Forge World Bans

[Trevak Dal]

Man I'll fight anything. I'm probably going to lose to Custard Bois on bikes, but if my World Eaters can get one good charge in I'm satisfied.

[RandomMarine]

My local gw store allows FW for pick up games on the late night opening day which has a older customer base with more disposable income,and FW is allowed with prior agreement for the rest of the week, with the previous manager it was a flat ban and since the new management and change of policy I'd say there is maybe a 5-10 or so people who never used play there and the manager says the difference in sales from it has been noticed at a area level

[Schlitzaf]

My local gw store allows FW for pick up games on the late night opening day which has a older customer base with more disposable income,and FW is allowed with prior agreement for the rest of the week, with the previous manager it was a flat ban and since the new management and change of policy I'd say there is maybe a 5-10 or so people who never used play there and the manager says the difference in sales from it has been noticed at a area level

I assume upwards direction?

[Stoic Raptor]

If FW becomes popular, then it's money lost for the store that they can do very little about.

 

Respectfully, that's a fallacy I need to address.  If I'm buying something from FW, that's not money I would have spent in your store anyhow.  I'm not going to say "I can't get a Leviathan here, I guess I'll buy some other Marine stuff instead."  If I need a Leviathan, I'll buy it.  If I need some Marine models too, I'll buy those as well.  

 

If your argument is that some players have to chose either/or?  I want to remind you that the customers with the limited incomes are not the ones that merchants should be most concerned about retaining.  Worry about the guys like me who can buy the FW stuff they need, and still come into your store to play and shop for all the other stuff they want to buy.

 

If I feel like I can only play with stuff I bought at a particular store, why would I want to want to spend more money there?  You say that people will buy from wherever is the cheapest, but the fact is, when people can buy stuff on eBay for less than an FLGS can afford to sell it for, there's a reason why people still come into the store to shop and play.  That's because they feel welcome, they feel like they're more than just a wallet.  I remind people to support their FLGS because we can't play on eBay... but if I can't play my army in the store either, why would I want to continue to support it?

 

When people come to a store to play, it's inevitable that they'll spend some money there.  Maybe not always, but often.  If a player's not in the store because they can't play their army there, they're somewhere else, spending their time and  money.  

 

Forge World has been around for a long time and it hasn't been the death of any FLGS yet, and it sure hasn't harmed GW's retail sales.  To me, this is a tempest in a teapot, but stores considering this sort of policy should think carefully about which segment of their customer base it will exclude.

[RandomMarine]

 

My local gw store allows FW for pick up games on the late night opening day which has a older customer base with more disposable income,and FW is allowed with prior agreement for the rest of the week, with the previous manager it was a flat ban and since the new management and change of policy I'd say there is maybe a 5-10 or so people who never used play there and the manager says the difference in sales from it has been noticed at a area level

I assume upwards direction?

Yeah his area manager

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

My local gw store allows FW for pick up games on the late night opening day which has a older customer base with more disposable income,and FW is allowed with prior agreement for the rest of the week, with the previous manager it was a flat ban and since the new management and change of policy I'd say there is maybe a 5-10 or so people who never used play there and the manager says the difference in sales from it has been noticed at a area level

I assume upwards direction?

Yeah his area manager

I think he means have the number of sales gone in an upwards direction which it sounds like they have :)

[Servant of Dante]

I play almost exclusively Sisters of Battle, which, as of now, are all webstore exclusives. Meaning they aren't stocked in any FLGS. So if a store isn't allowing Forge World because they aren't stocked in store, my army is even worse than that since FW units supplement armies they can stock, whereas mine is a self contained model range that they don't stock. However, I still spent a few dollars here and there on snack food and dice or objective cards or whatever at that store while I played there. I don't know what the economics of it would look like really, but I would go out of my way to not spend money at a store that wouldn't let me play the faction I like because they're FW (like Kreig IG) or a Webstore exclusive (It's not like 40k is the only reason I'd want to spend money at a FLGS).

 

As for rules, as far as I know the FW units that are truly OP are few and far between. There are plenty of powerful units in GW armies in this game, so I see no reason to ban forgeworld outright unless you're banning whatever faction has the most OP netlist at the moment as well.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Servant of Dante

[CaptainMarsh]

 

Initial post edited for brevity so I don't make a quote wall

 

A good post that I disagree with and am editing purely for the sake of brevity, to prevent a quote wall

 

 

To respond to the slight tangent at the start: People will absolutely buy from wherever is cheapest, agreed. Forge World is far less a threat here, outrageously so, than online retailers who offer discounts of some variety on GW mainline products. That has guaranteed had a far bigger impact on my store's bottom line than FW has ever, or will ever have.

 

Onto the main thrust, I have three points.

1- If someone wants a Leviathan, they are going to buy a Leviathan. They aren't going to stop because my single store says no, They aren't going to spend that money on something else that they didn't really want- after all, they have the money and had the access before and didn't- instead. The money not spent on FW is unlikely to translate to additional money for me.

 

2- The infection analogy is pretty good, but not borne out in my experience. 

 

3- The killer is this: Unless you are the only store in the area or all stores enact the ban or have other schemes in place, all you're doing is cutting off your nose to spite your face because players who buy FW are deep hobbyists who are unlikely to be afraid to take their hobby business elsewhere, a place where they feel appreciated. From experience I know a half dozen customers of my store who are migrants from other local stores who enacted FW bans or tried other tactics, who left specifically because of them. The other stores lost 100% of their business and I gained a five-digit total annually, as well as a few good friends I wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

Another store tried an idea where you pay for tables and use of terrain unless you joined a membership if you played FW (other elements were involved, but from the 40k side it was FW). Interesting concept, and the membership had other benefits IIRC, but tell the DKoK player he needs to pay additional fees to play when he can play for free in another location. Another location banned them in either tournaments or pick up play games and not the other- been a while, I don't remember the specifics. Didn't work either. 

 

Any idea a store can generate to compensate for the potential theoretical loss of money spent on FW is more likely to bite them in the buttocks if there is a store in the area that doesn't do anything but say, “come on in!” when FW models are brought up.

Edited June 23, 2019 by CaptainMarsh

[Panzer]

I know enough people who stopped going to specific stores because of various reasons, including not being allowed to use specific things, and I also know enough stores who didn't care at all about people not coming to their store anymore because others came instead. Voting with your wallet/presence doesn't always work out unfortunately. If there's enough replacement the value the individual person represents for a store is rather small.

That doesn't mean one should just suck it up and do nothing about it but one should also not expect to change the world with passive actions like that.

On the other hand I also know stores which practically died over night because they pulled stupid :cuss and people decided to go elsewhere instead, even if that means to just meet in private. Sucks for the local community when that happens though since at that point there's barely any growth anymore which is pretty much the only reason why GW keeps their brick and mortar stores.

[Lord Raven 19]

It's like castellans, if they've put the time into building and painting it, at least respect that and let them use it. 

On the subject of FLGS, at least you have one that you can reach without external help, that doesnt like Warhammer, being required. I asked in the big community survey to have one in my town, I hope I get one.

[Stoic Raptor]

I also know enough stores who didn't care at all about people not coming to their store anymore because others came instead. Voting with your wallet/presence doesn't always work out unfortunately. If there's enough replacement the value the individual person represents for a store is rather small.

On the other hand I also know stores which practically died over night because they pulled stupid and people decided to go elsewhere instead, even if that means to just meet in private. Sucks for the local community when that happens though since at that point there's barely any growth anymore which is pretty much the only reason why GW keeps their brick and mortar stores.

 

Those two things are kind of contradictory, but I'm more inclined to agree with the latter.  The mindset of "if you don't shop here, someone else will" is never a good business philosophy, for two easily apparent reasons: 1) If that were true, they'd already be doing so; and 2) if they come and I go, you're still making less of an income than if they come and I stay.

 

A business that doesn't care about driving its customers to the competition is a business that folds sooner or later.  Even in a booming gaming community and market (perhaps especially so), a store needs to draw people in, not push them away.  You might not agree, but voting with your wallet is all that matters in a free-market economy.

[kombatwombat]

 

 

If FW becomes popular, then it's money lost for the store that they can do very little about.

Respectfully, that's a fallacy I need to address. If I'm buying something from FW, that's not money I would have spent in your store anyhow. I'm not going to say "I can't get a Leviathan here, I guess I'll buy some other Marine stuff instead." If I need a Leviathan, I'll buy it. If I need some Marine models too, I'll buy those as well.

As much as it pains me to admit that there is a very limited edge case where a FW ban might be justifiable, I think you’re missing the point here. You and I are not the people Toxichobbit is referring to here - we are experienced hobbyists that routinely buy from FW. Toxichobbit’s point is on naive new or new-ish players. You play a pick up game against a new kid that’s been in the hobby 3 months, you plonk down your Leviathan and the kid goes wow, that’s cool! You introduce them to the concept of FW, and suddenly that kid isn’t buying a Stormraven at the FLGS, they’re going home and spending that money on a Leviathan online instead.

 

Eventually everybody in the hobby discovers FW, but there is a small window in people’s hobby journey where they might take money they’d spend in store and go to FW for the first time instead. That’s a loss for the FLGS owner, but for the small number of these edge cases a FW ban would stop, they’re losing more business by banning FW.

Edited June 24, 2019 by kombatwombat

[Panzer]

 

I also know enough stores who didn't care at all about people not coming to their store anymore because others came instead. Voting with your wallet/presence doesn't always work out unfortunately. If there's enough replacement the value the individual person represents for a store is rather small.

On the other hand I also know stores which practically died over night because they pulled stupid and people decided to go elsewhere instead, even if that means to just meet in private. Sucks for the local community when that happens though since at that point there's barely any growth anymore which is pretty much the only reason why GW keeps their brick and mortar stores.

 

Those two things are kind of contradictory, but I'm more inclined to agree with the latter.  The mindset of "if you don't shop here, someone else will" is never a good business philosophy, for two easily apparent reasons: 1) If that were true, they'd already be doing so; and 2) if they come and I go, you're still making less of an income than if they come and I stay.

 

A business that doesn't care about driving its customers to the competition is a business that folds sooner or later.  Even in a booming gaming community and market (perhaps especially so), a store needs to draw people in, not push them away.  You might not agree, but voting with your wallet is all that matters in a free-market economy.

 

 

They aren't contradictory. Just two different ways of how things can go depending on a bunch of different factors.

I also didn't try to say that it's a good thing to do for the shop. Just stating my experience and that simply not going there might not even be noticed by the shop so you shouldn't expect to have any impact of how the manager does things.

[Malios]

I've got two gaming stores locally, one of which is a brick and mortar store and the other a FLGS.

 

The local GW has a pretty flexible manager and his stance with forge world is a compromise between balancing business practices with encouraging the hobby: you can't play horus heresy games, but forge world minis are allowed in 40k and AoS with consent outside of official "codex options only" events. This seems to work well and those it discriminates against (ie the Heresy players) didn't game outside of their niche group anyway. Not that there's any room on the timetable to fit in heresy anyway as every day has a different gaming system.

 

As for the FLGS, you could play a heresy game in there and they wouldn't really care: it would almost be a novelty because people don't play GW games there. Tabletop card gaming and X-Wing keep that store in the green: tabletop wargaming is the periodic icing on the cake that they sell and are happy to cater for as a side thing.

 

[Edit]

 

The secondary threat of Forge World, particularly in Australia, is recasters. Because Forge World's pricing is ludicrous and the demand is there, the Chinese are happy to provide. Often at 30% of the original price. To quote Fate: Stay Night's "there's no law that says the copy can't be better then the original," some of the stuff the recasters are pumping out are better quality then the original. At 30% of the UK price, you can't blame people for being enticed.

 

So the threat of allowing Forge World in stores is two fold: firstly it detracts from sales locally (but as discussed not by much) and even moreso if people are buying recasted armies. The blame for this however is not on the managers of the stores, but GW's business practices in general: the demand is there, but people are seeking the hobby blackmarket (ie recasters) because the prices are too high.

 

The same can be said of GW paints for their business practices. $6 - $9 for a 12ml pot of GW paint vs $5 for a 17ml dropper bottle of Vallejo or Army painter. $11.50 for a contrast paint vs $6 for a Vallejo or Scale 75 equivalent. $45 for an artificer brush when Army Painter sells the same for $15 with a triangular grip. The other companies are all price matched to some extent, but GW continues to charge as they wish because people still buy them.

 

As what happened to EA Games with their DLC and poorly released games, I think GW need a harsh defibrillating jolt to realise that their business practices are the cause of these issues. That defibrillating jolt unfortunately is going to come from voting with your wallet.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Malios

[Xwingt65]

GW price their hobby supplies and paints for convenience. They know many either don’t have access to a flgs, want to wait weeks for a online order, or just are lazy. And you have to remember that FW is a tiny, tiny portion of the total GW sales.

[Toxichobbit]

 

To respond to the slight tangent at the start: People will absolutely buy from wherever is cheapest, agreed. Forge World is far less a threat here, outrageously so, than online retailers who offer discounts of some variety on GW mainline products. That has guaranteed had a far bigger impact on my store's bottom line than FW has ever, or will ever have.

 

Onto the main thrust, I have three points.

1- If someone wants a Leviathan, they are going to buy a Leviathan. They aren't going to stop because my single store says no, They aren't going to spend that money on something else that they didn't really want- after all, they have the money and had the access before and didn't- instead. The money not spent on FW is unlikely to translate to additional money for me.

 

2- The infection analogy is pretty good, but not borne out in my experience. 

 

3- The killer is this: Unless you are the only store in the area or all stores enact the ban or have other schemes in place, all you're doing is cutting off your nose to spite your face because players who buy FW are deep hobbyists who are unlikely to be afraid to take their hobby business elsewhere, a place where they feel appreciated. From experience I know a half dozen customers of my store who are migrants from other local stores who enacted FW bans or tried other tactics, who left specifically because of them. The other stores lost 100% of their business and I gained a five-digit total annually, as well as a few good friends I wouldn't have had otherwise.

 

Another store tried an idea where you pay for tables and use of terrain unless you joined a membership if you played FW (other elements were involved, but from the 40k side it was FW). Interesting concept, and the membership had other benefits IIRC, but tell the DKoK player he needs to pay additional fees to play when he can play for free in another location. Another location banned them in either tournaments or pick up play games and not the other- been a while, I don't remember the specifics. Didn't work either. 

 

Any idea a store can generate to compensate for the potential theoretical loss of money spent on FW is more likely to bite them in the buttocks if there is a store in the area that doesn't do anything but say, “come on in!” when FW models are brought up.

 

 

I don't disagree with anything you say really. It's why I've said right from the start that I don't agree with FW bans. That said, soft bans like the ones you mention, can work. But it really depends on the situation - there's always nuance and shades of grey. What didn't work in your situation might work in others. I've known LGS's successfully implement a soft ban and suffer zero loss of player retention or sales. In fact, in some cases it's increased sales of GW products (albeit those are rare and very dedicated players).

 

Also, multiple LGS clustered in one area isn't always the case, so some owners can be a bit harsher without having to worry about competition. It really all depends on the specific situation.

 

I do firmly believe though that in most cases, an LGS can take steps to reduce the effects of FW without causing negative effects to their playerbase/customers or banning anything. What worked for me was being very active in the community. To the players at my store, I was a gamer first, a store owner second. That meant I had their trust and could, to a degree, direct what was played at my store. That sounds manipulative and I guess on some level, it was. But the thing is that in my case, I knew my players. They were (mostly) my friends and I knew what they enjoyed. I also knew what I enjoyed. So while I did stock plenty of stuff I didn't really play or enjoy (mainly CCGs and RPGs), when it came to miniatures I was quite choosy about the games I supported. Essentially I tended to support games that I knew both me and a decent number of the store's playerbase would enjoy. If I was enthusiastic about it, then most of the store's playerbase would also be enthusiastic about it and the game tended to sell itself.

 

There were always some players who just weren't into certain games, but that was cool as well. I still made sure to support them. I may have been really into 40k at the time, or maybe Warmachine, or maybe Flames of War. But I still had the passion for other games and I made sure that when I interacted with hobbyists who weren't into my current gaming crush, I didn't dismiss them and I was still enthusiastic about other games that I wasn't actively playing at the time. I never had to ban any game or model range, including FW and to be honest, I think the person who had and used the most FW models was me.

 

Now this is all just my experience. It won't apply to everyone. So in more general terms, I feel that all LGS owners have tools at their disposal that they can use to influence what's played at their store and their revenue stream. Diversity of products, support of game systems, involvement and influence of the community, advertising and many more techniques can be used to reduce the potential impact FW may have so that it becomes a non-issue without having to resort to bans.

[Marshal Rohr]

Are FLGS actually competition for GW? The ones that offer discounts?

[Panzer]

Are FLGS actually competition for GW? The ones that offer discounts?

 

Depends. They earn more money from what the FLGS sell compared to what their own stores sell even with the huge discounts FLGS offer because they don't have to pay for rent and salaries and such for the FLGS. Their own stores are mainly there as form of advertisement so people know Warhammer is still a thing and to have a place where new people and parents etc can go to (it's easier to recognize Warhammer stores if you want to buy Warhammer products than the random FLGS in some backstreet who might have a shelf with Warhammer products hidden somewhere).

[MARK0SIAN]

Are FLGS actually competition for GW? The ones that offer discounts?

I might be remembering it wrong but I think GW actually make more profit from FLGS than their own stores because they don’t have the overheads. I think that was in their annual report last year.

[Toxichobbit]

Are FLGS actually competition for GW? The ones that offer discounts?

 

They can be, but it's situational. I had a good relationship with my local GW which was just down the road from my store, so we weren't really in competition as much as in collaboration, even though we had a (limited) overlap of stock.

 

In other places though, I've heard of some quite fierce competion that even goes so far as bad-mouthing the other store to customers. But that's not just an LGS/GW rivalry, it happens between different LGS as well. I guess it depends on the area, the size of the customer pool, how much stock overlap there is and of course, the personalities of the staff involved.

[Bat33.1]

GW developers are writing the rules now for Forgeworld. Based on my experience Forgeworld do not understand internal balance for 40k when they wrote the rules and didn’t know how to properly cost units. So you had some OP stuff that WAAC netlisters picked up on immediately to abuse. The less super heavies I see on the table the better.

 

FW had about 6 weeks to write all their 8th edition index rules with no play test time so it's hardly surprising some units were not pointed correctly when 8th launched - looking at you Super Chicken before your points doubled.

 

It's not like every GW codex unit is pointed appropriately now is it?

 

As for the OP's comment about stores banning GW direct items that would make many 40k armies unplayable, just dumb. How do you play Apoc when Baneblade is direct only, same for Stompa, BA baal pred direct only, Godhammer LR the same in the UK. There are an awful lot of kits not shown as direct only on the website that are not now shelf stock in GW stores.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

FW was a complete mess at the start of this edition thank the Emperor they don’t write the rules any longer. GW is doing a great job with now that they have taken the reins. I love what they did for Custodes.

[Stoic Raptor]

Toxichobbit’s point is on naive new or new-ish players. You play a pick up game against a new kid that’s been in the hobby 3 months, you plonk down your Leviathan and the kid goes wow, that’s cool! You introduce them to the concept of FW, and suddenly that kid isn’t buying a Stormraven at the FLGS, they’re going home and spending that money on a Leviathan online instead.

 

Seems like an unlikely scenario - if the new kid is still at the point where he might be spending his money on mdels in-store, he's unlikely to be at a point where FW models are a viable option - either in terms of completion or affordability.    Given the choice, most new players who need to decide between another unit of troops or a fancy resin model are going to go with the former.

 

As for myself, I'm not the sort who's going to drop a power model on the table against a new kid.  I'm honestly not so fond of playing against them myself, as I feel that they skew armies away from infantry-oriented towards "what do I have to take to face the super-heavy".

 

But again, if you have to worry about losing a sale, are you really going to worry about the new kid who can't afford a box of troops and a Leviathan, or are you going to alienate the guy who's spending thousands of dollars a year in your store and still gets FW models he fancies?  

simply not going there might not even be noticed by the shop so you shouldn't expect to have any impact of how the manager does things.

 

 

I'm sure most small businesses will notice a few thousand less on the bottom line - but even if they don't, the point is I don't care.  A store that's going to make me feel unwelcome can fold next week for all I care, if I'm not going back.  Even if they do just fine without me, any sensible business owner would admit that they're better off with the extra profits.  The idea that "if you don't shop here, someone else will" ignores the truth that they either already do, or they're not going to.  

 

But there are plenty of sensible store owners (my FLGS included) that realize people in your store are going to spend money in your store, that repeat business is the best kind and that word of mouth is the most effective advertising for a small business.  If you sacrifice the experienced players in favor of the new guy, who's the new guy going to play against anyhow?

 

What it really sounds like to me is: "If I can't have all of your hobby money, shop elsewhere", in which case I'm glad to.  No business ever became more successful by implementing policies that alienate regular customers.

[frostbite]

 

Are FLGS actually competition for GW? The ones that offer discounts?

 

Depends. They earn more money from what the FLGS sell compared to what their own stores sell even with the huge discounts FLGS offer because they don't have to pay for rent and salaries and such for the FLGS. Their own stores are mainly there as form of advertisement so people know Warhammer is still a thing and to have a place where new people and parents etc can go to (it's easier to recognize Warhammer stores if you want to buy Warhammer products than the random FLGS in some backstreet who might have a shelf with Warhammer products hidden somewhere).

 

I think this depends on where in the world you are. I'd be very, very surprised if GW are making more from FLGSs in the UK than their own stores.

Edited June 24, 2019 by frostbite

[Stoic Raptor]

Sure, they have to spend more on overhead and staff, but those are expenses for any FLGS owner as well.

GW has the advantage of much higher profit margins selling direct.  Consider what an FLGS pays wholesale, and then realize that's the price from the distributor, who's also getting their cut.

 

So take a $50 MSRP model.  The FLGS might pay $30 (at most) for it, and might sell it for $45.  The distributor probably buys it at $20.  

When GW sells it in their own store, there's a $30 profit on a $50 model.  That's huge in comparison to a local small business.  The only reason GW earns more off FLGs is because there are a lot more of them.  There are slightly more than 500 GW stores worldwide and tens of thousands of independent stockists.