Forge World Bans

[Volt]

I'd ban soup or GW LOW's before I'd even think of refusing a game against a Warhound titan lol. Somebody needs their brain checked if they think Titans especially are remotely competitive as even the fluffiest of fluff bunny lists should have the means to erase a Titan in 3 turns. I tried using a Chaos Warhound Titan in one game on TTS for fun as Death Guard against a foreign friend - it ended up with the Warhound failing to kill an MSU squad of cultists and getting degraded by Obliterators to the point he didn't even bother to kill it (that and because I had two Nurgle Daemon Princes for HQ's that were ripping up his lines).

 

I mean there's some FW units that are decent like Mortis Contemptors or that one Eldar flyer with built-in bright lances, but they aren't godlike units. They're average to good, but not completely superior to GW options. Just look at what a farce the Custodes terminators are compared to the Allarus ones for example.

[Slasher956]

Hang on...if people are talking about banning FW due to cost.......well I've  2.5K of pure Sisters of battle! so that should be banned first because most people cant afford one

[Halandaar]

As an ex-LGS owner, I'd say there's logic behind an LGS banning FW products - it makes sense in the same way that it makes sense that you can't wander into McDonalds with Burger King food and sit there and eat it. You're going into their LGS and using tables and terrain that has cost them money and time while playing with models that are purchsed elsewhere, indirectly advertising a product they don't sell and taking table space away from other customers. When you consider all of those negatives for an LGS, it's understandable why they wouldn't want people playing with FW models. While gamers might be of the opinion that they paid for the models so they should be able to use them, the flip side is that at an LGS you're playing with them at the store's convinience, so it's not completely up to you what you get to use. If you want unrestricted use of whatever models you want, then you need to be playing somewhere that you control, not on someone else's tables and terrain.

 

Right; for clarity, I only think FW bans are outright stupid in GW stores. What a LGS does and doesn't allow is absolutely their prerogative and there are definitely more considerations there, although i still think banning FW is likely to be counterproductive (as you mentioned).

 

GW retail store employees may need to be reminded that there is not much that can't be bought elsewhere, usually for less, or ordered from the web store for the same price.  Make me feel unwelcome, and I'll take my army (and my wallet) to somewhere that does.

 

Very much this; buying from a GW store is the most expensive way to obtain GW product; they don't need to make it even easier for us to take our money elsewhere by setting arbitrary rules on what can and can't be used in the store.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

GW developers are writing the rules now for Forgeworld. Based on my experience Forgeworld do not understand internal balance for 40k when they wrote the rules and didn’t know how to properly cost units. So you had some OP stuff that WAAC netlisters picked up on immediately to abuse. The less super heavies I see on the table the better.

 

A slightly stronger Baneblade or Shadowsword is not worth double the points of either. But that's what GW decided was "balanced" for the Fellblade and Falchion.

 

And your last comment, so do you just not play people who use Knights?

I don’t have much problems versus Knights.

[Gederas]

GW developers are writing the rules now for Forgeworld. Based on my experience Forgeworld do not understand internal balance for 40k when they wrote the rules and didn’t know how to properly cost units. So you had some OP stuff that WAAC netlisters picked up on immediately to abuse. The less super heavies I see on the table the better.

A slightly stronger Baneblade or Shadowsword is not worth double the points of either. But that's what GW decided was "balanced" for the Fellblade and Falchion.

 

And your last comment, so do you just not play people who use Knights?

I don’t have much problems versus Knights.

"The less super heavies I see on the table the better."

 

Those were your exact words. Knights are a Super Heavy.

 

And NOTHING in the Marines list from Forge World is overpowered. Middle of the road to better than average, yes. But overpowered? Oh please.

 

All of the Lord of War points increases that GW did to the Forge World units are utterly ridiculous.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No they are not. Stop trying to move the goal post duder . :D

[Panzer]

They are though. They are Lord of Wars with the Titanic keyword. Those are the only two criteria we have to classify something as a super heavy.

[CaptainMarsh]

I welcome all other FLGS in my area to ban FW so players with money to burn can come to my store.

Honestly, as someone who works at a FLGS, I never agreed with the idea that one should ban FW because we don't stock it. The mindset behind it is that the money spent on FW doesn't support the store so why would we allow it? While that makes sense on its head but if you dig any deeper it doesn't  make any sense. FW units for 40k are linked to GW units for 40k. The person who buys FW is going to buy GW, and if he buys FW, that means he has money to spend on the hobby. The dude who buys FW is also the guy who is going to buy all of Citadel's overpriced tools and drop hundreds of dollars on new armies and/or models for existing armies the day of pre-orders. 

When I think of my store's biggest 40k customers, there is a 1:1 correlation between them owning Forge World and them buying a ton of GW.

Beyond the financial, I've always disliked the base concept of "if you don't support us, then get out!"
I get it, I absolutely do. 
But if people are coming to your store and they don't end up supporting it, that is on you. If someone manages to hobby in your store, and that is a hobby your store participates in, and they don't spend money on it at your store, look at yourself. Is your customer service trash? Is your store smelly and bad? Are they finished getting everything they needed for it? Etc.
To bring this back to FW: If someone brings in FW units, plays at your store, and doesn't end up over time becoming a customer of your store, then realize it has nothing to do with FW. It might be any number of other causes but you were never going to get the $$$ earmarked for FW. 

[MegaVolt87]

I welcome all other FLGS in my area to ban FW so players with money to burn can come to my store.

Honestly, as someone who works at a FLGS, I never agreed with the idea that one should ban FW because we don't stock it. The mindset behind it is that the money spent on FW doesn't support the store so why would we allow it? While that makes sense on its head but if you dig any deeper it doesn't  make any sense. FW units for 40k are linked to GW units for 40k. The person who buys FW is going to buy GW, and if he buys FW, that means he has money to spend on the hobby. The dude who buys FW is also the guy who is going to buy all of Citadel's overpriced tools and drop hundreds of dollars on new armies and/or models for existing armies the day of pre-orders. 

When I think of my store's biggest 40k customers, there is a 1:1 correlation between them owning Forge World and them buying a ton of GW.

Beyond the financial, I've always disliked the base concept of "if you don't support us, then get out!"

I get it, I absolutely do. 

But if people are coming to your store and they don't end up supporting it, that is on you. If someone manages to hobby in your store, and that is a hobby your store participates in, and they don't spend money on it at your store, look at yourself. Is your customer service trash? Is your store smelly and bad? Are they finished getting everything they needed for it? Etc.

To bring this back to FW: If someone brings in FW units, plays at your store, and doesn't end up over time becoming a customer of your store, then realize it has nothing to do with FW. It might be any number of other causes but you were never going to get the $$$ earmarked for FW.

 

This guy gets it. If your store was near me in OZ you would get my businesses. Even if I am not getting a lot of GW stuff, I probably would get stuff from other systems etc if I used your tables often. Advantage of an LGS they can sell other stuff to FW owners. GW can have our business too- just let us use FW in store.

[PeteySödes]

=][= Take a breath, bickering is going to get the topic locked. =][=

[Panzer]

Alright, more a more civil and less condescending tone then (I'll try at least).

 

 

No there not as in the points increase.

 

Could you please reword that since I have absolutely no clue what you are even trying to say the way you phrased that (even when assuming you mean "they're" and not "there").

[Gederas]

I welcome all other FLGS in my area to ban FW so players with money to burn can come to my store.

Honestly, as someone who works at a FLGS, I never agreed with the idea that one should ban FW because we don't stock it. The mindset behind it is that the money spent on FW doesn't support the store so why would we allow it? While that makes sense on its head but if you dig any deeper it doesn't  make any sense. FW units for 40k are linked to GW units for 40k. The person who buys FW is going to buy GW, and if he buys FW, that means he has money to spend on the hobby. The dude who buys FW is also the guy who is going to buy all of Citadel's overpriced tools and drop hundreds of dollars on new armies and/or models for existing armies the day of pre-orders. 

When I think of my store's biggest 40k customers, there is a 1:1 correlation between them owning Forge World and them buying a ton of GW.

Beyond the financial, I've always disliked the base concept of "if you don't support us, then get out!"

I get it, I absolutely do. 

But if people are coming to your store and they don't end up supporting it, that is on you. If someone manages to hobby in your store, and that is a hobby your store participates in, and they don't spend money on it at your store, look at yourself. Is your customer service trash? Is your store smelly and bad? Are they finished getting everything they needed for it? Etc.

To bring this back to FW: If someone brings in FW units, plays at your store, and doesn't end up over time becoming a customer of your store, then realize it has nothing to do with FW. It might be any number of other causes but you were never going to get the $$$ earmarked for FW.

This guy gets it. If your store was near me in OZ you would get my businesses. Even if I am not getting a lot of GW stuff, I probably would get stuff from other systems etc if I used your tables often. Advantage of an LGS they can sell other stuff to FW owners. GW can have our business too- just let us use FW in store.

Agreed on this. My FLGS has no problem with FW models, especially as since the last couple tournaments have had several in them (Eldar, Tyrannids and Imperial Guard). There's some problems with my FLGS that causes me to not spend as much money as I'd want to there, but it has nothing to do with the store's Forge World policy.

 

Alright, more a more civil and less condescending tone then (I'll try at least).

No there not as in the points increase.

Could you please reword that since I have absolutely no clue what you are even trying to say the way you phrased that (even when assuming you mean "they're" and not "there").

Let me try and translate the terribad English: He's saying that the points increase of the Space Marine Lord of War units aren't ridiculous and justified.

 

Which, again, doesn't make sense as if they were, that means the IMPERIAL GUARD Baneblade Family should have went up, as well as the FW Imperial Guard superheavies. From what I saw, a bunch of them went DOWN in points.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The Fire Raptor was ridiculously undercosted before they jacked the points.

[Gederas]

The Fire Raptor was ridiculously undercosted before they jacked the points.

Oh the irony:

No they are not. Stop trying to move the goal post duder .

You tell people to stop moving goal posts, and then do that by bringing up a non-Lord of War when discussing Lords of War

 

If you notice, no one has brought up anything but the Marine Lords of War in regards to the points being crazy, so YOU'RE the one who keeps moving the Goal Posts mate. The fact is, the Fellblade and Falchion are NOT worth nearly 1k points each. The Thunderhawk is almost 1500 points by itself, the Stormbird is 2000 points. All of the Marine Lords of War were jacked up ridiculously by Chapter Approved, hell EVERY SINGLE Lord of War unit from Forge World (barring the Imperial Guard ones) were jacked up to unplayable point levels in anything but Apocalypse.

 

This will be my last post on this matter.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Take a chill pill and calm yer self down. Even though the Fire Raptor is not a LoW it is an excellent example of how FW jumps the shark. I find it amusing you have some difficulty accepting others have different opinion than yours.

[Oxydo]

The Fire Raptor was ridiculously undercosted before they jacked the points.

 

One example does not make a case.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

The Fire Raptor was ridiculously undercosted before they jacked the points.

One example does not make a case.

This; also how many folks read my OP? FW Units only seem fowl when they, are price out of line with comparable units (Malefic Pyskers). While there are similar OP Style units for armies internally (Leviathan Dreadnoughts), you rarely hear complaints for the latter. Because they are not pointed or rules wise egregiously out of line with what you would expect from a Warhammer 40,000 unit of its type.

 

An Astartes Baneblade you are expected to pay around 20%-30% premium compared to an AM Baneblade. Not nearly double for a damage output increase of only 33% (or 25% depending how you see it).

[Orange Knight]

I think we can all agree that there were a few exceptions of very powerful FW units at the very start of 8th edition before every faction had a codex.

 

Would a Fire Raptor with it's original point cost be over-powered right now, after the Eldar books have been dominating with their flyers since release? The answer is no.

 

At the moment everything is updated regularly so there really isn't a reason to worry about broken rules, no matter if they come from FW or Games Workshop. The fact remains that none of the FW options are damaging the game. As I said, some are competitive or slightly more efficient than certain codex options but most are over-priced and ineffective.

 

More variety is not a bad thing. FW provide additional options for most factions and enrich the hobby.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s a great example so don’t try to brush it under the carpet. You should not just hand over the farm. FW had many abused units at the start of eighth such as Malefic Lords and Thunder Chicken.

 

“Would a Fire Raptor with it's original point cost be over-powered right now, after the Eldar books have been dominating with their flyers since release? The answer is no.“

 

What is your basis ?

[Trevak Dal]

I mean...leviathans and Contemptor dreads are very, very nasty, especially compared to vanilla boxnaughts and helbrutes.

[Panzer]

And still not nasty enough to be seen on top tables in tournaments.

[Trevak Dal]

I think forgeworld stuff tends to fuel the "arms race" for stuff, and can contribute to an already bloaty game.

[MARK0SIAN]

I mean...leviathans and Contemptor dreads are very, very nasty, especially compared to vanilla boxnaughts and helbrutes.

This is true but they’re appropriately costed in terms of points. Personally I don’t have an issue with things being nasty so long as they’ve got some drawbacks and/or are appropriately costed. I think in this regard, FW has actually done a better overall job than GW this edition with some of the stuff GW has put out there.

 

FW has fuelled arms races in the past but again, I don’t think that’s true this edition. If it was, the top tables at tournaments would be cluttered with FW models and (as SfPanzer points out) they’re just not.

 

My main argument throughout this whole thread is largely that we must judge FW by what they are doing this edition, too many of the arguments against them are based on previous editions. Based solely on this edition, IMO, FW bans don’t make any sense and are not justifiable.

[Toxichobbit]

I welcome all other FLGS in my area to ban FW so players with money to burn can come to my store.

 

Honestly, as someone who works at a FLGS, I never agreed with the idea that one should ban FW because we don't stock it. The mindset behind it is that the money spent on FW doesn't support the store so why would we allow it? While that makes sense on its head but if you dig any deeper it doesn't  make any sense. FW units for 40k are linked to GW units for 40k. The person who buys FW is going to buy GW, and if he buys FW, that means he has money to spend on the hobby. The dude who buys FW is also the guy who is going to buy all of Citadel's overpriced tools and drop hundreds of dollars on new armies and/or models for existing armies the day of pre-orders. 

 

When I think of my store's biggest 40k customers, there is a 1:1 correlation between them owning Forge World and them buying a ton of GW.

 

Beyond the financial, I've always disliked the base concept of "if you don't support us, then get out!"

I get it, I absolutely do. 

But if people are coming to your store and they don't end up supporting it, that is on you. If someone manages to hobby in your store, and that is a hobby your store participates in, and they don't spend money on it at your store, look at yourself. Is your customer service trash? Is your store smelly and bad? Are they finished getting everything they needed for it? Etc.

To bring this back to FW: If someone brings in FW units, plays at your store, and doesn't end up over time becoming a customer of your store, then realize it has nothing to do with FW. It might be any number of other causes but you were never going to get the $$$ earmarked for FW. 

 

I mostly agree with what you say, but I have some disagreements with the last paragraph.

 

Slight tangent, but people will buy from wherever is cheapest. Very few customers will be loyal to a store even if it costs them more. It doesn't matter how well presented your store is, how many air freshners you have around the place, how nice you are to customers, how well stocked you are etc. Sometimes people won't spend money because they can get it cheaper elsewhere.

 

To take that concept further, they won't spend money when they can't get the stock there, and they can't ever get FW stock from a store. If FW becomes popular, then it's money lost for the store that they can do very little about. If, for example, your store has quite a few players who have Marine armies (not unusual given Marines are very popular) and one of them uses a Leviathan a few times showing how awesome it is, then that's almost certainly money lost as some of those Marine players buy Leviathans instead of spending money on other Marine purchases/different army projects/different games/any number of other things in-store. On it's own, one event like this isn't a big deal. But if it happens regularly enough, over a long enough period and with a big enough player base, it will affect the store's bottom line.

 

Taken to it's possible (and IMO unlikely) extreme, it could even result in large amounts of players using large amounts of FW stuff on the store's boards and terrain, which will, over time, spread to new players/walk in customers. A store has overheads that online retailers don't have, so when running an LGS there is a very fine line between providing a service for your customers and becoming the local games club where people come to just play. No LGS owner wants to pour their money, time and heart into a store just to be used by players as a surrogate games club.

 

To use an analogy. FW can be like an infection, spreading from 40k player to 40k player and over time draining the store of some of it's income. I really don't like that analogy, because calling FW an "infection" gives it a negative connotation that I don't believe it deserves, but it is a good way to describe what can happen. So when I say "infection" I'm referring purely to the way it can spread and nothing more. Which is where the FW bans (unfortunately) come in.

 

To caveat that, like I said previously, I don't like FW bans. They should only be used as a last resort if things get really bad and the 40k players are all buying most of their product from FW and not the store, which is having a knock on effect of making new customers buy loads of FW, or just get put off coming back because of the amount of FW stuff being used. I think that scenario is highly unlikely and really the most extreme of circumstances. And even if it did happen, I think there are many other ways to try and course correct without alienating people by banning them from using some of their models.

 

I honestly feel that any business person has a whole host of options available to reduce the impact FW purchasing can have on their profits, be they a GW or LGS manager, without resorting to a ban. The problem is that not every person who runs a store can see and/or implement these other options. To compound that, a FW ban is one of the simplest and easiest options to implement, which I think is why it happens more than it should.

[Evil Eye]

I think the FW bans are the result of people who don't realize just how much the game has changed in the past 10 years. Once upon a time FW bans were (somewhat) understandable- as an example the Land Raider Achilles was a goddamned monstrosity in 5th, but nowadays it's a viable and cool but not exactly competitively optimal choice. Most FW units are good for flavour/variety, and there are still some very good units, but I think the days of them being "win buttons" are long past.

 

It's funny though because the FW units I like the most and want to field are usually the less "optimal" ones. For example, for the Traitor Guard contingent to my Chaos force I want to do some day (which will probably be helped by a theoretical GW codex, pretty please Geedubs?) I want to include a Malcador Defender, simply because it's a really cool looking tank and the whole "obsolete but still capable" thing appeals to me.