What’s missing from the Primaris line?

[Robbienw]

Yeah that's how they got used in the fluff initially because the initial batch lacked experience and many chapters didn't trust them until they've proven their worth, but it's not the picture one should get when looking at it objectively and especially not when looking at the crunch.

 

 

That's exactly what i was saying, they were used as cannon fodder in the beginning.

 

The DA still use them as cannon fodder/segregated task forces though up to the current point in the timeline, as evidenced by the Vigilus Defiant book.  Save for a few trusted veteran primaris.

[Panzer]

 

Yeah that's how they got used in the fluff initially because the initial batch lacked experience and many chapters didn't trust them until they've proven their worth, but it's not the picture one should get when looking at it objectively and especially not when looking at the crunch.

 

 

That's exactly what i was saying, they were used as cannon fodder in the beginning.

 

The DA still use them as cannon fodder/segregated task forces though up to the current point in the timeline, as evidenced by the Vigilus Defiant book.  Save for a few trusted veteran primaris.

 

 

And I wasn't disagreeing with you. I'm disagreeing with MegaVolt87.

[Robbienw]

Ah my mistake, i thought you were replying to me :)

[Marshal Rohr]

The 'command squad' in Spear of the Emperor is made up of two Lieutenants (Battleguard), a Librarian and a Chaplain. All existing Primaris units, and nothing like the old command squad.

Yeah, because five independent characters can form a unit?

[Morovir]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I assumed that the command squad of veterans that you referenced were the four Primaris accompanying Breac, though none of them would be veterans as described by the Codex.

[Marshal Rohr]

They certainly wouldn’t be junior officers either if they are referred to as ‘battle guard’ and fight at Breac’s side during battle. Lieutenants Command sub-units in a company not form bodyguards. In the novel they fill the exact same role as your standard oldmarine command squad.

[Robbienw]

Depends on the chapter.  Remember the Salamanders use Lieutenants as bodyguards to the company Captain.  Sounds like the Emperors Spears are doing the same thing.

 

Its different composition from a classic marine command squad from previous editions anyway.

[Morovir]

(responding to Marshal Rohr)

 

Yes, but they also have the red-and-black striped plumes described previously as being worn by Lieutenants and one of them describes his recent promotion from sergeant. The fact that it's referred to as an 'officer's crest' also supports this, as does the group's reference as 'elite warriors, the leadership echelon of the Third Warhost'.

 

In any case, it's hardly the case that the Emperor's Spears follow the strictures of the Codex to the letter anyway, with their Librarians and Chaplains carrying the accoutrements of Apothecaries, and so it is just as likely that their Lieutenants play a different role as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

The point here is there is a group of Primaris marines that fill the role on the table of a company command squad, established in a novel by a popular black library writer. There is no reason why command squads should not exist as a data sheet for every chapter. It’s ridiculous that someone can read about this squad and think to themselves ‘well that’s just five independent characters standing near each other we don’t need this cool classic unit that has always existed and exists in this same novel and would bring some much needed conversion opportunity and force org choices’. The Primaris line needs to fill the same roles as the old marine choices because the line is missing the very units that made old marines characterful.

[Closet Skeleton]

5 Independent characters could form a unit in editions where characters could join units.

 

If the game swung towards movement and dynamic play rather than sit there and shoot killhammer then perhaps we'd see more Tactical and Intercessor squads inside transports and again the need for a cheaper transport becomes apparent.

You need to move to win 40k, if your games are shooting matches you're using the wrong kinds of terrain and playing the wrong missions.

 

Knights are strong even without Stratagems, especially if you compare them to Marine vehicles. The Stratagems is just what pushes them to the top tables against other broken stuff like Eldar shenanigans. ^^

 

Knights are really weak without stratagems, the extra warlord traits and relics are what makes them so good. A regular knight paladin is way worse than its points in dreadnoughts while a mechanicus crusader with the relic gatling gun and reroll 1s warlord trait is a completely different beast.

 

Knights do fine with just stratagems to make them more elite. Primaris need something more general than the Ultramarine honour guard but not having to pay points for upgrades is a massive boon. Especially compared to 3rd-4th ed where it was easy to bloat veterans into inefficient upgrade puddles.

 

Command squads aren’t a thing any more in the codex Astartes though.
 

 

Command squads were never in the Codex Astartes, they were just things Captains hand picked on their own initiative. They only even exist because 3rd ed's limited HQ slots stopped 2nd ed's characters allowance from translating.

 

I was a command squad fan but there was never anything fluffy or characterful about apothecaries and standard bearers having to stand near each other all the time.

 

Ultramarine Victrix Guard show how any Primaris bodyguard unit is likely to work.

[Son of Sacrifice]

I would like to see Suppressors with melta guns. Effectiveness aside they would be fun to play.

[Lemondish]

The point here is there is a group of Primaris marines that fill the role on the table of a company command squad, established in a novel by a popular black library writer. There is no reason why command squads should not exist as a data sheet for every chapter. It’s ridiculous that someone can read about this squad and think to themselves ‘well that’s just five independent characters standing near each other we don’t need this cool classic unit that has always existed and exists in this same novel and would bring some much needed conversion opportunity and force org choices’. The Primaris line needs to fill the same roles as the old marine choices because the line is missing the very units that made old marines characterful.

Do not conflate a squad in a lore book with the rules for units in the game system.

[Robbienw]

 

 

Command squads aren’t a thing any more in the codex Astartes though.

 

 

Command squads were never in the Codex Astartes, they were just things Captains hand picked on their own initiative. They only even exist because 3rd ed's limited HQ slots stopped 2nd ed's characters allowance from translating.

 

I was a command squad fan but there was never anything fluffy or characterful about apothecaries and standard bearers having to stand near each other all the time.

 

 

They must have been in the Codex Astartes as an optional unit that a commander could use depending on their style of command or situation.  Otherwise they wouldn't have been used at all.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The point here is there is a group of Primaris marines that fill the role on the table of a company command squad, established in a novel by a popular black library writer. There is no reason why command squads should not exist as a data sheet for every chapter. It’s ridiculous that someone can read about this squad and think to themselves ‘well that’s just five independent characters standing near each other we don’t need this cool classic unit that has always existed and exists in this same novel and would bring some much needed conversion opportunity and force org choices’. The Primaris line needs to fill the same roles as the old marine choices because the line is missing the very units that made old marines characterful.

Do not conflate a squad in a lore book with the rules for units in the game system.

I’ll be sure to remember that the next time someone says Primaris should x or y because of their lore in a codex.

[TrawlingCleaner]

The point here is there is a group of Primaris marines that fill the role on the table of a company command squad, established in a novel by a popular black library writer. There is no reason why command squads should not exist as a data sheet for every chapter. It’s ridiculous that someone can read about this squad and think to themselves ‘well that’s just five independent characters standing near each other we don’t need this cool classic unit that has always existed and exists in this same novel and would bring some much needed conversion opportunity and force org choices’. The Primaris line needs to fill the same roles as the old marine choices because the line is missing the very units that made old marines characterful.

I genuinely think that filling the same roles as old marine choices would actually be a detriment to the Primaris range. Deathwatch don't need command squads for them to be iconic or characterful. Primaris have similar models and roles as the old boys but the more units that are coming out the more they diverge. The newest vanguard wave really shows this as it comes up with units we haven't really seen before: fast moving heavy support infantry that can fly, infiltrator units that aren't scouts that deny areas of the board and semi decent snipers. I'm not saying that I wouldn't love to see a Primaris command squad, they would be sick. I'm just saying that the Primaris range doesn't NEED it to be iconic. I think the more the range is filled out the more cool and iconic units will be produced.

[Boldthreat]

I think I’m on the side of Marshal on this one. I’m hoping that is why we haven’t gotten a stand alone box for Lt’s and ancients. Mind you I see the point of specialists like Apothecaries, Chaplains and Librarians and would willingly advocate for them to remain independent characters. But the command element of the Company should be able to fight as one. The company ancient should be escorted by the Company Champion. I honestly want my cake and to eat it to here I must admit. I like being able to buy independent characters like the ancient ect... but I would also like to use them as a combined unit.

 

And the cool thing is, I’m spitballing, is that they could really have some fun here. Maybe you can buy each specialist separately and they get the Benefit of independent special characters, but Buying them as a unit allows for additional command points... or specific chapter options that can really give each chapter a uniqueness.

[Warhead01]

I think I’m on the side of Marshal on this one. I’m hoping that is why we haven’t gotten a stand alone box for Lt’s and ancients. Mind you I see the point of specialists like Apothecaries, Chaplains and Librarians and would willingly advocate for them to remain independent characters. But the command element of the Company should be able to fight as one. The company ancient should be escorted by the Company Champion. I honestly want my cake and to eat it to here I must admit. I like being able to buy independent characters like the ancient ect... but I would also like to use them as a combined unit.

 

And the cool thing is, I’m spitballing, is that they could really have some fun here. Maybe you can buy each specialist separately and they get the Benefit of independent special characters, but Buying them as a unit allows for additional command points... or specific chapter options that can really give each chapter a uniqueness.

I don't care much for that myself.  I think the days of those kinds of units are gone. 

But a unit full of uniquely armed models, I think, already exists in the form of things like veteran squads and I could go for something like that for primaris. Because I would like a good choppy unit.

I feel that if they( specialist character units)  were to be part of a unit they should be less effective or potent than they are as a single model unit ( character)  as a penalty for having all those extra wounds to protect them. (Avoiding the models with 10 or more wound scenario) In the interest of balance.  In fact wouldn't that make them more vulnerable than they are as a character?  "Oh, that's a special unit? I'll gank that one first."  vs  "Oh, that's a character? ..if only I had some snipers."

 

[War Angel]

If you put them in a single squad then they can no longer be screened against. They work just as good individually, and you can keep them within 2 inches of each other so that they feel like a squad.

[MARK0SIAN]

If you put them in a single squad then they can no longer be screened against. They work just as good individually, and you can keep them within 2 inches of each other so that they feel like a squad.

That’s true but it’s always a pain in the ass trying to coordinate the charges of separate units who need to support each other. Playing death Company and trying to charge a unit of death Company marines, the chaplain and sanguinary priest into the same target so they can stay in buff range is harder than it should be.

 

If units like that are going to work together in combat they need to be able to move/charge together. If they have to give up screening for that I’d say it’s a fair trade.

[War Angel]

Ok, well then we run into an issue of balance. In past editions units alternated in close combat depending on initiative. Now all of a charging players units go first, with an exception to special rules and the interrupt stratagem. If you attached your chaplain to your death company then the opponents interrupt becomes a lot less useful. Based on the direction that they are going with the game, it’s not going to happen.

[Lemondish]

 

 

The point here is there is a group of Primaris marines that fill the role on the table of a company command squad, established in a novel by a popular black library writer. There is no reason why command squads should not exist as a data sheet for every chapter. It’s ridiculous that someone can read about this squad and think to themselves ‘well that’s just five independent characters standing near each other we don’t need this cool classic unit that has always existed and exists in this same novel and would bring some much needed conversion opportunity and force org choices’. The Primaris line needs to fill the same roles as the old marine choices because the line is missing the very units that made old marines characterful.

Do not conflate a squad in a lore book with the rules for units in the game system.

I’ll be sure to remember that the next time someone says Primaris should x or y because of their lore in a codex.

Not sure if you're trying to intentionally miss the point, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and explain further.

 

There is no reason to believe the concept of a squad in a novel about space marines follows the same attributes and mechanics of a unit of space marines in the game of 40k.

 

It turns out there are zero stories depicting a unit unable to move because Brother Ned wandered further than 2 yards away.

[Marshal Rohr]

But there are plenty of stories of Brother Ned belonging to a squad of chosen bodyguard and specialists escorting the master of the chapters, from the very first Heresy novels all the way into the Dark Imperium.

[Captain Idaho]

 

If the game swung towards movement and dynamic play rather than sit there and shoot killhammer then perhaps we'd see more Tactical and Intercessor squads inside transports and again the need for a cheaper transport becomes apparent.

 

You need to move to win 40k, if your games are shooting matches you're using the wrong kinds of terrain and playing the wrong missions.

 

That's not quite the context I intended. Games of 40K might have models moving around, but it's extreme firepower that wins games and putting Intercessors into the firing line or Tactical Marines will just result in their swift removal from the table.

[Volt]

Nobody needs a command squad either, they just need characters. Again reiterating a need to go back to old style character charts in a 'build a character' fashion, you should be able to just make a random elite character and have them fulfill anything from Chapter Ancient to Chapter Ancient. Thus you get a Command "Squad" which is comprised of five characters spread across the board (champion, apothecary, ancient, veteran, veteran). Although hopefully by the next edition the characters get a look at because the current un-targetable nature of them is awful.

[Guest Triszin]

So what do we think the repuslir ex is going to cost point wise?