Blood Ravens IA July

[Ishagu]

Can someone explain just whether Relentless Seekers works before rerolls? Because I don't get the stipulation that wound rolls of a one fail to wound them - That's standard!

 

If it's a straight fail before abilities allow for rerolling... well that's quite good.

A 1 always fails to wound. Against Blood Ravens a 1 AND a 2 always fail to wound.

 

It's as if they were T5 against str8 weapons. But it also helps against anything that might have a +1 to wound modifier. You can never damage them unless you roll a 3+ to wound or higher.

 

Edit : Typo

[Lemondish]

Can someone explain just whether Relentless Seekers works before rerolls? Because I don't get the stipulation that wound rolls of a one fail to wound them - That's standard!

 

If it's a straight fail before abilities allow for rerolling... well that's quite good.

 

The distinction is necessary to avoid any situations where one could argue that it supersedes the roll of one failing to wound rule. The redundancy is 100% welcome here, as always. 

 

The real question is whether a stratagem is considered an ability bestowed upon a model or weapon. I'd say no here. 

[toaae]

The real question is whether a stratagem is considered an ability bestowed upon a model or weapon. I'd say no here.

...What?

 

Are you suggesting that since a stratagem isn't an "ability that the weapon or the model making the attack may have", that the trait wouldn't affect them? That seems monstrously rules-lawyer-y. The first half of the the trait doesn't change; an unmodified 1 or 2 always fails. Is the die physically a 1 or 2? It fails.

[SkimaskMohawk]

But a stratagem isn't an ability that the model or weapon has, that's what the ability says you ignore.

[Tokugawa]

Now i believe they dont have heredity links with TSons.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Angelos looks like a good character if your army is based around having a bunch of footslogging marines. He'd be good if that sort of army was good. If marines were a bit more durable and had a bit better firepower, it could be good. And its main counter would be plasma spam, which this trait is good against. So as usual with space marines, the problem is that marines overall just aren't very efficient. He'd be an amazing character back in 4th or 5th ed.

[CCE1981]

I guess if you are going Librarian heavy Blood Ravens are good. It’s kinda meh, but at least it is very different, so I will give GW props for that.

[Guest Triszin]

for 184 pts angelos is a great value imho

[templargdt]

Failing to wound on 1's or 2's and a relic pistol was, uh, definitely not what I was expecting or hoping for.  If Intercessors and Terminators were hot stuff, that would be something.  We're on version 3 I think of the Intercessor and they aren't exactly amazing.  Terminators haven't been good since forever.  I don't see how you can argue this as anything as straight inferior to the RG tactic, and probably the IH one as well.

The one use Chief Librarian upgrade is also frankly highly disappointing.  That tactic should be a generic one in C:SM, like Chapter Master.  There should be one for the Master of Sanctity, Chief Apothecary, and Master of the Forge now that I think about it.

Oh, and Angelos datasheet is inferior to what's current on FW for the same cost.    

I'll still buy the White Dwarf for collecting purposes and hopefully some new background, but what a missed opportunity.  

[Lemondish]

The real question is whether a stratagem is considered an ability bestowed upon a model or weapon. I'd say no here.

...What?

 

Are you suggesting that since a stratagem isn't an "ability that the weapon or the model making the attack may have", that the trait wouldn't affect them? That seems monstrously rules-lawyer-y. The first half of the the trait doesn't change; an unmodified 1 or 2 always fails. Is the die physically a 1 or 2? It fails.

I'm all sorts of messed up - I have no idea what I was thinking. Perhaps because you are only supposed to ignore abilities?

 

Modifiers and their relationships always throw me for a loop lol

 

Oh, and Angelos datasheet is inferior to what's current on FW for the same cost.

Patently false.

 

For the same points as the current FW one he gains +1 Attack, Sweeping Blows is way better with a much more reliable and predictable benefit, Leap Into the Fray is a lot more effective than Retribution, and his aura now allows you to reroll all hit rolls, not just failed ones.

 

He's a straight upgrade from the current one minus the removal of krak grenades.

[Panzer]

The one use Chief Librarian upgrade is also frankly highly disappointing.  That tactic should be a generic one in C:SM, like Chapter Master.  There should be one for the Master of Sanctity, Chief Apothecary, and Master of the Forge now that I think about it.

 

100% agreed.

[Angel of Solitude]

The -1 to hit isn't a big issue as he re rolls everything.

So he's hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s and 2s. That's still 9/10 hits.

 

This might also be a snap shot into how re-rolls will work in the next codex? Marines really suffer against armies that can stack negative modifiers. This could be a partial solution.

This is now the second time we have seen re-rolls phrased as "re-roll hit rolls" instead of "re-roll failed hit rolls", with Chaos Knights being the second example. This is certainly a conscious change on GW's part which seems likely to them looking to introduce ways to counter the Altaioc flyer lists we're seeing.

 

The fact that they've introduced this wording to a Space Marine unit may suggest that bigger changes are on the way to ensure consistency.

[Kastor Krieg]

 

The one use Chief Librarian upgrade is also frankly highly disappointing.  That tactic should be a generic one in C:SM, like Chapter Master.  There should be one for the Master of Sanctity, Chief Apothecary, and Master of the Forge now that I think about it.

 

100% agreed.

Maybe it's a sign of what's coming in the new Marine dex, what with the new Intercessor profile, Angels of Death and all.

[MagicHat]

 

The -1 to hit isn't a big issue as he re rolls everything.

So he's hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s and 2s. That's still 9/10 hits.

 

This might also be a snap shot into how re-rolls will work in the next codex? Marines really suffer against armies that can stack negative modifiers. This could be a partial solution.

This is now the second time we have seen re-rolls phrased as "re-roll hit rolls" instead of "re-roll failed hit rolls", with Chaos Knights being the second example. This is certainly a conscious change on GW's part which seems likely to them looking to introduce ways to counter the Altaioc flyer lists we're seeing.

 

The fact that they've introduced this wording to a Space Marine unit may suggest that bigger changes are on the way to ensure consistency.

 

 

Cawl had it since the Index, but Chaos Knight codex could certainly indicate an increase in it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The -1 to hit isn't a big issue as he re rolls everything.

So he's hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s and 2s. That's still 9/10 hits.

 

This might also be a snap shot into how re-rolls will work in the next codex? Marines really suffer against armies that can stack negative modifiers. This could be a partial solution.

This is now the second time we have seen re-rolls phrased as "re-roll hit rolls" instead of "re-roll failed hit rolls", with Chaos Knights being the second example. This is certainly a conscious change on GW's part which seems likely to them looking to introduce ways to counter the Altaioc flyer lists we're seeing.

 

The fact that they've introduced this wording to a Space Marine unit may suggest that bigger changes are on the way to ensure consistency.

Cawl had it since the Index, but Chaos Knight codex could certainly indicate an increase in it.

Chaos Marine Codex has it for Abaddon and in many other places (Dark Apostle, Master of Executions, Worldclaimer, etc.). Our Vigilus stuff has a few rules like that too. We got a pretty big overhaul in that regard recently.

 

 

Failing to wound on 1's or 2's and a relic pistol was, uh, definitely not what I was expecting or hoping for. If Intercessors and Terminators were hot stuff, that would be something. We're on version 3 I think of the Intercessor and they aren't exactly amazing. Terminators haven't been good since forever. I don't see how you can argue this as anything as straight inferior to the RG tactic, and probably the IH one as well.

 

The one use Chief Librarian upgrade is also frankly highly disappointing. That tactic should be a generic one in C:SM, like Chapter Master. There should be one for the Master of Sanctity, Chief Apothecary, and Master of the Forge now that I think about it.

 

Oh, and Angelos datasheet is inferior to what's current on FW for the same cost.

I'll still buy the White Dwarf for collecting purposes and hopefully some new background, but what a missed opportunity.

Failing to wound on unmodified 1's and 2's regardless of modifiers is situational, but can work. Slows down a Smash Captain or equivalent that crashes into one of your squads. Charging Blood Angels with certain weapons, Vets of the Long War, certain GSC models, Knights, etc. It might be interesting for someone to at least look at.

 

Could also help Infiltrators survive even longer as objective holders.

 

Finally, their psykers get to reroll 1's to cast AND deny. Chaos has a Warlord trait that allows reroll 1's on casting and that has already proven pretty effective. That part of the trait is VERY nice.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I feel like we gotta wait and see what the new book is going to be like. You can make a chief librarian that knows 4 powers, denies 3, rerolls 1s on the cast and deny...but can only cast 2 a turn. Plus, the librarius discipline is kind of bad. So we gotta wait and see

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Need more psybell .

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

But a stratagem isn't an ability that the model or weapon has, that's what the ability says you ignore.

It also specifies that an "unmodified" 1 or 2 always fails, so even if you are a Blood Angel or have Vets of the Long War, if the die, with no modifiers, comes up a 2, you lose. Just like "unmodified" 6's for mortal wounds on certain abilities.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Right, but you don't just stop reading the sentence halfway through. It tells you that the unmodified roll of a 1 or 2 always fails, irrespective of any abilities the weapon or model has. A blood angel has the ability "Red Thirst"; he wouldn't wound on a 2+. A chaos space marine does not possess the ability "veterans of the long war" as a stratagem is not an ability; he would wound on a 2+.

 

Now, an interesting side benefit is that the blood ravens block rerolls to wound that land on a 1 or 2.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Right, but you don't just stop reading the sentence halfway through. It tells you that the unmodified roll of a 1 or 2 always fails, irrespective of any abilities the weapon or model has. A blood angel has the ability "Red Thirst"; he wouldn't wound on a 2+. A chaos space marine does not possess the ability "veterans of the long war" as a stratagem is not an ability; he would wound on a 2+.

 

Now, an interesting side benefit is that the blood ravens block rerolls to wound that land on a 1 or 2.

The Chaos Marine wouldn't wound because he's employing a modifier. Just because it also tosses out abilities doesn't mean it is not also calling for unmodified rolls. The wording states "irrespective," i.e. it doesn't care, instead of being very specific about just negating the abilities. Nothing about the second part of the sentence puts any qualifiers on the word "unmodified," it just adds a clause regarding things on the opponent's end.

 

The "irrespective" part is largely relevant for weapons or abilities that "always wound on x," which could specify a 2+.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Irrespective of what? You gotta finish that sentence; it doesn't care about abilities that are granted by weapons or models.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Irrespective of what? You gotta finish that sentence; it doesn't care about abilities that are granted by weapons or models.

Correct, but that places no restrictions on the word "unmodified." That stays and the "irrespective" section adds to it. The second part of the sentence is additive. The words it uses place no conditions on the first part, there is no wording that says that "unmodified" applies only to weapons or abilities, simply that it ignores them in the course of doing what it does.

 

The literal definition of "irrespective" is "does not take into account." If the rules of my workplace say that despite other people not being allowed to open red doors, I can open a door irrespective of whether it is red. That doesn't mean I suddenly lose permission to open doors that are not red.

 

 

EDIT: Prime examples of weapons that always wound on 2+ and need to be addressed by this wording are certain DE CC weapons like the blade that the Lhamean carries.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Youre conflating raw with rai

[The Unseen]

Youre conflating raw with rai

And your horrifically off topic, and also probably wrong.

If you roll a 1 or a 2 on the die, it's a failure.

It doesn't matter what kinda bendy logic you use, that's both what the rule says in plain english, and also quite probably what the designers intended.

If you wanna go make a post, there's a place for that.

 

Anyway, tactic seems supbar.

Only helps against some very specific abilities or Str 8+ stuff.

Really only helps out Primaris stuff really, as against 1W stuff, people just won't overcharge their plasma. Which I mean, I guess is ok, but it's an incredibly reactive trait.

The reroll 1s for psychic tests could be good if the Librarius discipline wasn't so bad.

It is pretty cool that GW clarified that you could use any tactic with them, which is a nice nod to a beaten to death horse I guess, but also means you can run your BR as a secret *whatever* or adaptable and change up their tactics and not be limited by this.

Gabriels a beast, but requires a lot of investment to make it to combat.

Might see use in a gunline as a counter charge unit though, as he's not a bad chapter master.

[templargdt]

 

Oh, and Angelos datasheet is inferior to what's current on FW for the same cost.

Patently false.

 

For the same points as the current FW one he gains +1 Attack, Sweeping Blows is way better with a much more reliable and predictable benefit, Leap Into the Fray is a lot more effective than Retribution, and his aura now allows you to reroll all hit rolls, not just failed ones.

 

He's a straight upgrade from the current one minus the removal of krak grenades.

 

I don't see this at all.  Wade into a mob of Orks, Cultists, Guard, or Tyranids with FW Angelos and he's handing you a huge pile of attacks.  Way more than 8, at the same profile.  I completely discount sweeping blows and retribution.  How many times do you charge in a game?  Twice?  Angelos only dies once, maybe, and you hope he doesn't.  Is Leap better?  Um, sure, but I don't really care about it.