Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Marshal Rohr]

Very true. Mathhammer belongs in the rules subs anyway.

[Ishagu]

You literally said you think the best way to play the game is to stay still in a corner and shoot.

 

I am outrigh telling you that this will not work in higher level play with appropriate terrain. As Guilliman encourages crowding and costs more points than 3 Smash Captains I actually feel that he might not be pulling his weight currently, never mind with a point increase.

 

I'm not sure what goalposts have been moved in this discussion. I'm not here to discuss the math only, but the real life application of the unit.

 

If we play with only kill point objectives and no terrain then yes, providing you go first and are in range Guilliman lists are very strong.

[Sete]

So any news about the rest of the supplements? By the Gods I need to know what's happening.

[Marshal Rohr]

So any news about the rest of the supplements? By the Gods I need to know what's happening.

We won’t know until after these two go on sale.

[Toxichobbit]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I don't really have a horse in the Guilliman debate - I'm honestly not a fan of him, the games feel too small when he's included and I'd rather have my dudes than GW's dudes. I was trying to say I agree with him on mobile shooting being more fun to use than just standing still and shooting. I'm just happy with the ability to manoeuver and not suffer penalties for doing so.

[Blindhamster]

So any news about the rest of the supplements? By the Gods I need to know what's happening.

 

there might be more chainswords at some point hopefully brother! imagine the sweet revving sound of steel and zeal!

 

*edit to fix a glaring issue with an important word*

[Ishagu]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I don't really have a horse in the Guilliman debate - I'm honestly not a fan of him, the games feel too small when he's included and I'd rather have my dudes than GW's dudes. I was trying to say I agree with him on mobile shooting being more fun to use than just standing still and shooting. I'm just happy with the ability to manoeuver and not suffer penalties for doing so.

That's what I feel as well, the Marines can now bully other troops as they run forward. The army will be so much more dynamic.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Toxixhobbit: Oh for sure. I'm loving that. The possibilities it's opening up in my mind are amazing. Even Attack Bikes could be a thing again!

 

***

 

I'm preordering this weekend - do we know when they come online?

[Blindhamster]

@ Toxixhobbit: Oh for sure. I'm loving that. The possibilities it's opening up in my mind are amazing. Even Attack Bikes could be a thing again!

 

***

 

I'm preordering this weekend - do we know when they come online?

 

presumably at 10am your local time on the saturday.

[Sete]

 

 

So any news about the rest of the supplements? By the Gods I need to know what's happening.

there might be more chainswords at some point hopefully brother! imagine the sweet revving sound of steel and zeal!

I dream of it!

If BT does not get the shaft, a focus on the assault doctrine will be wonderful with our CT.

[Blindhamster]

I'm undecided if i should play red marines for a while or not, I run pure primaris anyway so not sure i'm losing very much on the blood angel side if I do...

[Toxichobbit]

Even Attack Bikes could be a thing again!

 

 

Wow, slow down there cowboy. Lets not get too crazy :p.

[Ishagu]

I have a friend who plays BA (Very succesfully I might add) but he is salivating at the info revealed so far. I just hope they don't spend 8-12 months updating the Astartes books.

 

If your Army is pure Primaris you should maybe run them as a Red Chapter from the new codex.

[Captain Idaho]

 

@ Toxixhobbit: Oh for sure. I'm loving that. The possibilities it's opening up in my mind are amazing. Even Attack Bikes could be a thing again!

***

I'm preordering this weekend - do we know when they come online?

 

 

presumably at 10am your local time on the saturday.

This is the longest week of all time. Ever.

 

Even Attack Bikes could be a thing again!

 

 

Wow, slow down there cowboy. Lets not get too crazy :p.

I might even get me a Redemptor now it finally can move and support the Contemptor without losing its firepower, but I might just fit in an Attack Bike out of principle now. Just to make it work lol!

[Toxichobbit]

I need to build my second Redemptor. I think i'll run a list with both at some point. I want to see the full Codex before deciding armamaments though - if stalker bolt rifles have changed then it's possible other weapons have. I wouldn't say no to a slight buff to the macro plasma incinerator. And grav - OP in 7th, awful in 8th. There has to be a happy medium for it.

 

I think there's an attack bike in the Conquest magazine, so as I'm subscribed I may as well give it a whirl when it arrives. Sometimes those cheap little units can surprise you.

[Ishagu]

I think the Redemptors could be really good now. This is the other vehicle unit that benefits most from the Tactical Doctrine.

 

We need to see them, what rules they might be updated on and what stratagems impact them. Heck, if we can teleport them in... that would be something.

[Captain Idaho]

A local guy gets me back issues and I'm filling out my army cheap. I'm going to get a 2nd Land Speeder tomorrow as well as 2 units of Scouts. This Codex has revitalised my purchases.

[Toxichobbit]

I think a lot of Dreadnoughts get a nice boost from Tactical Doctrine. You just don't want them to be standing still when they have a melee weapon that makes most units wet themselves. The problem has always been that moving just reduces their firepower. Redemptors really benefit though, with the amount of shots they throw out. Both from Devastator and Tactical.

 

I'm really interested to see how the Scars preview turns out. The previews for two supplements should give us a better benchmark for what to expect in the future.

[Ishagu]

I think a lot of Dreadnoughts get a nice boost from Tactical Doctrine. You just don't want them to be standing still when they have a melee weapon that makes most units wet themselves. The problem has always been that moving just reduces their firepower. Redemptors really benefit though, with the amount of shots they throw out. Both from Devastator and Tactical.

 

I'm really interested to see how the Scars preview turns out. The previews for two supplements should give us a better benchmark for what to expect in the future.

I think Redemptors are a sleeper hit. They are only a few points more than an Assault Cannon Razorback (155 currently) but have more shots, more wounds, great cc. Will be interesting to see what people are doing.

[ERJAK]

You literally said you think the best way to play the game is to stay still in a corner and shoot.

 

I am outrigh telling you that this will not work in higher level play with appropriate terrain. As Guilliman encourages crowding and costs more points than 3 Smash Captains I actually feel that he might not be pulling his weight currently, never mind with a point increase.

 

I'm not sure what goalposts have been moved in this discussion. I'm not here to discuss the math only, but the real life application of the unit.

 

If we play with only kill point objectives and no terrain then yes, providing you go first and are in range Guilliman lists are very strong.

Guilliman lists don't need kill point only and they don't need no terrain and you suggesting as much is a disingenuous strawman that detracts from your own argument.

 

Guilliman lists are strong going first with somewhat sparse terrain against most armies, though have been powercrept quite a bit since the 'GillyRaven' days and are no longer top tier. They are also non-interactive, which makes them appear abusive to those lists/players who do not have the tools to deal with them, regardless of their actual meta strength. Boom, done.

 

Carrying on though, improvements to marine's point efficiency and mobility could potentially see Guilleman gun...carriers? Gunlines but with enough mobility to shuffle around the board at a decent pace, potentially become another 'leafblower' but this time with enough mobility to not lose on the objective game. Not that we'll have any idea until the book actually drops.

[Ishagu]

Until we see it we can't judge anything. Even with Guilliman the old codex was only winning 40% of the time.

 

If it's winning 50% of the time with him in it after it's still not a problem in any way. If we're at the 70% mark? Yep, time for action for sure.

[Dracos]

Anyone hear anything about Hellblaster changes? They badly need a couple points shaved off in manner similar to the Intercessors (free bolt pistol?) and the heavy incinerator version has the same problem as the Stalker bolt rifle. Admitted the rapid-fire bolt rifle got even better recently, but there still isn't a reason to take the heavy incinerator considering the higher efficiency of the rapid fire version.

 

 

PS: I love melee units myself and I want them bumped to be more effective. That said why is anyone surprised the a sci-fi game would give a edge to ranged combat? Its disingenuous (that word gets bandied about quite a bit around here btw lol) and breaks my immersion (another fancy word that gets used a lot :)) to think anything but mega-hordes could overcome ranged weaponry in a quasi-real world simulation. 

 

Sorry guys rant over, really just interested in things like the Hellblasters and if the Aggressors get that extra attack for a second melee weapon that's modeled on the mini :)

[Toxichobbit]

Stalker bolt rifles got D2, so there's a chance heavy plasma incinerators might go to D2 (3 when supercharged).

 

It's not just here. Disengenuous is an internet buzzword. It's one of those trends that people have picked up on because it sounds cool/intelligent and with Google at our fingertips, we can all know what it means. In Ye Olden Days only the literary elite could be arsed looking it up/learning it, so it wasn't anywhere near as common. Or at least that's my theory.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just saw a pic of the Impulsor on the table and it’s massive. Truly no reason it shouldn’t carry ten marines. Total waste of a cool concept for a light APC/IFV

[GrinNfool]

I think everyone is making far too much of bolter grade weapons and their AP bonus. The rules are very nice to fix a glaring weakness of Marines, but don't forget that Sternguard are NOT breaking the meta with AP-2 Bolters, even using their +1 to wound Strategum.

 

Sternguard are also only 1 wound and take up an elite slot.  For 1 more point now and only using a troop slot you get an extra wound per model.  If you gave sternguard 2 wounds for 1 more point per model and made them troops you better believe they would be used everywhere.  I think you taking the changes a bit light, and making a poor comparison honestly.  That said... the intercessors while getting an nice improvement aren't the concern at least to me.  My concern is the stacking of things like doctrines, and chapter rules, when you change this many things and improve this many things you are bound to create problems.  Ultramarine aggressors would be an example here, 3 aggressors now can move and fire 36 +6d6 ap-1 shots s4 sure but thats more than a little scary at ap-1 for just 111 points.  Or 12d6 auto hitting ap-1 flamers after hopping out of a transport now for 108 points.  The fire power is massive for the points there. 

 

For reference on that btw, thats only 17 points per wound vs something with a 3+ save and t5-t7 (after saves).  Which is on par with someAV weapons btw... So it obviously gets more rediculous vs their preferred targets.  Vs MEQ they are 11 points per wound caused (after saves) Aggressors vs guard level are only 4.35 points per wound caused (after save non existent save)  As reference... a punisher Russ with its heavy sponsons and double tapping the punisher is 11.7 points per wound vs guard equivalent. They are more efficient vs MEQ than plasma... over charged plasma.  This isn't a slight thing, mock s4 ap-1 shooting all you want but when you can throw it out there in the quantity that aggressors for UM now can for as low a points cost as they are its a big thing.  The point per wound caused above scares me... and it should scare you, because thats a really... really... bad place game balance to be heading.  You could double aggressors costs and they would still be points efficient for UM.

 

Edit: Minor math adjustment