Blood Ravens IA July

[Zakiriel]

I am pretty pleased with this representation of the Blood Ravens.

However I am not about to start repainting my Raptors as Blood Ravens.

But still a fun addition to the game.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Youre conflating raw with rai

And your horrifically off topic, and also probably wrong.

If you roll a 1 or a 2 on the die, it's a failure.

It doesn't matter what kinda bendy logic you use, that's both what the rule says in plain english, and also quite probably what the designers intended.

If you wanna go make a post, there's a place for that.

 

Anyway, tactic seems supbar.

Only helps against some very specific abilities or Str 8+ stuff.

Really only helps out Primaris stuff really, as against 1W stuff, people just won't overcharge their plasma. Which I mean, I guess is ok, but it's an incredibly reactive trait.

The reroll 1s for psychic tests could be good if the Librarius discipline wasn't so bad.

It is pretty cool that GW clarified that you could use any tactic with them, which is a nice nod to a beaten to death horse I guess, but also means you can run your BR as a secret *whatever* or adaptable and change up their tactics and not be limited by this.

Gabriels a beast, but requires a lot of investment to make it to combat.

Might see use in a gunline as a counter charge unit though, as he's not a bad chapter master.

Ah silly me, discussing the intracacies of a new rule, in the topic of the new rules imminent release, is off topic. I forgot how that works.

[Irbis]

Failing to wound on unmodified 1's and 2's regardless of modifiers is situational, but can work. Slows down a Smash Captain or equivalent that crashes into one of your squads. Charging Blood Angels with certain weapons, Vets of the Long War, certain GSC models, Knights, etc. It might be interesting for someone to at least look at.

 

Could also help Infiltrators survive even longer as objective holders.

 

Finally, their psykers get to reroll 1's to cast AND deny. Chaos has a Warlord trait that allows reroll 1's on casting and that has already proven pretty effective. That part of the trait is VERY nice.

 

Can "work"? Consider IH trait, already considered among weakest SM have, does the exact same thing (bumps up survival by 1/6), but applies to all wounds, not just S8+ ones, applies to all models, not just T4 ones (BR trait is junk on anything T5+ and dreads) - when 'bad' trait is vastly superior to your own, something is kinda wrong here.

 

As for chaos, gee, BR trait would be good if BR had demon princes and exalted sorcerers. Or chaos psychic power tables. Spoiler alert - they don't. Hell, it would be good if BR had GK grade psykers and powers. Again, they don't. Or say BA psychic dreads and Mephiston. Again, SM librarians and powers outside of niche vanguard combos are bad, and to add insult to injury, the chief librarian stratagem doesn't even add 1 cast to actually synergize with BR own tactic

 

for 184 pts angelos is a great value imho

 

Take one look what Calgar in TDA gets for +15 pts (spoiler alert - he is vastly better in every single possible respect, not to mention far more durable and grants extra CPs to boot) and repeat that again with straight face. If far better model doesn't see play that often and people feel it's overpriced for what it does, then its inferior is really bad no matter how you look at it.

 

Hell, you don't even need to look at Calgar - captain in cataphractii costs a little more than a half of what Angelos does, is more durable, and can take actual ranged weapons to make use of that BS 2+ that is just bumping Angelos points up for no reason...

 

Shrike's Chapter Tactic sucks for what he is. He has no ranged ability aside from grenades. That forces him into melee if he wants to do anything, where his Chapter Tactic is utterly useless.

 

Tell me again how useful -1 to hit outside 12" is for a guy who needs to be within 12" to do anything. And his Warlord trait is useless if he isn't charging.

 

I've play tested Shrike extensively. He's a melee focused character who can't survive in melee against anything but chaff. Getting to things quickly means nothing if you can't kill them when you get there.

 

Gabriel Angelos is just flat out better, both in damage potential and durability.

 

I would gladly pay an extra 35 points to get 1 more wound, a 2+ save, and mortal wounds on a 4+ when he charges. If Shrike had that he'd be an auto take in every Raven Guard list. As he currently is hardly anyone takes him unless they're building for fluff.

 

Grenades are still better than nothing at all, you know. His chapter tactic might not always apply to him, but it sure does apply to his vanguard TH buddies who drop with him to protect him from shooting (and with who he synergizes perfectly, Shrike charges in to shut down even worst overwatch combos in the game, while whatever he had with him follows and mops it up). Most importantly, he is a bargain compared to Angelos, if he is overpriced, then, well...

 

Compared to that, Angelos BS 2+ is a joke, his warlord trait is complete junk that will never be used, ever, his rules are a complete, disjointed mess (you want to have big beatstick character forward, in enemy face, but the only thing he does well is buffing gunlines, way in the rear, thought he costs far too much for that...), he is so slow kiting him is trivial, and ultimately he is less durable than even some captain builds. I have no idea who can look at that and decide 'oh, that's ok'. It's like Raven Guard had shooty units that don't want to be in melee with guns having 11 inch range, Angelos is that bad in trying to synergize with anything BR do.

 

But then there is real killer - BR chapter trait. To get any mileage at all out out it you need 2-3 librarians. That's already more than most marine lists spend on HQs. Guess who will be first on chopping block to fit libbies into your army? Or alternatively, who will make your chapter trait a complete joke if you shoehorn him in?

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Oh, and Angelos datasheet is inferior to what's current on FW for the same cost.

Patently false.

 

For the same points as the current FW one he gains +1 Attack, Sweeping Blows is way better with a much more reliable and predictable benefit, Leap Into the Fray is a lot more effective than Retribution, and his aura now allows you to reroll all hit rolls, not just failed ones.

 

He's a straight upgrade from the current one minus the removal of krak grenades.

I don't see this at all. Wade into a mob of Orks, Cultists, Guard, or Tyranids with FW Angelos and he's handing you a huge pile of attacks. Way more than 8, at the same profile. I completely discount sweeping blows and retribution. How many times do you charge in a game? Twice? Angelos only dies once, maybe, and you hope he doesn't. Is Leap better? Um, sure, but I don't really care about it.

Your personal feelings on the matter don't really impact the situation. It's better, full stop.

 

The predictability of sweeping blows makes it superior precisely during all those times where you will not be wading into a million chaff units. Sure, old Gabe would be a bit stronger in that specific circumstance, but weaker in all others. Now he's more predictable against things that matter a bit more. We can agree to disagree on sweeping blows, if you'd like.

 

But you've also conspicuously forgotten that he has a far superior reroll aura now that will help Blood Ravens combat negative modifiers. Not to mention an extra attack with the profile that is employed against the targets you really want dead, which is often far more important than beating up cultists.

 

I imagine your opponents would have no issue with you choosing to play the old profile if you so desire. I think that's a mistake, but who am I to get in the way of someone making an error in Warhammer.

[Brother Tyler]

A great gateway use of the Index articles would be for GW to include appropriate Kill Team rules (for relevant factions). The Elites book introduced sub-faction rules such as Chapter Tactics, So having the appropriate adaptations for the Blood Ravens would be an easy way to get players using them at small scale. This would more likely lead to players expanding their collections to use full WH40K armies. And if they also included relevant Apocalypse adaptations, we might see more huge armies of the relevant faction. I'm doubtful that GW did this with the Blood Ravens since they haven't done this for the other sub-factions covered via Index articles (e.g., Crimson Fists - they didn't even include the Crimson Fists' Chapter Tactics in the Elites book  ). I'll be happy to be wrong about this [for the Blood Ravens], so anyone that is in the know should feel free to let us know (or I'll find out in a few days when I buy my own copy).

 

As far as potency of rules go, I'm fine with the Index articles just giving us an interesting variation on a theme. I don't think that any sub-faction should suddenly become a must-have army. As long as the sub-faction remains comparable to the parent rules (e.g., in the case of the Blood Ravens, Codex: Space Marines) while being interesting to collect and play on the tabletop, that's mission: accomplished.

[Captain Idaho]

I particularly agree with that last point - if a Codex was competitive in itself rather than a faction, it wouldn't matter a bit about the faction rules so they stay as flavour.

[Orange Knight]

I quite like the Chapter Master, I think he's costed appropriately. I also like the fact that you can run this chapter with any of the Codex chapter tactics which gives them significant tactical flexibility. Raven Guard are a good choice for a tactic.

[Harleqvin]

I still think they should have made them able to upgrade sergeants into a small libby.

But still surprised they took away Gab’s grenades.

[Xenith]

Could the Thread Owner please update the first post with the relevant information? I don't want to trawl through 10 pages of rules arguments to see what they can do 

[Brother Tyler]

The issue is out and in the hands of our members (I have it, too ), so I'm moving this topic over to Index Astartes for continued discussion about the Blood Ravens lore and rules.

[Knight of the Raven]

I have it as well, although in French. And that's why I'm here.

I'm curious if the Blood Ravens' motto has been updated since the Space Marine video game. If I understand correctly, it was "We will never be found wanting again!" in the original language, and it was translated correctly in my version of the game. "Knowledge is power, guard it well" was translated with the same faithfulness in Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising, as well as in the White Dwarf article.

This same article, however, puts their current motto as "We will be perfection!" So, I'm curious if the Blood Ravens have updated their war cry once more, or if it's still something along the lines of "We will never be found wanting again!" and the French translators took one more of these liberties they seem to love so much.

[Brother Casman]

The new motto is "None shall find us wanting" in English, which feels like an old fashioned turn of phrase. Definitely not "We will be perfection" or anything along those lines - sounds like the translators took a bit of liberty in their work.

[Knight of the Raven]

Thank you.

It's possible they found the French 'We will never fail again!' too long, since their motto was used in the headline summary at the beginning of the Warhammer 40,000 articles. Or that they're not aware of the wording used in Space Marine; it's an old game.

 

Still a motto that belongs more with the Emperor's Children (possibly from the Dornian or Roboutian Heresies), or perhaps the Red Scorpions, than with the Blood Ravens.

[Brother Casman]

So, with the recent teaser of the new Space Marine traits, how do we think the Blood Ravens made out? The two-part trait makes rather more sense now, I think, though I doubt it's top tier (I'd probably grant that position to the Iron Hands and Salamanders).

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well there's two answers.

 

The first one is that they didn't write it in line for the new codex and you can see this in the fact that the wounding restriction is extremely limited on vehicles, while the psyker part just doesn't change at all. Two part traits aren't indicative of anything as the ultramarines always had a two part.

 

The second answer is the blood ravens came out on top as you can pick any of the traits and they allow for more diverse and experimental lists without losing angelos or any benefit the chief librarian brings.

 

But really I hope they get an extra part seeing as the crimson fists got updated.

[Brother Casman]

So, I caught the Warhammer Twitch stream talking about creating Successor Chapters with the new Codex, and it turns out that both parts of the Blood Ravens trait are options players can choose when creating their own Chapters. So, I'm inclined to see the WD trait as GW's suggestion, with the option of switching to something else that one may feel better represents the way they play.

[SkimaskMohawk]

That's some garbage then, they put absolutely no effort into the release. Oh well, why not take the best chapter tactics then, or just count as if you don't plan on taking angelos and get all the ultramarines supplement stuff

[mawhis]

Clutching at straws slightly, but hopefully the Psychic Awakening might make the Stratagem more useful