet they don't stick around if anything survives. Which is the main problem if you want to actually hold the ground - 135p for 6W is not a good exchange rate. Anything with MW, 2D or AP will kill them quickly, unless they hide in CC. And they don't exactly belong in CC either. Classic marines are in most cases absolutely underwhelming, but they do get more models and wounds for the same points.

 

If Reivers could buy JP for the usual rate, that would be twice the models/wounds for the same points, 3 times the attacks in CC, plus pistols. Those guys would be useful, but it seems GW wants to prevent overlap at any cost. Now our backfield HW squads have jump packs, but our CC disruption unit is stuck with one-use fairy wings. Can't say some of the gimmicks are useless all the time, but primaris do occasionally ignore the core role for fancy (yet situational) stuff.

[Volt]

 

 

Why do you want a cheap transport? The Primaris are not 1:1 copies of the classic Astartes.

 

The Rhino was iconic but also not entirely thematic with the idea of super elite soldiers who are equipped with the best tech the Imperium can muster.

 

Currently a transport like that would not improve the army.

 

The entire point of the Rhino is mobility and modularity. Space Marines are not super soldiers with the best equipment in the Imperium, that's the Custodes or upper echelons of the Admech. They get what allows them to move fast, strike fast, and retreat fast. And a transport would absolutely improve the army by actually allowing massed transit of an entire Primaris army in cheap metal boxes rather than having them foot it across the board and getting blown up in the process. The entire point of the Marines is that they are a 100% mechanized infantry.

Do you actually play the game? You can control the board for free without needing a cheap transport.

 

You don't need to walk anything slowly around because Primaris alone have 4 different infantry units that can be deployed or delivered anywhere.

 

A cheap Rhino is redundant. The Rhino is iconic because it's old, but it's not a great fit thematically.

 

Three of which completely suck and aren't worth bringing to begin with. Reivers are a waste of an elite slot for what is an overglorified assault marine unit that can't even get AP, Suppressors just have autocannons to plink away with minimal damage or act as a points, Infiltrators are overcosted and are only really useful with Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist tactics, and the only one worth bringing is Inceptors. But Inceptors themselves aren't even infantry anyway, and they aren't troops either. And also ignores what would actually help is a dirt cheap transport to zip hellblasters up the board turn one into rapid fire range and then spend turn 2 blowing the enemy army to kingdom come, which right now is a very expensive tactic to use because of how expensive the Repulsor is. Or alternatively just cheap drop pods able to deploy hellblasters would do wonders.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I just wish that Primaris captains, etc could take different weapons than the restrictive sets they can take now. "No model, no data sheet" doesn't make any sense to me  and seems like lazy balancing. Even if was just melee weapon upgrades that would be so much better than what we have now. I want to run an all primaris Iron hands army but I can't take their relic, seesm like they didn't really think that through. 

[Ishagu]

 

Inceptors pose more of a threat than any classic unit you can put in a Pod or Rhino.

And they are more point efficient also.

They have the firepower, yet they don't stick around if anything survives. Which is the main problem if you want to actually hold the ground - 135p for 6W is not a good exchange rate. Anything with MW, 2D or AP will kill them quickly, unless they hide in CC. And they don't exactly belong in CC either. Classic marines are in most cases absolutely underwhelming, but they do get more models and wounds for the same points.

 

If Reivers could buy JP for the usual rate, that would be twice the models/wounds for the same points, 3 times the attacks in CC, plus pistols. Those guys would be useful, but it seems GW wants to prevent overlap at any cost. Now our backfield HW squads have jump packs, but our CC disruption unit is stuck with one-use fairy wings. Can't say some of the gimmicks are useless all the time, but primaris do occasionally ignore the core role for fancy (yet situational) stuff.

 

Your examples are very slanted to defend your conclusion. A single squad definitely won't stick around and that is why you need redundancy. Drop Pods and Sternguard don't stick around either, and they can be tied up to become useless.

There is literally nothing that I would put in a Drop Pod or a Rhino.

 

Also, 135 points for 6 t5 wounds that can fly and have 18 Str5 shots is pretty great, comparatively, to the rest of the Astartes range.

 

 

Volt: Reivers are not a waste at all. You are showing a lack of experience by stating they are. You don't measure every unit by their offensive capabilities. I measure them by the fact I can deliver 10 3+ save wounds to any part of the board for 100 points. Nothing in the classic Astartes line is this efficient.

 

You think Infiltrators are expensive? I see them as a free win against any GSC army lol

I know some of you refuse to adjust or accept new changes and tactics, but ignoring things isn't going to improve your experience.

 

 

I just wish that Primaris captains, etc could take different weapons than the restrictive sets they can take now. "No model, no data sheet" doesn't make any sense to me and seems like lazy balancing. Even if was just melee weapon upgrades that would be so much better than what we have now. I want to run an all primaris Iron hands army but I can't take their relic, seesm like they didn't really think that through.

Absolutely. We generally need more HQ variety.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Why do you want a cheap transport? The Primaris are not 1:1 copies of the classic Astartes.

 

The Rhino was iconic but also not entirely thematic with the idea of super elite soldiers who are equipped with the best tech the Imperium can muster.

 

Currently a transport like that would not improve the army.

 

The entire point of the Rhino is mobility and modularity. Space Marines are not super soldiers with the best equipment in the Imperium, that's the Custodes or upper echelons of the Admech. They get what allows them to move fast, strike fast, and retreat fast. And a transport would absolutely improve the army by actually allowing massed transit of an entire Primaris army in cheap metal boxes rather than having them foot it across the board and getting blown up in the process. The entire point of the Marines is that they are a 100% mechanized infantry.

Do you actually play the game? You can control the board for free without needing a cheap transport.

 

You don't need to walk anything slowly around because Primaris alone have 4 different infantry units that can be deployed or delivered anywhere.

 

A cheap Rhino is redundant. The Rhino is iconic because it's old, but it's not a great fit thematically.

 

Three of which completely suck and aren't worth bringing to begin with. Reivers are a waste of an elite slot for what is an overglorified assault marine unit that can't even get AP, Suppressors just have autocannons to plink away with minimal damage or act as a points, Infiltrators are overcosted and are only really useful with Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist tactics, and the only one worth bringing is Inceptors. But Inceptors themselves aren't even infantry anyway, and they aren't troops either. And also ignores what would actually help is a dirt cheap transport to zip hellblasters up the board turn one into rapid fire range and then spend turn 2 blowing the enemy army to kingdom come, which right now is a very expensive tactic to use because of how expensive the Repulsor is. Or alternatively just cheap drop pods able to deploy hellblasters would do wonders.

 

 

Uhm Suppressors are definitely worth bringing and of course Inceptors are infantry. You might want to read your Codex again.

[Closet Skeleton]

Its not anti-tank per say that Primaris lack, its the ability to take enough to deal with vehicle heavy armies. The specialist unit model just doesn't work as well on a heavy infantry army the way it works on a cheap glass cannon army like eldar.

 

I like the look of supressors but my experience with autocannon havocs is that you need a lot for them to come into their own. Jumppack 2w autocannons are just never going to be as efficient as more basic chasis autocannons and 8th seems to be a glass cannon maximum efficiency game a lot of the time.

 

Reivers and agressors are not what people expect of a traditional melee unit. They have their niche, they dont need rewritten rules to take the spot of the melee units some actually want.

You dont consider, but other people do consider them core. There are hundreds of chapters, vanguard veterans arent exclusive to BA and you are limiting DiY chapters.

Veteran Intercessors dont do that just fine. They dont do it at all.

 

 

Veteran Intercessors are way better than crusader squads in melee, they can't take a special weapon but a squad of 10 has 20 wounds and can kick out a lot of ap0 attacks and that's all crusader squads really do. A powerfist veteran intersessor sergeant has 4 S8 AP-3 attacks, that's more than you can get out of a crusader squad. Primaris lack a melee unit that can go toe to toe with other elite melee units but that's not what crusader squads are for.

 

Its pointless for you to say 'not what I want out of a melee unit' if you don't clarify what you actually want out of that unit.

 

Flamer aggressors are clearly a melee unit with guns, not a shooty unit like the boltstorm ones.

 

 

Beyond a dedicated melee unit I would just like to be able to add a chainsword to the Primaris kit or and this isn't exactly better but some rule for Primaris that says something like in close combat any to hit roll of a 6+ (Or a 5=,6+) counts as 2 hits. I would also add the Orks Dakka Dakka Dakka, I think I mean Bolter Drill, to Primaris but I haven't really thought about these very much and I know people aren't fans of random things. 

 

 

Dude, that's literally what veteran intercessors are. +1 attack, can spend a cp to get 6s (unmodified so it still works on your 4 attack power fist) to hit cause 2 hits.

 

Yeah, pretty much. Stop cock teasing about replacing Old marines, go full throttle with Primaris versions of classic units, add in some Deus Ex Belisarius new ones like jetbike lancers and destroyers, pull the mark 7 range, and devote those resources into making plastic mark 2-6 tacticals for the heresy you can buy resin upgrades to make special units for and call it a done deal.

 

 

Aren't inceptors already basically Primaris destroyers?

 

 

Can we just have Liutanents be able to take power fists? And largely speaking let Taticus/Mark X sgts take power swords. Just as a general thing?

 

Its phobos sergeants that can't take power swords, half the Tacticus ones can (I suppose you may have meant to want helblaster sergeants to take them and while I'm not against that I never would).

[MajorNese]

Your examples are very slanted to defend your conclusion. A single squad definitely won't stick around and that is why you need redundancy. Drop Pods and Sternguard don't stick around either, and they can be tied up to become useless.

There is literally nothing that I would put in a Drop Pod or a Rhino.

 

Also, 135 points for 6 t5 wounds that can fly and have 18 Str5 shots is pretty great, comparatively, to the rest of the Astartes range.

My examples are simply based on experience.

I've had loads of success by dropping 2 or 3 full squads of sternguard/devs into cover as RG - any army at >12" usually wasted an entire shooting phase to kill a single squad. Chaff fire might do slightly more due to T4, but doesn't cut it at 2+ armour in cover, requiring bigger guns to dislodge them. The big gun's multi damage is wasted, having S7 compared to S5 is worthless, so they have to be worn down one wound at a time by stuff that would have killed tougher models at the exact same rate. Better to lose 16ppm sternguard than 45ppm inceptors.

 

Of course a single squad won't stick around, but if points per wound are suboptimal on one squad, they will still be at two or more squads. Inceptors are amazing at firepower and I regularly use them, but the wound count is still lacking if it were considered a take-and-hold unit. For purely defensive purposes - attack bikes are a lot cheaper per T5 3+ wound (8,75ppW compared to 22,5ppW Inceptors). Inceptors are used for firepower, not for being the cheapest wounds to throw downrange and hope they stick around. Currently that's what Reivers are used for, but those are rather static and predictable once landed, as well as not having the weapons options to be a considerable threat.

 

And that's what I'm clearly missing in the primaris line - something that is faster than footslogging after deployment, yet cheap enough to bring enough guys to survive the return fire. Assault squads/JP reivers would fill that gap, as would a cheaper transport to enable our existing units to get there.

 

The current line doesn't feel like it has a clear concept of how it is supposed to work, considering we're discussing about how to get our CC guys into CC in the first place, and how to take and hold an area with glass cannons. GW has a lot more planned to flesh out the primaris line, after that's released it might become clearer.

[Ishagu]

Have you ever dropped in 3, 5 man squad of Inceptors into cover? They have an 18" range without the number of shots being affected.

 

More effective and better value than Sternguard, and far more mobile.

 

On the contrary, the current line has a very clear direction of how it works (and it's not exactly like the classic Astartes). There are a few gaps that need to be plugged however, hence the need for a more releases.

[Panzer]

Its not anti-tank per say that Primaris lack, its the ability to take enough to deal with vehicle heavy armies. The specialist unit model just doesn't work as well on a heavy infantry army the way it works on a cheap glass cannon army like eldar.

 

I like the look of supressors but my experience with autocannon havocs is that you need a lot for them to come into their own. Jumppack 2w autocannons are just never going to be as efficient as more basic chasis autocannons and 8th seems to be a glass cannon maximum efficiency game a lot of the time.

 

Well it depends of course. Suppressors are fairly cheap. 3x3 cost 15p less than 2x5 Lascannon Devastators. Their damage output is comparable as well.

Against T6 Sv4+ it's 13.33 damage vs 12.44 damage

Against T7 Sv3+ it's 8 damage vs 10.37 damage

Against T7 Sv3+/5++ it's 8 damage vs 8.3 damage

Against T8 Sv3+ it's 5.33 damage vs 10.37 damage

Against T8 Sv3+/5++ it's 5.33 damage vs 8.3 damage

 

So basically against the default tanks they are about equal, especially if they have an invul. Against T8 they are weaker and against targets with less than T7 they are better. Also important to note is that they are more reliable due a higher rate of fire and fix 2 damage which is not to be underestimated ... and if there aren't vehicles to shoot at they still do well against infantry so your list is less matchup dependant.

In a Knight meta they are worse but in meta with lots of infantry and light vehicles they are better. In a meta with default tank profiles they are about equal.

 

 

 

 

The current line doesn't feel like it has a clear concept of how it is supposed to work, considering we're discussing about how to get our CC guys into CC in the first place, and how to take and hold an area with glass cannons. GW has a lot more planned to flesh out the primaris line, after that's released it might become clearer.

 

 

I have to disagree there. It definitely feels like GW is having a clear concept of how they want Primaris to be. It just doesn't align with how you want your Marines to be. At least not for now.

[MajorNese]

 

Its not anti-tank per say that Primaris lack, its the ability to take enough to deal with vehicle heavy armies. The specialist unit model just doesn't work as well on a heavy infantry army the way it works on a cheap glass cannon army like eldar.

 

I like the look of supressors but my experience with autocannon havocs is that you need a lot for them to come into their own. Jumppack 2w autocannons are just never going to be as efficient as more basic chasis autocannons and 8th seems to be a glass cannon maximum efficiency game a lot of the time.

Well it depends of course. Suppressors are fairly cheap. 3x3 cost 15p less than 2x5 Lascannon Devastators. Their damage output is comparable as well.

Against T6 Sv4+ it's 13.33 damage vs 12.44 damage

Against T7 Sv3+ it's 8 damage vs 10.37 damage

Against T7 Sv3+/5++ it's 8 damage vs 8.3 damage

Against T8 Sv3+ it's 5.33 damage vs 10.37 damage

Against T8 Sv3+/5++ it's 5.33 damage vs 8.3 damage

To note there - 9 suppressors are more resilient than 10 devs, have more mobility and can get -1 to hit for just the sarge not firing. Once the devs include ablative wounds, the damage output shifts towards suppressors too. Suppressors are in an interesting spot - they cost about the same as hellblasters, and are better in most aspects (except for Str/AP, which is offset by range, always double shots and enemy invuls). It might make them more attractive once the squad size gets increased, but they are promising as is.

 

 

Have you ever dropped in 3, 5 man squad of Inceptors into cover? They have an 18" range without the number of shots being affected.

More effective and better value than Sternguard, and far more mobile.

Having used the full Issobomb - yes, there are ways to make DS firebases work, doesn't matter if it's with Inceptors or the typical Issobomb (which has enough buffs to make things interesting with devs/sternguard). At least it worked flawlessly until the DS limitations - now it goes down the drain once your opponent has the knowledge and chaff units to prevent DS in the truly interesting areas. Once that happens, we are back to lacking mobility, considering how many of our mobile units rely on DS.

[Boldthreat]

I’m just so pleased with Repulsors that I don’t believe a cheaper transport would help me much. My main 1500 list has three Repulsors. The rest of the list is crammed with as many intercessors and hellblasters as I can take. I’m not a perfect player, and I know my list is hedging on redundancy over anything else. But it’s a solid gun line that can move, shoot and press objectives. There is no close combat ability. And my goal is to beat up your troops or utilize my repulsors to knock out your dangerous stuff. It doesn’t always work but it’s a solid core. If I move up to 1750, 1850 or 2000 I’m just adding Inceptors, Suppressors and reivers... all with deepstrike capability and no need to buy more expensive delivery vehicles. I’m pretty happy and think I can see the design principle on that.

[War Angel]

Can I just say, that in regards to “why can’t primaris ride in rhinos” you all seem to ignor the simplest of reasons.

 

How much bigger than normal marines are they? There’s no damn room.

 

Same thing goes for land raiders, sure, they can fit terminators, but terminators are bulky, not much taller than power armor. Primaris marines are tall.

[Marshal Rohr]

Primaris Marines are not taller than Custodes and Primarchs, who can ride in Land Raiders. 

[Ishagu]

Until someone tells me why a Sister of battle can't enter a Marine Rhino I certainly won't be concerning myself with why Primaris can't use them either.

 

It's just the game rules, nothing more.

Primaris are taller than Custodes BTW lol

And Primarchs can't enter any vehicle in 40k rules...

[Panzer]

Can I just say, that in regards to “why can’t primaris ride in rhinos” you all seem to ignor the simplest of reasons.

 

How much bigger than normal marines are they? There’s no damn room.

 

Same thing goes for land raiders, sure, they can fit terminators, but terminators are bulky, not much taller than power armor. Primaris marines are tall.

 

That's obviously the first thing anybody thought about but it's just not true. There are regular Marines as tall as Primaris (yes, there are some really huge ones) and they can ride in those vehicles just fine. Custodes can ride in Landraiders just fine and are taller than Primaris. Centurions can ride in Drop Pods and are WAY taller and bulkier than any Primaris.

It's really just that GW artificially separates both model lines. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

 

 

Primaris are taller than Custodes BTW lol

 

That's not true.

[Ishagu]

The models are, unless you count the hair lol

[MajorNese]

Same thing goes for land raiders, sure, they can fit terminators, but terminators are bulky, not much taller than power armor. Primaris marines are tall.

Rhinos maybe, but LandRaiders can fit Centurions. Centurions are taller and bulkier than terminators. Primaris (regular and Gravis) can ride a Thunderhawk too - 15 normal primaris (same as terminators) or half that in gravis, so one primaris would equal one terminator/JP dude or 2 regular marines.

 

It's a game rule, intended to make people buy the new stuff instead of refurbishing the old stuff from ebay, or even using the stuff they already have (or proxy it). The primaris releases are consistent in one aspect - they don't directly replace oldmarine units. Why should GW then let them use oldmarine units, when they can sell new models instead? In case of Custodes, there are no new models, so the old ones are just fine.

[Panzer]

The models are, unless you count the hair lol

 

 

We aren't talking about the actual models, however that's not true either anyway. The models are about the same size with potentially taller Custodes since they have a rather wide stance here.

 

http://i.imgur.com/2rydt37.jpg

[Captain Idaho]

The lack of a need for transports is more of a problem with the wider game than Primaris not needing them.

 

They don't need them because they don't have a credible assault unit. If Primaris get a credible assault unit, then the need for a decent transport that doesn't cost over 200pts becomes apparent.

 

If the game swung towards movement and dynamic play rather than sit there and shoot killhammer then perhaps we'd see more Tactical and Intercessor squads inside transports and again the need for a cheaper transport becomes apparent.

[Ishagu]

Hmmm I'll have a look at mine when I get home. I could swear they are a bit taller.

 

Either way it has nothing to do with lore or fluff. It's just a game limitation to seperate the ranges.

 

Edit:

Re: Idaho

Depends on the assault unit. The most credible Astartes assault units aren't really spamming Rhinos anyways.

 

It's funny when we all talk about Assault units from the classic Astartes like they are some crucial element of the army. Unless you're playing Wolves or BA they're all rubbish. They weren't good in 5th, 6th or 7th either...

I'm hoping Primaris don't repeat the existing designs and give us something new. Lance jet-bikers, jump pack Terminator style units, something like that.

[Brother Casman]

Okay, I generally feel that the game and the lore should reflect each other to some extent. It doesn't have to be a perfect reflection, for propaganda reasons, but I think there should be some alignments between the two. With that in mind, here's something I've been thinking about.

 

Consider a Space Marine Battle Company committed to a planetary campaign. The opening fight centers around an shock assault/orbital drop - the majority come down in drop pods, with the Assault Marines doing a paratrooper jump from a Thunderhawk. The company establishes a landing area, and bring in the transports and other heavier equipment like Predators. To press the attack, the company needs to move on to the next strategic location: the Tactical Marines and Devastators mount up in Rhinos, the command echelon mounts their Razorbacks, the Assault Marines wait for a Thunderhawk pick-up. En route, the Marines can replenish ammo, recharge packs, complete battlefield repairs of armour, and receive any strategic updates from the Company Command. Their next target is susceptible to a blitzkrieg as their enemy is still trying to figure out what happened in the first drop. The Marines can press the attack and keep their foe off-balance. A bare-bones description, perhaps, but I think it fits the Space Marine way of war and I would say it largely fits the game as well.

 

Now, if we consider a Primaris Battle Company committed to the same style of campaign, we can look into the similarities and differences. Our opening orbital drop would be more reliant on "paratrooper drops" since we don't have drop pods. Not necessarily a problem, if we can call on the forces of the Vanguard Company to supplement our Battle Company and give us our deep strike capability. However, will they have Intercessor and Hellblaster support? They might be present if we accept that: they're all mounted in Repulsors and these can be dropped from orbit. The trouble is, the Repulsors don't have a deep strike capability in the game, making the orbital drop concept a little harder to justify. Likewise, in the lore, I see the Repulsors as being more akin to Land Raiders in terms of materiel production: expensive for the Imperium to produce, so I don't expect a given Chapter to have a lot of them. Further, how did our infiltrators get deployed before we have a landing zone? So right away, we begin to run into potential issues. Moving on, we can assume that the Primaris Marines establish a landing zone, and head out to the next target. Which brings up the question: how do they get to the next target? I already think that there aren't enough Repulsors (since I expect them to be expensive to build), so perhaps the Primaris Marines march to their next destination. Trouble with this is that I would expect that rearming and resupplying are harder on the march; not impossible, but still. Similarly, the Primaris Marines are likely slower than the Repulsors so it'll take more time to get into position. The other option would be to mount up in the Overlords/Thunderhawks/whatever and push the offensive that way, but then the Primaris Marines are constantly completing orbital/paratrooper drops. I'll freely admit that this method of warfighting could very well work, but it also seems somewhat wasteful especially if the next target is only a few hundred kilometers away. Overall, the Primaris way of war feels less consistent and vaguely unsatisfying.

 

Now, if the Primaris had a basic APC (even just Rhinos) then I think a lot of my issues disappear.

 

I fully expect that people will just wave away my little objections and issues, and that's fine - I don't expect to convince everyone of my line of thinking. At the same time, I hope this helps to clarify some little issues that I see with the current line of Primaris Marines, and why I think a basic APC would be a thematic addition. I'd use 'em all the time, even if it makes me less "effective" in competitive play.

[Ishagu]

Why do you feel that the Repulsor couldn't fill that role?

 

Primaris are either dropped from space or from an Overlord in high altitude.

Some of them would be deployed inside the Repulsors that are also dropped into the warzone from either High Orbit or from the Overlord. Once on the ground they could move to a new area using Repulsor tanks. They don't seem to be in short supply.

 

Overlord picks up the Inceptors or other drop troops.

[Robbienw]

There is not much in it between Custodes and Primaris.  Custodes are slightly taller than normal Primaris possibly by like 1mm.  Gravis Primaris might be a bit taller, but only cause the foot armour thickness gives them extra height.  In terms of physical ability though, primaris are a pale shadow of Custodes of course

 

Also, the Overlord doesnt just drop primaris from high altitude, it can drop them directly to the ground as well.  It operates like the thunderhawk.

[Ishagu]

I don't expect we'll get an Overlord model. Too big.

 

I'd be happy for a quick grav skimmer as some suggested. Maybe one capable of transporting 5 Phobos Astartes? 14-16" movement.

 

Would still need to be up-gunned and more enclosed than the traditional landspeeders.