Forge World Bans

[Schlitzaf]

So short version, a lot of recent discussion another FW bans have come out on this forum. The short and sweet feeling for me? It’s I am mostly against FW bans. But the extension is that it is relatable for those who want to due to access reasons (FW Units tend to about 50% more to even twice that of comparable GW units).

 

And someone mentioned banning webstore products in their store. I heard one story of a red shirt actually doing just that for similar reasons to FW bans. With Apoc right around the corner I feel it’s a discussion brewing on this forum worth having. I guess the foremost feeling for me? Is that a FW Units, are well if I showed you the rules of a unit without context asking if GW or FW, how many of us when dealing with a faction we rarely play or otherwise could tell?

 

The issue of access is more complicated, where the strongest merit for blackshirts are. Because it hurts bottom line to be buying from FW and not them. I think the main thing with FW, which I feel has been well done this edition. Is rule access and compatibility.

 

When the units are locked behind 75+ Dollar Books like Siege of Vraks there a definite initial price wall. However by having them in 20-30 dollar indexes, I think helps ameliorate that. Which is why by extension I feel the physical indexes should been still sold in GW or atleast on Webstore.

 

Second, I think atleast on local level, certain FW options provide great points for upselling. If a kid wanted to make Secutari Hoplites, a store manager could help him and look at similar kits the kid could buy in store that would give ultimately a similar aethestic.

 

If access is the issue, what is the access issue? The FW price or lack of store supporting? And on personal level for you, does being beaten by OP Unit FW 84 feel worse than OP GW 62. I’d say potentially (Malefic Pyskers) if it is due to a unit breaking standard game conventions should been caught in design.

 

A but a unit like the various Dreadnought (Leviathen) no, not really for me personally. Because the Leviathen doesn’t feel out of place in the larger 40k context. My 2 cents.

[PeteySödes]

I'm in an area where the only FW bans I see are just tournament limitations, and even those seem fairly arbitrary most times. I think its lazy, as people have pointed out 1000 times that most FW is overcosted. It's just units that are hyper efficient like the vulture or palladius that kinda ruin it. 

 

I think GW has done a pretty good job with points adjustments for the most part, bans and limits just kinda slow progress I think.

[DuskRaider]

GW has integrated FW models into their rules now more than ever. Bans and folks who refuse to play against FW models stem from unfounded belief that they're overpowered (it's often just the opposite), unfamiliarity with the rules (which you should always have on you to clarify), and quite frankly outright jealousy. It's the "if I can't have it no one should" mindset that's plaguing society in general.

 

My advice is of you run into an individual that doesn't want you using the models you spent your hard earned cash on, don't play against them because that's just usually the tip of the iceberg of the unfun factor with this individual.

 

As far as shops banning then, it comes down to revenue. Most don't stock FW product. I would go elsewhere with my business.

Edited June 19, 2019 by DuskRaider

[MARK0SIAN]

My view is that there is no reasonable justification for any kind of Forgeworld ban:

 

1) The units aren’t Overpowered/undercosted (quite the opposite)

 

2) I doubt anyone is familiar with every possible GW unit in every standard codex they may face so a lack of opposition familiarity is not a problem, particularly with the simplified profiles in 8th edition.

 

3) Yes They’re expensive in cash terms but that doesn’t buy you anything extra on the table and you can buy a cheaper GW product that can counter or exceed most FW stuff

 

4) Big models have been a part of 8th edition since the start.

 

5) Everyone who doesn’t live near Nottingham has to buy them through the web store so it’s not like some people have much easier access to them than others.

 

6) Working with resin is a pain in the backside compared to plastic but no one is forcing anyone to do that to be competitive, as I said there’s plastic stuff available that often works better than the FW stuff or at least is more appropriately pointed.

 

The bans that exist are a hangover from another era and there is no reason they should still be in place.

[Trench]

Seems silly to me that places would ban the use of a whole range of products sold by GW under the guise of better balance when if you are that worried about balance the last game you would choose to play is 40k in which GW has never even managed to get close to balancing the units in a codex.

 

The price argument is even more silly, as banning someone from using a model because some others cannot afford it is crazy, should that mean I should not get to use my plastic Great Unclean One when the other Nurgle player at my club is still saving up to buy his, obviously not so why should that rule apply to FW units.

 

Luckily in my 19 years of war gaming I have never had to play in an environment that takes the game that seriously, so the reaction to someone bringing a FW unit is wow cool, pleased to see something unusual.

 

I just wish GW would stop pretending FW is a separate entity and start including all the FW units in an armies codex to end this nonsense. 

[MegaVolt87]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/356567-gw-and-the-forge-world-question-an-official-response/page-2   BRUH we already got a nice discussion about this I started recently and got an official response. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[Gederas]

Seems silly to me that places would ban the use of a whole range of products sold by GW under the guise of better balance when if you are that worried about balance the last game you would choose to play is 40k in which GW has never even managed to get close to balancing the units in a codex.

 

The price argument is even more silly, as banning someone from using a model because some others cannot afford it is crazy, should that mean I should not get to use my plastic Great Unclean One when the other Nurgle player at my club is still saving up to buy his, obviously not so why should that rule apply to FW units.

 

Luckily in my 19 years of war gaming I have never had to play in an environment that takes the game that seriously, so the reaction to someone bringing a FW unit is wow cool, pleased to see something unusual.

 

I just wish GW would stop pretending FW is a separate entity and start including all the FW units in an armies codex to end this nonsense. 

On the last point, it is. Forge World is LEGALLY a wholly separate entity from Games Workshop. However, it's a wholly-owned subsidiary.... Which means that, even though legally its a separate entity, for everything else, it's not.

 

But yeah. Banning Forge World seems to be an holdover from when the units actually WERE broken. Now? Most of them are overcosted. Hell, look at the Marine Suprheavies after Chapter Approved. I'm sorry, a Falchion is NOT worth almost 1000 points. Especially a unit WITHOUT an Invulnerable save at all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GW developers are writing the rules now for Forgeworld. Based on my experience Forgeworld do not understand internal balance for 40k when they wrote the rules and didn’t know how to properly cost units. So you had some OP stuff that WAAC netlisters picked up on immediately to abuse. The less super heavies I see on the table the better.

[Gederas]

GW developers are writing the rules now for Forgeworld. Based on my experience Forgeworld do not understand internal balance for 40k when they wrote the rules and didn’t know how to properly cost units. So you had some OP stuff that WAAC netlisters picked up on immediately to abuse. The less super heavies I see on the table the better.

A slightly stronger Baneblade or Shadowsword is not worth double the points of either. But that's what GW decided was "balanced" for the Fellblade and Falchion.

 

And your last comment, so do you just not play people who use Knights?

[mughi3]

Wow it's 2002 again... I remember when GW tried to end this debate back with the release of IAII, right in the preface they said that FW models exist in the 40K universe and are meant to be played in games of 40K along with everything else. the only disclaimer was that bringing a superheavy or flyer the opponent should be notified before hand since they were so rare at the time.

 

I remember the opposed players were trying to argue that FW was not part of GW and also using many of the same-"not everybody has access, not every body knows the rules (even though you were required to have them)" etc... arguments because they somehow thought it was overpowered to bring a variant land raider and such.

 

The arguments were the typical ridiculous claims about "balance"

 

40K was never supposed to be truly balanced, GW did that to the hobby when they introduced sanctioned RTs and GTs in 3rd edition. making tourney balancing the big issue. the power creep was kept somewhat in check up to 6th edition by the force org chart but then blew out when they started using the formation supplements to violate core game rules culminating with 7th edition. 8th started out streamlining and simplifying things but they have now gone the same way via stratagems, traits and the like.

 

Funny thing is BFG is the only one that got it right-there isn't true balance each faction is stronger at certain things than others because it is based on in universe lore/fluff. using them to your advantage and out performing your opponent was more important than simply having the newest codex.

[Orange Knight]

I think that having more variety trumps any potential negative, especially as there are no balancing problems with FW units that destabilise the current meta. Some are sightly more efficient than generic codex options, many others are over-costed and under-powered.

None of these issues are causing any grief on the tabetop at this current point, beyond the over-costed units making their owners upset. The way some of the Fellblade variant tanks and Titans have been treated is a real shame that ultimately punished the most devout collectors.

 

I think cost might be the real reason some people are keen on banning FW, I'm afraid to say. I have seen some claiming that the high price gives players with more income an advantage. I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for this position in this particular hobby, especially as most FW users only have one or two units included in their armies at most.

 

I recently encountered a Squigoth and I really enjoyed seeing it on the table and playing against it.

[Halandaar]

I think cost might be the real reason some people are keen on banning FW, I'm afraid to say. I have seen some claiming that the high price gives players with more income an advantage. I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for this position in this particular hobby, especially as most FW users only have one or two units included in their armies at most.

 

Exactly. I cannot understand the logic that FW should be banned on the basis of price. The cornerstone model in a lot of successful armies over the last year or so has been the Knight Castellan, which is £100 and that's a mainline GW plastic product.

 

40k isn't a free-to-play game and any army requires a significant financial investment. At what point do you decide something is so expensive that it's unfairly advantageous to people with higher incomes? Do we ban Greater Daemons too? Or owning more than one army? How about playing on Realm of Battle boards, which are £200 a pop before terrain?

[mughi3]

beyond the over-costed units making their owners upset. The way some of the Fellblade variant tanks and Titans have been treated is a real shame that ultimately punished the most devout collectors.

Yeah at out FLGS we use the original alpha release 8th edition points cost for titans. justifying a warhound for 1.5K (double it's cost in all previous editions) is reasonable but it isn't worth putting on the table at 2k especially when we are using epic scale/titanicus scale.

 

 

40k isn't a free-to-play game and any army requires a significant financial investment.

LOL so true, the most expensive of all the miniature wargame systems only closely followed by flames of war.....started by former GW employee's so yeah. since the buy in is up to what about $500 for a decent 2k army now? infinity will run you about $120, DUST about the same, same with war machine if you don't buy to many big single items like colossals, classic battletech is probably the cheapest since you only need 4 miniatures (or 5 if your a clanner) to make a single army.

 

I think the point is if your willing to spent the cash and take the time to build it why shouldn't you be allowed to play with the minis sanctioned by the games maker. that kind of discussion devolves into the types of players people are and the setting they play in. everybody like a win, it is how much you want the win over having a good game that's telling. Don't be a jerk (we use another word I cannot say here)is one of our biggest rules at the local shop. played a game last week teaching a guy how to play 5th with the fantastic space wolf codex. he kicked by butt 8-0 in kill points and we had a great game.

Edited June 20, 2019 by mughi3

[Panzer]

I'm completely against FW bans. The times when FW stuff was considered too strong are long over for the most part and accessibilty in a time where almost everyone walks around with smartphones is no argument for me at all. You want it? Order it.

You are too young to have proper access to internet shops? You probably shouldn't spend your money on expensive GW/FW stuff without talking with your parents about it anyway.

FW stuff is too expensive for you to afford? Well better tell those horde army players to pack their stuff as well because those are really expensive compared to more elite armies too.

Edited June 20, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Robbienw]

Forgeworld bans are ridiculous.  Its like there is a small minority out there who hate and fear FW as something 'other' compared to the rest of GW, in a primitive superstitious way :lol: :lol:

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

I think cost might be the real reason some people are keen on banning FW, I'm afraid to say. I have seen some claiming that the high price gives players with more income an advantage. I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for this position in this particular hobby, especially as most FW users only have one or two units included in their armies at most.

Exactly. I cannot understand the logic that FW should be banned on the basis of price. The cornerstone model in a lot of successful armies over the last year or so has been the Knight Castellan, which is £100 and that's a mainline GW plastic product.

 

40k isn't a free-to-play game and any army requires a significant financial investment. At what point do you decide something is so expensive that it's unfairly advantageous to people with higher incomes? Do we ban Greater Daemons too? Or owning more than one army? How about playing on Realm of Battle boards, which are £200 a pop before terrain?

Definitely. Cost in cash terms is definitely not a justifiable reason for banning something because the unit does not offer anything in terms of better performance on the table. They could sell the models for £10,000 each and it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t give anyone an advantage provided the rules are in line with everything else. In short, it isn’t pay to win.

 

Banning something because one person can afford it in cash terms and another can’t is just petty jealousy. By that logic I’d have to ban any armies from being painted to a higher standard than I can personally reach (which would be 90% of the armies out there).

Edited June 20, 2019 by MARK0SIAN

[Toxichobbit]

As an ex-LGS owner, I'd say there's logic behind an LGS banning FW products - it makes sense in the same way that it makes sense that you can't wander into McDonalds with Burger King food and sit there and eat it. You're going into their LGS and using tables and terrain that has cost them money and time while playing with models that are purchsed elsewhere, indirectly advertising a product they don't sell and taking table space away from other customers. When you consider all of those negatives for an LGS, it's understandable why they wouldn't want people playing with FW models. While gamers might be of the opinion that they paid for the models so they should be able to use them, the flip side is that at an LGS you're playing with them at the store's convinience, so it's not completely up to you what you get to use. If you want unrestricted use of whatever models you want, then you need to be playing somewhere that you control, not on someone else's tables and terrain.

 

However, a blanket FW ban wouldn't be how I would go about it. Obviously you don't want people coming into the store and using your premises to play with their models if they don't support the LGS. An LGS is a business, not a public amenity after all. But most of the time the people using FW stuff will already be supporting the LGS in some way and even if they aren't, they are potential customers. So IMO there's ways to circumvent the negatives without penalising players using FW models. A compromise that allows the LGS to minimise the potential negative impact that FW models can have while still allowing people chance to play with all of their models is IMO, the best way forward.

[Karhedron]

1) The units aren’t Overpowered/undercosted (quite the opposite)

That is true for most but for a several editions, FW was often more powerful than that standard codex units.

 

The bans that exist are a hangover from another era and there is no reason they should still be in place.

Possibly true but people have long memories and old habits die hard.

 

I am not defending FW bans, I would love to get a few units like the larger SM Dreadnoughts. But my local gaming group still treats them as by opponent's consent by and large so there is just no point.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

1) The units aren’t Overpowered/undercosted (quite the opposite)

That is true for most but for a several editions, FW was often more powerful than that standard codex units.

 

The bans that exist are a hangover from another era and there is no reason they should still be in place.

Possibly true but people have long memories and old habits die hard.

 

I am not defending FW bans, I would love to get a few units like the larger SM Dreadnoughts. But my local gaming group still treats them as by opponent's consent by and large so there is just no point.

I know they’ve been overpowered in the past but that’s why I say it’s a hangover that needs to go.

 

Obviously I can’t speak for your gaming group but I would find it really weird if an opponent had an issue with me playing a Forgeworld model and would make me think that guy was being deliberately awkward/stubborn as they have no rational reason for the refusal.

 

The point about FLGS earlier is well made and that’s about the only reason I could accept for a ban but even then, if it was just one or two models I would still think it a bit miserly. After all, I’ll have other models in the army that were bought from the flgs and even the FW stuff would likely be painted and based with paints bought from the FLGS.

[Slips]

I'm mainly curious in seeing if there's a list or if anyone has made a list detailing which units were overpowered vs not during any given edition vis-a-vis the FW Catalogue. I say this mainly because I feel the OP units would probably end up being nowhere near as large a chunk of the FW catalogue as one might think.

[Stoic Raptor]

I don't really use any FW units currently (except maybe Issodon, and I might dip a toe into some of the Custodes goodness), but I've got one policy that's never changed:
If I can't play my army in your store, I'm not spending my money there, either.

 

GW retail store employees may need to be reminded that there is not much that can't be bought elsewhere, usually for less, or ordered from the web store for the same price.  Make me feel unwelcome, and I'll take my army (and my wallet) to somewhere that does.

 

They don't realize their purist mindset isn't helping them to grow.  I'd happily sit and paint in the store and maybe help teach new painters how to improve, but not if I have to follow some strict "Citadel only" policy on my tools and materials.  I don't know why GW feels threatened about that - if your product is worth the cost, I'm buying it, and if it isn't and I choose an alternative, that's money GW wasn't getting anyhow.  I can understand if they don't want people demonstrating something they can't buy, but I draw the line at having to use their crummy brushes and overpriced tools.

[Karhedron]

I know they’ve been overpowered in the past but that’s why I say it’s a hangover that needs to go.

 

Obviously I can’t speak for your gaming group but I would find it really weird if an opponent had an issue with me playing a Forgeworld model and would make me think that guy was being deliberately awkward/stubborn as they have no rational reason for the refusal.

And how would you go around changing everyone's mind? It's a catch 22 situation. My gaming club has a large contingent of veteran players, some of whom have been playing since 3rd edition (if not before). They have had bad experiences with FW before and so do not want players abusing it (as they see it). If they don't play FW, how can you force them to understand it is not (generally) so overpowered in 8th edition?

 

40K is a game and is supposed to be played for fun. You can't force people to play the game your way (unless you run your own tournaments). Getting people to accept Flyers and LOWs as part of standard 40K has been hard enough and they are units in a regular codex. FW is just a step too far for some people as it automatically makes them think you are "that guy".

Edited June 21, 2019 by Karhedron

[Sandlemad]

 

I know they’ve been overpowered in the past but that’s why I say it’s a hangover that needs to go.

 

Obviously I can’t speak for your gaming group but I would find it really weird if an opponent had an issue with me playing a Forgeworld model and would make me think that guy was being deliberately awkward/stubborn as they have no rational reason for the refusal.

And how would you go around changing everyone's mind? It's a catch 22 situation. My gaming club has a large contingent of veteran players, some of whom have been playing since 3rd edition (if not before). They have had bad experiences with FW before and so do not want players abusing it (as they see it). If they don't play FW, how can you force them to understand it is not (generally) so overpowered in 8th edition?

 

40K is a game and is supposed to be played for fun. You can't force people to play the game your way (unless you run your own tournaments). Getting people to accept Flyers and LOWs as part of standard 40K has been hard enough and they are units in a regular codex. FW is just a step too far for some people as it automatically makes them think you are "that guy".

 

 

Show them the rules? Presumably they have brains in their heads. If they are able to understand that (for example) Grey Knights were overpowered in 5th edition but are firmly not so now, and if they can move past that prejudice against GK players, then they can do the same for FW models. To do otherwise does indicate a certain deliberate 'grog-ness' and an obtuseness no different to someone who said 'sorry, I don't play against space wolf terminators and you can't make me'. They're perfectly within their rights not to but it's not the space wolf player who is 'That Guy' in this situatuation.

 

I'd also separate out FW stuff as a whole from flyers/LoW. I get the issue with the latter- it simply may not make the kind of game that they want - but there are plenty of fun and popular units from FW that are conventional tanks and walkers. That even before you get to folks who have an bizarre issue with FW models, even when they are identical ruleswise to existing citadel models.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

I know they’ve been overpowered in the past but that’s why I say it’s a hangover that needs to go.

 

Obviously I can’t speak for your gaming group but I would find it really weird if an opponent had an issue with me playing a Forgeworld model and would make me think that guy was being deliberately awkward/stubborn as they have no rational reason for the refusal.

And how would you go around changing everyone's mind? It's a catch 22 situation. My gaming club has a large contingent of veteran players, some of whom have been playing since 3rd edition (if not before). They have had bad experiences with FW before and so do not want players abusing it (as they see it). If they don't play FW, how can you force them to understand it is not (generally) so overpowered in 8th edition?

 

40K is a game and is supposed to be played for fun. You can't force people to play the game your way (unless you run your own tournaments). Getting people to accept Flyers and LOWs as part of standard 40K has been hard enough and they are units in a regular codex. FW is just a step too far for some people as it automatically makes them think you are "that guy".

Basically what SandleMad said above. Show them the rules, if they can’t make an objective choice based on that then it is just willingly staying in an old mindset. That’s a choice they’ve made and I would say it reflects poorly on them.

[Panzer]

 

I know they’ve been overpowered in the past but that’s why I say it’s a hangover that needs to go.

 

Obviously I can’t speak for your gaming group but I would find it really weird if an opponent had an issue with me playing a Forgeworld model and would make me think that guy was being deliberately awkward/stubborn as they have no rational reason for the refusal.

And how would you go around changing everyone's mind? It's a catch 22 situation. My gaming club has a large contingent of veteran players, some of whom have been playing since 3rd edition (if not before). They have had bad experiences with FW before and so do not want players abusing it (as they see it). If they don't play FW, how can you force them to understand it is not (generally) so overpowered in 8th edition?

 

40K is a game and is supposed to be played for fun. You can't force people to play the game your way (unless you run your own tournaments). Getting people to accept Flyers and LOWs as part of standard 40K has been hard enough and they are units in a regular codex. FW is just a step too far for some people as it automatically makes them think you are "that guy".

 

 

Talking usually works. Also showing the datasheets and point costs.