Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Dracos]

Agreed. I think they specifically didn't want me pushing 5 Aggressors in a cheap transport. :(

[Dracos]

3 Aggressors take one round of shooting from a 5 Intercessors and they lose a critical level of lethality. Marines of all ilk have same problem we always have and that's durability. Only IH and Sallies seem to have a bump on that and its serious a minor one in the Salamanders case imo

[Lemondish]

3 Aggressors take one round of shooting from a 5 Intercessors and they lose a critical level of lethality. Marines of all ilk have same problem we always have and that's durability. Only IH and Sallies seem to have a bump on that and its serious a minor one in the Salamanders case imo

But Marine on Marine battles aren't actually an issue.

 

It's against everything else that they suffered. They simply weren't durable enough or dangerous enough for the points.

 

I think making them a shock force with a variety of units and tactics that make them much more dangerous in fun and strategic ways is a far more elegant solution than simply making them last longer.

 

But some now will last longer still...

[Dracos]

That was my point. I was just using the Intercessors as an example. I don't think anyone is in awe of Intercessors but even the feared Aggressor is fairly fragile in todays firepower environment.

 

 

 

I am thinking Team Tournaments that give points for themed armies might see a few Crusades out there. Each army designed as a hard counter to other metas. Glory Astartes :)

[Lemondish]

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I don't really have a horse in the Guilliman debate - I'm honestly not a fan of him, the games feel too small when he's included and I'd rather have my dudes than GW's dudes. I was trying to say I agree with him on mobile shooting being more fun to use than just standing still and shooting. I'm just happy with the ability to manoeuver and not suffer penalties for doing so.

That's what I feel as well, the Marines can now bully other troops as they run forward. The army will be so much more dynamic.

Correction - Ultras will be more dynamic.

 

Everyone else gets to pay the same points for weaker units ;)

[Panzer]

 

 

Wait, so Scions of Guilliman lets you move without counting as moving as long as Tactical Doctrine is active.

 

Tactical Doctrine looks like it applies to vehicles too, as does Scions of Guiliman.

 

Executioners can doubletap if they don't move or move less than half.

 

So does that mean Ultramarine Executioners can full move and doubletap when under Tactical Doctrine?

Yes. And Aggressors. And Intercessors.

 

All while rerolling all failed hits and wounds.

Oh goodness, my beloved aggressors might see some play now! That double tapping flamer after advancing, huzzah!

 

 

No advancing. The Scions of Guilliman rule explicitly says "but did not Advance or Fall Back".

[Karhedron]

Agreed. I think they specifically didn't want me pushing 5 Aggressors in a cheap transport.

Agreed. A cheap Transport that can carry 10 Primaris (or 5 Gravis) would basically invalidate the Repulsor.

 

Now we have a choice between cheap but limited capacity or a large, heavily armed transport with the cost to match.

[Toxichobbit]

 

Correction - Ultras will be more dynamic.

 

Everyone else gets to pay the same points for weaker units

 

 

We don't know that yet. We still have at least 5 more supplements to be previewed (though only one in this release block).

[Nova_Dew]

For the people talking balance and play testing, as GW have said themselves they are a miniatures company not a games company, the rules are just there as a means to sell you things, it's in their interest to introduce power creep and not have things balanced too much, specially with UM's and in general SM's they are after all GW's flagship 40K force.

 

As for the new dex and supplements, I'll have to wait until at least the WS article if not until all the books are out to form a less biased opinion, but so far it's a lot of extra rules and yet more books for people to lug about if they don't do digital (do GW even update the digital stuff with errata?).

 

Depending on the changes to BA's from the update, i am tempted to make my own Primaris chapter with Long-range Marksman and either Stealthy or Bolter Fusillades, might even do it anyway lol

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Correction - Ultras will be more dynamic.

 

Everyone else gets to pay the same points for weaker units

 

 

I guess it depends how much you believe the playtesters but word is that Iron Hands are going to be the most obviously strong Chapter once they get their splatbook.

 

However ultras might still be the most dynamic, we will not know until we have all the books in our hands and play a few games.

[Medjugorje]

For the people talking balance and play testing, as GW have said themselves they are a miniatures company not a games company, the rules are just there as a means to sell you things, it's in their interest to introduce power creep and not have things balanced too much, specially with UM's and in general SM's they are after all GW's flagship 40K force.

 

As for the new dex and supplements, I'll have to wait until at least the WS article if not until all the books are out to form a less biased opinion, but so far it's a lot of extra rules and yet more books for people to lug about if they don't do digital (do GW even update the digital stuff with errata?).

 

Depending on the changes to BA's from the update, i am tempted to make my own Primaris chapter with Long-range Marksman and either Stealthy or Bolter Fusillades, might even do it anyway lol

 

thats not correct. If a game is destroyed because of failing Balance - the OP-models get sold but after a time nobody want to Play this game anymore... so GeDub should Keep an eye on this.

[Marshal Rohr]

If you listen to the podcasts they make, matched play balance is definitely part of their primary considerations, they just aren’t going to react to something being powerful immediately, they fix it during the General’s handbook/chapter approved cycle. They explicitly say this several times in the Stormcast podcasts.

[Slasher956]

+1 to Medjugorje's comments...

 

Power creep is one of the main turn offs of a game*.... too many people get turned of 40K then it will be harder for people to get pickup games in new places so 40K dies a slow and total demise.....

 

 

*others are no longer supporting the game, not addressing known balance issues etc etc

[Panzer]

+1 to Medjugorje's comments...

 

Power creep is one of the main turn offs of a game*.... too many people get turned of 40K then it will be harder for people to get pickup games in new places so 40K dies a slow and total demise.....

 

 

*others are no longer supporting the game, not addressing known balance issues etc etc

 

Bland rules are way worse to be honest. It's hard to find a balance between those two aspects, though one can't say GW isn't at least trying.

[MajorNese]

Yeah...all this talk of marines gaining AP on basic weaponry is making me very very sceptical of the viability of my AdMech. They weren't strong before, but their infantry being reduced to 6++ saves was already a problem when facing TSons. Now the regular marines do that too, across the board...

 

Well, my AdMech-themed primaris army will have to get stocked up in that case. And they were supposed to be IH before all of this started...

[Slasher956]

 

+1 to Medjugorje's comments...

 

Power creep is one of the main turn offs of a game*.... too many people get turned of 40K then it will be harder for people to get pickup games in new places so 40K dies a slow and total demise.....

 

 

*others are no longer supporting the game, not addressing known balance issues etc etc

 

Bland rules are way worse to be honest. It's hard to find a balance between those two aspects, though one can't say GW isn't at least trying.

 

 

bland rules as in very basic homogenised rules with little to no tactical concept behind... i'd agree with!

 

however this in now very off topic so I'll leave it here!

[Captain Idaho]

@ GrinNfool: the comparison was of the offensive capacity. For the record, Sternguard go to AP-3... ;)

[Ishagu]

I urge people to keep in mind that Astartes are still very much an elite army and quite low model count.

 

It remains to be seen if boosting offence or defence is the more beneficial improvement. Let's see what WS are doing before we start talking about lack of balance between books.

[Guest Triszin]

So any news about the rest of the supplements? By the Gods I need to know what's happening.

I'm guessing 2 more supps next week, then the final 2 the week after

[Lemondish]

 

So any news about the rest of the supplements? By the Gods I need to know what's happening.

I'm guessing 2 more supps next week, then the final 2 the week after

That's very hopeful.

 

I assumed they were preparing for a 4-6 month release timeframe that would give them the ability to spread these releases and Primaris characters across a much wider expanse of time.

[Knightsword]

Re-read the article that previewed the las-fusil and noticed about the bolt sniper rifle being bumped to strength 5. Don't know how I missed that sentence. The idea of the of the executioner round with AP -3 on devastator doctrine is fun, especially when hitting on 2's from either the sergeant or a phobos captain. Are there any rumours of Eliminators being allowed 6 models per squad?

 

 

So any news about the rest of the supplements? By the Gods I need to know what's happening.

I'm guessing 2 more supps next week, then the final 2 the week after

 

 

Can't wait to see what the Fists supplement has in it if this is the case. Don't want to have to wait too long.

[Medjugorje]

I have a friend who plays BA (Very succesfully I might add) but he is salivating at the info revealed so far. I just hope they don't spend 8-12 months updating the Astartes books.

 

If your Army is pure Primaris you should maybe run them as a Red Chapter from the new codex.

Red Templar ;)

[MajorNese]

It remains to be seen if boosting offence or defence is the more beneficial improvement. Let's see what WS are doing before we start talking about lack of balance between books.

Yep, it's too early to see a difference between 6 books when only one has been previewed so far. Back when codices first replaced indices, the sky was apparently falling every day with each new CT/equivalent, until the codex was finally out. Also these new rules are depending on the codex itself - stopgap rules like Beta Bolters weren't tied to a new codex with potentially different profiles/wargear/points.

 

The only thing that is quite clear is that marines gain AP and are improved in general. Which does make the rather mediocre codices like AdMech suffer...

 

 

As for the release window:

The preorder preview from Sunday mentioned codex/datacards/dice, 2 supplements, and model-wise just the generic lieutenant and characters/upgrades matching the supplements.

 

Knowingly missing general units so far:

-Incursor/Infiltrator

-Impulsor

-Invictor

-Eliminator

 

Considering the other 4 supplements will probably include at least one primaris character each (the Ironfather being an indication of this, otherwise there would still be no named IH), this would fill two more weeks of releases neatly. Each week releasing two supplements, one infantry and one vehicle box, and two more characters/upgrade sets to go with the supplemented chapters.

 

Though it will be interesting to see how they deal with Sons of Dorn being 3 CTed chapters in one former legion...what does GW do these days usually, 3-week release windows or 4-week? They still haven't announced multipart Suppressors, so in theory they could add units to the list above, and draw it out a week longer. I guess we'll only know when the codex is out...

[Marshal Reinhard]

two new supplements next week is way too optimistic a view of the release schedule if you ask me. I'll be glad if there's no more than months delay between these and the next batch

[Panzer]

Yeah I doubt it'll be this fast. They won't give us almost a month full of Marine news and pre-orders in one go.