Forge World Bans

[Slasher956]

Oh gawd this again.....

 

LGS can spread their overheads over all their product range, some of which have a far higher and some (BF for example) a lower profit margin. GW can’t....

 

So a store has to pay its rates, tax, staff wages, rent, etc before being in the black. Once in the black it has to help contribute towards the manufacturing costs and the back office costs of gw. The only LGS that has similar costs that I can think of is Wayland games in Essex - they own warcradle games.

 

Ok Some of the cost of running a store in gw can be written off as marketing, but still the income of that comes from sales either direct or from the stores

[MegaVolt87]

Oh gawd this again.....

 

LGS can spread their overheads over all their product range, some of which have a far higher and some (BF for example) a lower profit margin. GW can’t....

 

So a store has to pay its rates, tax, staff wages, rent, etc before being in the black. Once in the black it has to help contribute towards the manufacturing costs and the back office costs of gw. The only LGS that has similar costs that I can think of is Wayland games in Essex - they own warcradle games.

 

Ok Some of the cost of running a store in gw can be written off as marketing, but still the income of that comes from sales either direct or from the stores

 

GW's problem for years is they have never decided on what their stores should be in their wider business plan. A proper retail chain or a marketing ploy to grow the brand. They also have a pretty volatile relationship with independent LGS's, making decisions that have both helped and hurt those stores over time. Options are, they could have stores as a sunk cost to introduce the game, have more support for LGS to grow the game. They can make their cash just mainly through wholesale,  similar to Wizards of the Coast and how they do magic in the past. However, I believe GW would benefit the most from a franchise store model, private owners/investors per each store, back end support from GW. They may see revenue shrinkage, however they remove a lot of risk and expenses, retaining more earnings as an upside. With Brexit ongoing, I would be moving to a franchise store model to future proof the company. If they are insistent on owning their own stores, they should set up a sub company that acquires retail space, this way they can pay store rents back to themselves, both as income and expenses to themselves, while strengthening their balance sheet with better assets than machinery and product stock with land and buildings, gearing etc. 

 

Still, a good retail worker can cross and up-sell. If they believe that their own company products give them a hard time, then they are not good at their job. I know sales reps who have to compete with themselves due to products from subsidiaries that compete with their product lists and they still hit or exceed sales targets. FW should unquestionably be allowed in GW stores. 

[Kite Senet]

Well, I suppose I'll contribute my opinion, though it seems to be decidedly in the minority. I'm not a fan of ForgeWorld stuff, and I'd prefer if much of it wasn't a part of the game...but a ForgeWorld ban doesn't per se solve the problems I have with it.

 

My first problem with it is that most of the ForgeWorld stuff seems to be quite generic; the models that (say) Thousand Sons have access to are basically the same as any other Heretic Astartes army, which I presume is necessary to maximize sales. The problem with this is that either the ForgeWorld stuff is irrelevant (usually the case these days) or it homogenizes the armies in question. This in particular is obnoxious (to me) when perusing army lists and I find that a large proportion of the lists I find either exploit Fire Raptors or Deredeo Dreadnoughts and may not even play faction staples. I'd much rather homogenizing factors like these be kept to a minimum to maintain faction flavor and variety between different armies.

 

My second problem is that by promoting the use of larger models, it tends to push points limits upward beyond the game sizes I most enjoy. Having so many large, points-expensive models on the table makes much larger games more feasible, but it also pushes the communal expectation towards much larger games. I'm more comfortable on the hobby side of things, and much more casual with the game itself, and so I'd much rather have a quicker 750-1000 point game than a 2000+...but the LGS doesn't offer that since there are so many people using these huge models (though not FW at my LGS, since nobody here can actually get them) and these large games simply are the expectation. It really prevents me from seriously attempting to get into the gaming side of 40K, even if I could easily field a 3000+ point strictly Thousand Sons force just from my painted models alone (none of which cost more than Ahriman's 166 points); I just don't have patience for those longer 1750-2000 point games. (Even a few hours at 1000 points feels like a long game to me.)

 

While a ForgeWorld ban doesn't really solve the problem, if my LGS were to promote smaller, mono-codex games it would certainly help my own enjoyment of 40K the tabletop game, and functionally it would likely entail a contextual ban, or at least a curtailment of the more notorious elements of FW's product line.

[kombatwombat]

I'm not a fan of ForgeWorld stuff, and I'd prefer if much of it wasn't a part of the game...

 

My first problem with it is that most of the ForgeWorld stuff seems to be quite generic; the models that (say) Thousand Sons have access to are basically the same as any other Heretic Astartes army, which I presume is necessary to maximize sales.

 

My second problem is that by promoting the use of larger models, it tends to push points limits upward beyond the game sizes I most enjoy.

 

While a ForgeWorld ban doesn't really solve the problem, if my LGS were to promote smaller, mono-codex games it would certainly help my own enjoyment of 40K the tabletop game, and functionally it would likely entail a contextual ban, or at least a curtailment of the more notorious elements of FW's product line.

I think you have a misconception about what FW produces, one that you share with many people who oppose FW. That misconception is that FW = Titans, Thunderhawks and Squiggoths. Yes, FW do produce those but they’re a small fraction of their catalogue. They produce more types of Leman Russ variants than they do types of Imperial Titans, for example. The ‘big bad’ of FW is a small number of units that are horribly overcosted to the point of being unusable. Most of FW’s units are unusual alternatives to standard 40k models.

 

Elements of the FW catalogue being generic isn’t so much to do with design philosophy, but rather a consequence of GW’s actions. Using your example of 1kSons, until about 2-3 years ago there was one Chaos Space Marine Codex and one FW CSM army list to match. Then GW split out the Death Guard and 1kSons into their own Codexes, without really giving thought to how the FW catalogue would fit into the mix, so they share their FW availability with the generic CSM Codex.

 

Encouraging the use of larger models can not be laid at FW’s feet. That is entirely due to GW’s actions around 5th-6th Ed with the introduction of Apocalypse. The coinciding release of the plastic Baneblade, Dreadknight, Wraithknight and Imperial Knight were what began the ‘upscaling’ of the game. That particular buck stops squarely with GW making Knights playable as a whole army. The expense and difficulty level of building big FW models has always ensured their rarity, such that they have no real impact on the scale of the game as a whole. Hell, even the Leviathan - the poster-child of those against FW - is noticeably smaller than a Redemptor Dreadnought.

 

Locking into smaller games doesn’t in any way place a soft ban on FW. This comes back to the initial misconception that FW = Titans. Sub-1000pts you’re still going to see Leman Russes and Dreadnoughts, which means you’ll see Leman Russ Conquerors and Relic Contemptors.

 

FW is not that much different from GW, and the crimes it is often accused of are perpetrated by GW, not FW.

[McElMcNinja]

When I read that most GW/Warhammer stores ban FW and given the fact that most tournaments have to clarify FW is allowed, people may get the impression that FW is not part of the game. I think GW has done a horrible job of integrating FW into their game and that's on them.

I recognize keeping FW products in their stores wouldn't move fast enough to add value to the stores sales (mostly due to cost). I believe they should allow web sales in stores like they do for other GW products and also make it known they are official WH40K products usable in any events, tournaments, stores, etc.

[Orange Knight]

You can take the view that there is no precedent to ban units that appear in expansions, codex supplements, campaign books or outside of a codex.

 

For anyone to claim that certain official rules or models are not allowed isn't in the best spirits of the hobby, in my opinion. Games Workshop themselves are not saying anything of the sort.

[Trench]

FW are GW products, it is still insane to me that a GW product could be banned from some GW owned & managed stores.

 

Obviously independent stockists are a different thing entirely, they have to make the decision they believe best for business, I am just glad I have not had to play in a store of any kind for the best part of 15 years, as clubs seem a lot more open minded. 

[Dracos]

"If it's an issue, I suppose I could replace the two Scorpius Whirlwinds in my army list with Roboute?"

[Kite Senet]

 

I think you have a misconception about what FW produces, one that you share with many people who oppose FW. 

[snip]

 

 

Rather, reviewing my wording in my previous post, I think I was not sufficiently clear that I was speaking reductively of FW by its "most notorious" products and not as a whole, as the discussion revolves around those products. I was certainly not referring to their full army products like Death Korps of Krieg or Renegades and Heretics, nor of course to their products which exist to improve the ordinary GW options (pauldrons, rhino doors, etc) rather than replacing or surpassing them.

 

That said, my impressions of FW are biased towards the Chaos side of things, which--Renegades omitted naturally--we both seem to recognize are homogenized by FW products. (Though I cannot comprehend why they don't simply write 40K rules to play their excellent Osiron Contemptor models as psychic dreadnoughts, or to play those Battle Automata.) I do get the impression of bland homogeneity from the Loyalist side of things as well, but on second thought that homogeneity seems to be an overall modus operandi of the slaves of the corpse Emperor, with or without FW reinforcements. And I'll freely admit I have barely bothered to familiarize myself with the Imperium's mortal chattel, or their pathetic metal bawkses...and after reviewing them, it seems that FW's best product lines (that is, those that are most constructive to the game as I see it) are largely those offered to the Astra Militarum and kin.

 

I also wasn't intending to lay the entirety of the blame for points creep at FW's feet. In general, this GW/FW distinction is a false dichotomy. I'm only discussing FW as a product line that GW offers and considering the effects that product line has on the game. (Or those I perceive, anyway.) Regardless of blame, however, I do think the overwhelming popularity of high-points games to the exclusion of smaller, quicker games can have deleterious effect on the future growth of the game, and a superabundance of large expensive models--whether GW Knight or Daemon Primarch or FW Deredeo or Fire Raptor--can (theoretically) contribute to this effect.

 

But, it's not like it really matters to me, besides FW littering armylists I find on the web. I've never seen a Forgeworld model myself--nobody at the LGS seems to play them--and I just play WH40K at home with family and friends anyway, where small monocodex games have become the default for largely thematic reasons. So, whatever: a FW ban is largely irrelevant to me anyway.

[Orange Knight]

On the topic of distrust:

 

How can people justify a particular distrust for Forgeworld in view of the past record of the main rules for 40k provided directly by Games Workshop? I'm not sure I can accept the view that it's OK for one and not the other. Of course it can be personal bias - and that's absolutely fine as long as people are honest about the reason.

 

Perhaps you've dealt with an over-powered or under-costed FW unit but how is that different to Eldar in 7th edition, or formations giving out free units, or the most powerful combinations that dominated 8th edition? Most recently, for the better part of a year, the competitive scene was dominated by Imperial Knights and Guardsmen.

[Marshal Rohr]

If you listen to the new voxcast and stormcasts the writers talk about having a specific document that governs new rules creation to semantically align all the rules. Forge World can no longer just write rules for 40k because they don’t make 40k models, they make specialist games models. The 40k studio is solely responsible for new rules for the 40k system.

[RandomMarine]

FW doesn't actually write the rules anymore outside of HH it's all handled by the 40k team , all the FW rules ppl now work in specialist games.

[shanewatts]

 

They're average to good, but not completely superior to GW options. Just look at what a farce the Custodes terminators are compared to the Allarus ones for example.

 

You think Allarus are better than Aquilon?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Aquilon are far superior.

[MARK0SIAN]

Aquilon are superior in terms of raw stats/weapons but for me, the stratagem support available to Allarus makes them about equal overall.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you want to use concussion grenades take a shield-captain in terminator armor.

 

Aquilon with Solarite Power Gaunlet - S10 AP4; Lastrum Stormbolter - Rapid Fire 2 S5 AP1. Like I said the Aquilon are far superior.

[MARK0SIAN]

If you want to use concussion grenades take a shield-captain in terminator armor.

 

Aquilon with Solarite Power Gaunlet - S10 AP4; Lastrum Stormbolter - Rapid Fire 2 S5 AP1. Like I said the Aquilon are far superior.

Yeah, I’m not arguing their raw stats are better as I said in my post. But stratagems such as targeting characters, concussion grenade, unleash the lions, piercing strike, castellan strike etc bring them on a par in my view.

 

Of course, if you haven’t got any cp then of course aquilon are better.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I never have a lot of CP to use most of those in any one game. Piercing Strike you have to burn a CP for AP3 versus AP4... doesn’t seem worth it.

[MARK0SIAN]

I never have a lot of CP to use most of those in any one game. Piercing Strike you have to burn a CP for AP3 versus AP4... doesn’t seem worth it.

I think you’re mixing up piercing strike and castellan strike. Castellan strike improves the AP of the axe but piercing strike is a flat +1 to wound on the spear. I think it’s one of the best strats out there. Means you’re wounding pretty much any infantry on a 2 with AP-3. It means you’ve got an excellent success rate against tougher, well armoured opponents.

 

However Aquilon termies are undoubtedly better as a pure unit. Plus they look awesome.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t use Custodians so Piercing Strike isn’t worth it for me and yeah I got that one confused.

[CaptainMarsh]

Even with Strategem Support, Aquillons are better. Custodes are CP starved by standard play and any unit that requires CP to be comparable to another option should be viewed as lesser. This doesn't make Allarus Terminators bad by any stretch- just doesn't make them as good as Aquillons.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Aquilons wound Knights on 3+ and are AP4 bypassing armor saves. Allarus wound on 4+ and are AP2 so Knights still get an armor save. As far as shooting goes the Lastrum Stormbolter is far superior to the Castellan Axe.

[Guest]

Lets refocus on the topic of FW bans and not Custodes Terminator variants.

[Slave to Darkness]

I can see why some GW managers dont like FW stuff in shop, the old Liverpool manager Steve said its because you cant just buy FW stuff in store, so if I use a Titan and lil Timmy see's it he may get upset because his parents cant purchase one in store. Its like advertising a product you cant buy, this could be avoided by allowing FW purchases in store like you can with normal mail orders. 

 

Whilst Steves logic makes sense in a way by that logic we should ban some GW main units that are only available online. 

 

They should drop resin and start to slowly move production over to plastic now GW write all the rules.

[Oshikai]

Not a Fan of Bans and luckily in those GW Stores around here its not something that is even being considered.

 

Personally I don`t mind playing against and with Forgeworld Units , the Hobby Aspect and the Visuals are two really important aspects for me during a Game. If you painted an awesome Forgworld Unit I am the last person to decline you a Game. You worked for your money, you put the Time in to assemble and paint it and I really enjoy seing nice Toys. If after the Game we find that something felt utterly ridicolous it should be possible to adress that. Admittedly spamming Things can become a Problem ...but then thats not that different from many regular 40k Units.

 

I do believe in having a good Talk before the Game, I won`t run a Leviathan in small Points Game against someone new with a distinct lack of Anti Tank, rather thantthat I will pick a different list...I rather have us both having a good Game. Also I think its important to explain more esoteric rules or really powerful weapons before the Game...but then thats something that its being done around here in General during deployment.