What’s missing from the Primaris line?

[Darnok]

I think the more invested people are in a certain chapter they more that they will feel that Primaris are "Soul Less" for legimate reasons. That said I think a lot of them are interested in them, they just need the following points to be addressed.

 

1) They don't have very much back ground yet. They're basically in the propaganda stage, plus we don't have many examples of Primaris Characters. I think most of us are drawn to our chapters not just because of the strengths but also their weaknesses so the Mary Sue stage is pretty rough.

 

2) The range for primaris is really basic right now, and a lot of chapters have a strong identity that is tied to certain units. For a lot players not being able to make an army that feel right for their chapter leads to rejection. It also feels harder to make your army unique, I'm not good at conversions but due to the sheer amount of marine kits my wolves looked different than other space wolf armies. My Primaris look different due to my paint scheme and some kitbashing but my intercessors will look a lot like other peoples.

 

3) To some of us they don't feel compatible. I have a space wolf army, and now a separate space wolf Primaris Successor I don't like mixing and matching the two armies. The differences between the scale throws me off.

A good summary, and a lot of points I agree with.

 

Pure Primaris armies have some options already, especially with the arrival of the Vanguard, but there is some way to go before they can stand on their own. To me they feel like "bland Marines 2.0", and in parts I actually like it. One of the developments in all of the Spae Marines ranges I disliked a lot over the last years was dialing up the bling to the eleven - and then some. The Primaris Marines look like actual soldiers, not like walking reliquaries, and I appreciate it.

 

Now if only they had sme more variety in elite infantry, vehicles/walkers and characters. We are getting there though, sooner or later.

[Brother Lunkhead]

When Primaris first came out I was pretty tepid about them. But, over time I've warmed to them (still not at the excited stage yet).

 

I'm sure, over time we'll see them fleshed out more and given a soul-boost. We've got some novels and short stories that have given us more information and even a few good named characters. For example, Robbie MacNiven's Blood of Iax gives us brothers Kastor and Polixis, two very well developed Primaris characters. Hopefully we'll soon see more details on the Primaris chapters from White Dwarf and possibly the next Chapter Approved.

 

Personally I think some original Primaris named minis are in order and not just 'roided up versions of old models.

 

Given time I think along with new gear and vehicles, Primaris will be issued souls as well  Just be patient 

[Jacques Corbin]

Agreed, we need new Primaris heroes. I still want the Primaris Techmarine, but let's also see some new Primaris characters. Surely some of them have made a name for themselves by now, given all the fluff. But we still NEED more fluff! Give me a campaign that introduces a new Primaris character, preferably for each chapter. Ultramarines have already done the promote from within thing, and now Cato Sicarius has to get in line behind every Primaris that could be eligible for Chapter Master after Calgar crossed the Rubicon. Vanguard Primaris synergize well with Raven Guard CT, as well as thematically, and I would enjoy getting a named Primaris Vanguard character for them, or an all-primaris successor chapter. Salamanders would be good too, because they currently have no successor chapters, or so they claim, and it would be interesting to see them react to an all-primaris successor chapter, led by a named character in Gravis armor. Also, and this is admittedly a bit trollish, how about a named character, son of Dorn, Chapter Champion? No, think about it, now that all-primaris chapters are a thing, the ones sired by Dorn's geneseed will be attending the Feast of Blades, and competing in the duels, which begs the question, will the duels now be dominated by Primaris champions, or will there be 2 brackets, one for Primaris, and one for classic marines?

[Leif Bearclaw]

 No, think about it, now that all-primaris chapters are a thing, the ones sired by Dorn's geneseed will be attending the Feast of Blades, and competing in the duels, which begs the question, will the duels now be dominated by Primaris champions, or will there be 2 brackets, one for Primaris, and one for classic marines?

I don't think they will. The Feast of Blades is a specific tournament between a dozen of the initial (so 2nd, maybe 3rd Founding) Fist successors, not an open 'all Dorn's gene-seed are welcome' event. And given that the established Chapters are using Primaris anyway, Primaris will be competing in the Feast going forward anyway.

[Jacques Corbin]

Back on topic, I also want to see more Gravis Primaris. Namely a unit of air defence Gravis in a Heavy Support slot. Not like the big ADA guns on tanks, well maybe, but rather more like lots of Flakk to deal with things like Tau drones, Tyranid flying bugs, MEQs with jump packs, and Eldar jetbikes. Have 2 options between high volume of D1 shots at AP-1 or AP0, and the other being fewer shots at AP-1 or AP-2 and D2, but keep the Power Fists! The hitting flyers on 2+ and non fliers on 4+ may seem overly niche, but shooting twice for not moving will make up for it.

 

Also, a Gravis Librarian, and give him Pyromancy as a discipline! Very synergistic with flamer Aggressors, and fluffy for Salamanders.

 

How about a Gravis Techmarine? One that can walk up the field with Dreadnoughts.

 

And on that note, Gravis melee Dreadnoughts! Give the Ironclad a big brother. This one, in addition to +1T for Gravis, tweak its degrade chart, like normal for the top row, but it stays in the second row longest only degrading slightly, and its third and final row for only 1 or 2 wounds. That is my favorite part of my Ironclads, is that they are T8 and do not degrade, but these would still degrade, but still be extra durable. Also, give it a rule that lets it explode huge!

[MegaVolt87]

Actually, thinking about it more Primaris feel like mass produced cannon fodder as they were currently introduced and implemented. They only got variant bolters, an autocannon and variant plasma thats it really. A lack of specialist units and veterans that make old marines feel more unique in comparison. If rumours are to be believed, these other units everyone are asking for already technically exist, they are on a time gate until we get them. A more complete initial release would have helped and also propped up SM in general better. Putting the primaris at the front of the release cycles and completing the range far sooner will alleviate a lot of the issues with them. 

[War Angel]

Yes it would have been better if they gave us a full release, but GW is a business and needs to stay profitable for years to come. Spacing things out, while it sucks for us, allows them to continue to see sales each quarter. Also, it allows the players who spent the last 30 years building their space marine forces not feel like everything has been replaced over night.

 

But, that’s off topic.

[Panzer]

Primaris are a lot more 'specialised' than regular Marines due them all having the same weapon in a unit.

They are lacking Veterans for now, but that doesn't make them cannon fodder. They are still Marines. Also their Bolters, Plasma and Autocannons are superior to what regular Marines carry around with Plasma getting close to Lascannons already. On a model per model basis they aren't lacking (keep in mind that when talking about in-universe comparisons there are no points, just the soldier and equipment vs soldier and equipment). The only thing where regular Marines are superior is at melee and only due the Veteran units which Primaris are completely lacking for now so we can't even compare those.

If anything regular Bolter Marines is the cannon fodder.

[Robbienw]

I think you can argue the Primaris were used as cannon fodder at least in the era of the Indomitus Crusade, if the Dark Imperium novel was anything to go by. They were thrown into battle and suffered huge losses due to lack of practical experience, at least at the beginning.

 

Also, the Dark Angels definitely use them as cannon fodder.

[Panzer]

Yeah that's how they got used in the fluff initially because the initial batch lacked experience and many chapters didn't trust them until they've proven their worth, but it's not the picture one should get when looking at it objectively and especially not when looking at the crunch.

[Orange Knight]

By the events of Dark Imperium 2, and now reading through the novel "The Emperor's Spears" the lore is indicating that the Primaris Marines are not cannon fodder but respected members of the chapters they belong to.

 

The Dark Angels, one of my personal favourite chapters, suffer from some inconsistent or uneven lore. They aren't portrayed in a flattering light in the novel "War of Secrets" much to my disappointment. Depending on your point of view they could come across as paranoid to the point of incompetence, or outright heretical.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would get the impression that they come across as cannon fodder when they are simply portrayed as more elite forms of Astartes on the tabletop? Are you referring to the lore or the game because it's not the case in either?

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, Spear of the Emperor pretty much confirms the ‘Primaris are a supplement for normal marines’ is entirely wrong. Some chapters may work like that, but it’s an exception. The Primaris in the book have a command squad of veterans for a battle company which also disproves the whole ‘don’t need old marine equivalent units’ is another wrong statement, since clearly they are are coming.

[Gederas]

Yeah, Spear of the Emperor pretty much confirms the ‘Primaris are a supplement for normal marines’ is entirely wrong. Some chapters may work like that, but it’s an exception. The Primaris in the book have a command squad of veterans for a battle company which also disproves the whole ‘don’t need old marine equivalent units’ is another wrong statement, since clearly they are are coming.

When all Marines are Primaris, no Marine is Primaris.

[Panzer]

 

Yeah, Spear of the Emperor pretty much confirms the ‘Primaris are a supplement for normal marines’ is entirely wrong. Some chapters may work like that, but it’s an exception. The Primaris in the book have a command squad of veterans for a battle company which also disproves the whole ‘don’t need old marine equivalent units’ is another wrong statement, since clearly they are are coming.

When all Marines are Primaris, no Marine is Primaris.

 

Not true unless they retcon the history of 40k. Marines are still Marines even though Thunderwarriors existed before. ^^

[Robbienw]

Command squads aren’t a thing any more in the codex Astartes though.

 

However Primaris have had since their inception veterans who would have previously been in command squads, such as standard bearers and apothecaries.

 

I think the Emperors Spears diverge from the codex though, so maybe they still have whole command squads.

[Gederas]

Yeah, Spear of the Emperor pretty much confirms the ‘Primaris are a supplement for normal marines’ is entirely wrong. Some chapters may work like that, but it’s an exception. The Primaris in the book have a command squad of veterans for a battle company which also disproves the whole ‘don’t need old marine equivalent units’ is another wrong statement, since clearly they are are coming.

When all Marines are Primaris, no Marine is Primaris.

Not true unless they retcon the history of 40k. Marines are still Marines even though Thunderwarriors existed before. ^^

I meant that once the story progresses and all Marines are Primaris Marines (because that's what the fluff implies, or in the case of [yuck] War of Secrets, OUTRIGHT STATES), we won't need any different Datasheets in-game for Primaris and Non-Primaris. Everything will just be.... Primaris.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Spear of the Emperor pretty much confirms the ‘Primaris are a supplement for normal marines’ is entirely wrong. Some chapters may work like that, but it’s an exception. The Primaris in the book have a command squad of veterans for a battle company which also disproves the whole ‘don’t need old marine equivalent units’ is another wrong statement, since clearly they are are coming.

When all Marines are Primaris, no Marine is Primaris.

Not true unless they retcon the history of 40k. Marines are still Marines even though Thunderwarriors existed before. ^^

Reread what I wrote

Command squads aren’t a thing any more in the codex Astartes though.

 

However Primaris have had since their inception veterans who would have previously been in command squads, such as standard bearers and apothecaries.

 

I think the Emperors Spears diverge from the codex though, so maybe they still have whole command squads.

Primaris don’t have command squads right now, but they’ll come back is what the book is implying.

[redmapa]

The only thing Primaris are missing for a Command Squad are Company Veterans, give them combi-weapons or new more arcane special weapons or access to power weapons/storm shields and it could be a very useful unit for the current range of Primaris, you could just roll Company/Chapter Champions into the unit to be their squad leader, maybe acting as a mini EC with buffing the unit depending on his loadout (+1 shot with Rapid Fire weapons if he has RF weapon or +1A if he has a power weapon for example).

[Gederas]

The only thing Primaris are missing for a Command Squad are Company Veterans, give them combi-weapons or new more arcane special weapons or access to power weapons/storm shields and it could be a very useful unit for the current range of Primaris, you could just roll Company/Chapter Champions into the unit to be their squad leader, maybe acting as a mini EC with buffing the unit depending on his loadout (+1 shot with Rapid Fire weapons if he has RF weapon or +1A if he has a power weapon for example).

Yeah. A Company Command Squad is: Captain, Apothecary, Ancient, Company/Chapter Champion and Veterans.

 

We're really only missing Company/Chapter Champion and Veterans for Primaris.

[War Angel]

Command squads would suck though. Because it’s a squad they would be targetable. The command squad is the command structure of the company. They don’t need to be in one place, they can spread out to cover more ground on the battlefield and provide their firepower where needed best.

[Marshal Rohr]

In the lore or in the rules because the rules have never once properly reflected how a company’s command structure would work in any faction. They’ve always been a unit.

[FlamingDeth]

For my classic marines my headcannon is that my command squad has the apothecary, standard bearer, champion, and the last two guys are lieutenants -- same statline as all the other command squad folks, including their own little gimmick. So for me as long as they come out with a Primaris champion of some variety I'll be all set.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ultras can take a lot of the command squad as characters plus Honor Guard.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Yeah, Spear of the Emperor pretty much confirms the ‘Primaris are a supplement for normal marines’ is entirely wrong. Some chapters may work like that, but it’s an exception. The Primaris in the book have a command squad of veterans for a battle company which also disproves the whole ‘don’t need old marine equivalent units’ is another wrong statement, since clearly they are are coming.

When all Marines are Primaris, no Marine is Primaris.

Not true unless they retcon the history of 40k. Marines are still Marines even though Thunderwarriors existed before. ^^

Reread what I wrote

Nothing I wrote contradicts what you wrote. I wasn't replying to your post after all.

[Morovir]

The 'command squad' in Spear of the Emperor is made up of two Lieutenants (Battleguard), a Librarian and a Chaplain. All existing Primaris units, and nothing like the old command squad.