Blood Ravens IA July

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

 

 

Pretty underwhelming CT to be honest...

First time I read I thought it would be ignoring 1,2,3 (similar to the IK and chaos knights). That would be amazing.

But just twos is not good. Also if you take certain primaris stuff it only activates an S10+.

Technically, it also shuts down stuff like votlw, but yeah, it's kind of silly how you need to bring primaris or terminators to use BR tactic most of the time.

 

Not really. It says unmodified would rolls of 1 and 2. VotLW is a modifier. So a 3 turning into a 2 still works.

The unmodified roll is still a 1 or 2 regardless of modifiers they change the result not the die roll. This is the same wording for rolls of 1 always fail rule.

 

 

Nobody is denying that. But you can still wound on a 2 if it's actually an unmodified 3 with a +1 modifier like with VotLW or the Blood Angels chapter tactic or the T'au Focussed Fire Stratagem.

 

So?

 

If the modified 3 was going to wound anyway then that's the same thing as VotlW being irrelevant. It still means that you can't wound better than a 3. If it was modified 2s and that meant a 3+ to wound weapon wound actually be worse with VotlW that would be dumb.

[Brother Casman]

I'm pretty sure that's not how "unmodified" works, there sfPanzer. A roll of 2, with a +1 would be a modified 2.

 

Edit: that is to say, it gets modified from a 2 to a 3

Edited July 15, 2019 by Brother Casman

[SkimaskMohawk]

@lemondish for me at least, thats not true. I don't care if their unique warlord trait would have been bad or good, just that it would have added more flavour to the chapter that I'm planning on restarting since my initial go at it in 4th. Imo it's pretty hard to beat CF at this point for pure crunch, but that's ok. I just like parity in terms of releases, and thre blood ravens certainly have enough content to pull inspiration from.

 

@sfpanzer, that's not how modifiers work.

[Panzer]

Alright, I had a huge brainfart and got things backwards. My bad. Blame being distracted from actual work stuff when being at work. 

[Sete]

Cant see the pics at work, but will have a look when I get home. Im not a fan of Relic pistols (looking at you Imperial Fists).

Will give a proper opinion as soon as I see everything.

[ERJAK]

The first part of the chapter tactics seems rather niche, with it only working against S8+ weapons. The reroll could be nice, but sadly SM psykers generally aren’t that great. The stratagem would be very good if it allowed another cast, but only knowing a power and getting another deny aren’t that great either.

+ DW special ammo and poison.

[Mekhitar]

The trait is pretty cool from my perspective - I run a lot of s8+ daemon engines that now wound only on 3s, plasma is on 3s, relic battle cannons and Russ executioners and basilisks and manticores - all on 3s - knight stomps on 3s, even volcano lances and knight fists and the like vs dreads on 3s.

 

I’m not sure what you guys see a lot of at your games, but I think that’s pretty cool. And the reroll 1s is just s nice little bonus.

[Gederas]

I just realised that they made his jump move from DoW3 a thing... lmao

I mean.... He is wearing Tartaros Armour, which apparently has all the defenses of Terminator Armour, but none of the agility drawbacks..... So.... Why not? :lol:

 

The pistol being able to replace a heavy bolt pistol is interesting. I don't believe any characters currently have one, tells us one in the near future will. Probably that blurry lieutenant we've seen in the Primaris video the other week. 

Ooooh, good catch! Only units currently that have Heavy Bolt Pistols are Reivers, as the Primaris Apothecary and Chaplain have different Bolt Pistol Variants, and all the other Primaris characters have regular Bolt Pistols. Interesting....

 

[Irbis]

 

 

Pretty underwhelming CT to be honest...

First time I read I thought it would be ignoring 1,2,3 (similar to the IK and chaos knights). That would be amazing.

But just twos is not good. Also if you take certain primaris stuff it only activates an S10+.

 

Technically, it also shuts down stuff like votlw, but yeah, it's kind of silly how you need to bring primaris or terminators to use BR tactic most of the time.

 

 

Not really. It says unmodified would rolls of 1 and 2. VotLW is a modifier. So a 3 turning into a 2 still works.

 

My bad. I was trying to find at least some positives, if it really doesn't even shut down plusses to wound roll the "tactic" is bad and will almost never see play besides niche combos

 

Angelos is fine! People's expectations are shockingly over the top!

"Fine"? "Over the top"?

 

Compare him to Calgar in termie armor. +15 points gives you much better statline, vastly better gear, halved damage, ranged weapons, better rules, extra CPs, the works. For nearly identical cost. And termie Calgar rarely sees play because people feel he is too expensive. "Fine"?

 

Then there is Helbrecht/Shrike. Both pay vastly less for their chapter master upgrade, have relics that are much better than standard weapons instead of just bland standard hammer with rare mortal wound on top, and much better rules. Frankly, Angelos should cost about as much as these two, not being 35 pts more expensive for no reason (such as better chapter trait to balance out his mediocrity) instead...

 

flat 3 damage weapon with no minus

 

Maybe you should read his rules. If he had no minus, he would at least be a bit closer to being just overpriced.

[Claws and Effect]

Ahem.

 

Look at Shrike's statline. He has a Captain statline. Other Chapter Masters have 6 wounds and a 2+ save.

 

If Gabriel Angelos costed the same as him while being that much more potent, I'd be pretty upset.

[Captain Idaho]

Ah I missed that part. Minus one to hit means he is overpriced a little.

 

But I stand by it; he's pretty good. 165pts would be more like it.

[Lemondish]

Ah I missed that part. Minus one to hit means he is overpriced a little.

 

But I stand by it; he's pretty good. 165pts would be more like it.

Not really overpriced at all.

 

You folks seem to have missed the most important part of his reroll aura...

 

It says hit rolls. Not failed hit rolls. It's a Cawl aura. That's huge for fighting negative modifiers.

 

And the most important part of the Chapter tactic, in my eyes, is the reroll for psychic tests.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Lemondish

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, angelos is really quite bad for what you pay. He's a generic, pure melee beatstick with a full reroll to hit aura. Hes harder to kill due to the chapter tactic, but has no synergy with it or his warlord trait and he doesn't support his units like other chapter masters.

 

Comparing again to the fists, Kantor is 150 and has pretty much the exact same statline, despite not being in terminator armour. His warlord trait synergizes with his chapter tactic to result in 5+d3 powerfist attacks that hit on 2s when outnumbered by enough. He has a decent ranged weapon that marginally benefits from his tactic, but also has stratagem synergy. His +1 attack aura also further supports msu units and adds to the inherent synergy with the chapter tactic. Angelos has deepstrike, flat 3 damage and somersault flip-charge +35 over him.

 

And that's fine; angelos is bad and I'll still use him and groan when he kills people with mortal wounds on the charge.

 

EDIT: the cawl-style aura definitely makes him better in that case and offsets his thunderhammer (yay I can say his rules have synergy lol) and will definitely be useful as 8th loves them modifiers.

Edited July 15, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Irbis]

Look at Shrike's statline. He has a Captain statline. Other Chapter Masters have 6 wounds and a 2+ save.

 

If Gabriel Angelos costed the same as him while being that much more potent, I'd be pretty upset.

 

Shrike is faster, has better chapter tactic, pays much less for CM upgrade, can't be targeted by overwatch, has much better anti-mook weapon, and most importantly unlike Angelos he is actually likely to get into melee with what he wants. There is reason people take HQs with jump packs instead of terminator armor now, you know. More potent? In what way? Niche usages shouldn't cost more than much more versatile models.

 

But I stand by it; he's pretty good. 165pts would be more like it.

Yeah, if he costed 160-165 points, he would be... well, still weak, but at least it wouldn't feel like a slap in the face. I mean, Cataphractii captain is much more durable (and can take more versatile loadout) than Angelos for nearly half the price. Whatever way you look at him, copy-paste of his points from old, rushed FW datasheet (that funnily enough lost the only ranged weapon he had) without a single fix to his issues is just

 

The trait is pretty cool from my perspective - I run a lot of s8+ daemon engines that now wound only on 3s, plasma is on 3s, relic battle cannons and Russ executioners and basilisks and manticores - all on 3s - knight stomps on 3s, even volcano lances and knight fists and the like vs dreads on 3s.

 

You're missing one thing. S8 only applies to T4. Gravis/bike units? Tactic becomes nearly useless. Dreads? Ditto, unless enemy has titan grade weapons targeting them. Vehicles? Haha no. People complain all the time SM traits only apply to half of the book, but BR trait only really applies to W2 T4 infantry and librarians, on top of being rather weak. Getting something that bad (and obviously not tested in any way) after chaos got tons of new, characterful traits just reeks of zero effort being spent on this IA...

[Lemondish]

I think I'll be adding in a Blood Ravens librarian to my cross chapter Libby supreme command detachment.

[Captain Idaho]

The dude has 8 attacks against Red Shirts. That's pretty cool. And rerolling 2s because he has a better aura is nice and offsets his minus to hit.

[Lemondish]

The dude has 8 attacks against Red Shirts. That's pretty cool. And rerolling 2s because he has a better aura is nice and offsets his minus to hit.

 

The chapter tactic points to lots of T4/2W infantry as being a bit more survivable - so Primaris and Terminators. It's a pity that it refers specifically to abilities rather than all effects as it doesn't read as if strats will be denied. In any case, slightly more survivable Termies might be a good starting point for a Blood Ravens force. Not meta breaking (who thought it would be?), but interesting. 

 

Relic Heavy Bolt pistol definitely helps imply the new LT. will be Reiver focused - agreed there. 

[Sete]

CT still better than Black Templars one.

I had a laugh. True, true.

 

Yeah its not too bad and the stratagem is fluffy.

[Claws and Effect]

 

Look at Shrike's statline. He has a Captain statline. Other Chapter Masters have 6 wounds and a 2+ save.

 

If Gabriel Angelos costed the same as him while being that much more potent, I'd be pretty upset.

Shrike is faster, has better chapter tactic, pays much less for CM upgrade, can't be targeted by overwatch, has much better anti-mook weapon, and most importantly unlike Angelos he is actually likely to get into melee with what he wants. There is reason people take HQs with jump packs instead of terminator armor now, you know. More potent? In what way? Niche usages shouldn't cost more than much more versatile models.

Shrike's Chapter Tactic sucks for what he is. He has no ranged ability aside from grenades. That forces him into melee if he wants to do anything, where his Chapter Tactic is utterly useless.

 

Tell me again how useful -1 to hit outside 12" is for a guy who needs to be within 12" to do anything. And his Warlord trait is useless if he isn't charging.

 

I've play tested Shrike extensively. He's a melee focused character who can't survive in melee against anything but chaff. Getting to things quickly means nothing if you can't kill them when you get there.

 

Gabriel Angelos is just flat out better, both in damage potential and durability.

 

I would gladly pay an extra 35 points to get 1 more wound, a 2+ save, and mortal wounds on a 4+ when he charges. If Shrike had that he'd be an auto take in every Raven Guard list. As he currently is hardly anyone takes him unless they're building for fluff.

[Panzer]

 

 

Look at Shrike's statline. He has a Captain statline. Other Chapter Masters have 6 wounds and a 2+ save.

 

If Gabriel Angelos costed the same as him while being that much more potent, I'd be pretty upset.

Shrike is faster, has better chapter tactic, pays much less for CM upgrade, can't be targeted by overwatch, has much better anti-mook weapon, and most importantly unlike Angelos he is actually likely to get into melee with what he wants. There is reason people take HQs with jump packs instead of terminator armor now, you know. More potent? In what way? Niche usages shouldn't cost more than much more versatile models.

Shrike's Chapter Tactic sucks for what he is. He has no ranged ability aside from grenades. That forces him into melee if he wants to do anything, where his Chapter Tactic is utterly useless.

 

Tell me again how useful -1 to hit outside 12" is for a guy who needs to be within 12" to do anything. And his Warlord trait is useless if he isn't charging.

 

I've play tested Shrike extensively. He's a melee focused character who can't survive in melee against anything but chaff. Getting to things quickly means nothing if you can't kill them when you get there.

 

 

I never understood the argument that the RG chapter tactic doesn't help melee units. It helps them survive before they are in charge range which means you have more models reaching the enemy which means you do more damage.

It might not be overly useful for characters with <10 wounds but it's definitely good for the rest of the chapter that comes along with him.

[Dracos]

They both have their strengths and weaknesses but experience has shown Shrike as build is overcosted compared to other named characters and what they bring competitively to the meta. I’d like to see some non theory hammer experiences before I make a judgment on Angelos being better or worse.

[toaae]

The full page, minus Angelos:

 

 

Interesting to note that Blood Ravens aren't locked into their trait:

 

"If your army includes any Blood Raven Detachments... then when determing which Chapter Tactic units in a Blood Ravens Detachment gain, you can either choose the Capter Tactic that you feel best represents Blood Ravens on the battlefield (as described in Codex: Space Marines) or you can choose the Blood Ravens: Relentless Seekers chapter tactic presented here."

So, unlike other named chapters, they aren't locked into their trait choice. While it's super common for players to use whatever trait they want, for the Blood Ravens, this is actually 100% supported by the rules.

[Ishagu]

The -1 to hit isn't a big issue as he re rolls everything.

So he's hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s and 2s. That's still 9/10 hits.

 

This might also be a snap shot into how re-rolls will work in the next codex? Marines really suffer against armies that can stack negative modifiers. This could be a partial solution.

[Claws and Effect]

I never understood the argument that the RG chapter tactic doesn't help melee units. It helps them survive before they are in charge range which means you have more models reaching the enemy which means you do more damage.

It might not be overly useful for characters with <10 wounds but it's definitely good for the rest of the chapter that comes along with him.

Never said it wasn't good for melee units.

 

I said it wasn't good for Shrike specifically.

 

If Shrike is ever in a position to be targeted by anything but snipers and his tactic applies, you've already screwed up pretty bad.

 

Personally, I think Gabe's points cost is perfectly fine. He's right in line with similarly costed melee focused characters.

 

He also has 2 different ways to deal mortal wounds. On a perfect roll he'll deal 8 mortal wounds, on top of the 15 regular damage he'll put out.

 

And that's on top of his Chapter Tactic not letting him get wounded on less than a 3, making him tougher than most other Chapter Masters.

[Captain Idaho]

Can someone explain just whether Relentless Seekers works before rerolls? Because I don't get the stipulation that wound rolls of a one fail to wound them - That's standard!

 

If it's a straight fail before abilities allow for rerolling... well that's quite good.