Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[BluejayJunior]

I urge people to keep in mind that Astartes are still very much an elite army and quite low model count.

 

It remains to be seen if boosting offence or defence is the more beneficial improvement. Let's see what WS are doing before we start talking about lack of balance between books.

I agree. I think Space Marines are going to be able to punch hard in the first few rounds, but will still struggle with late game survivability. Their firepower will diminish quickly once they start dying, so it will likely be a matter of Can I kill enough early on to be able to outlast them?

[Hantheman]

Yeah, it seems that the changes at hand haven't really helped with the problem I've had as a Dark Angel player. I can pretty much kill anything, especially elites or hordes, (knights are more challenging) but they die VERY easy for a lot of money. The cost of T4 3+ is too high. I'm interesting to see how things change.

[Subtleknife]

When will the first preview videos go up I cant remember if some sites get them when preorders go up?

[Marshal Reinhard]

what's the verdict on the WS preview?

[Xerxus]

The White Scars preview indicates that they will be lacklustre. Their doctrine specialty comes into play too late, unless there is a way to activate the assault doctrine earlier than turn 3. Kor'sarro Khan seems to lack unique abilites apart from a non-psychic mini-smite.

[Marshal Vespasian]

With the amount of multi wound damage they Deal they will be absolutely nasty vs things like death guard that rely on a fnp.

Als wouldn't want any scars equipped with fists or hammers to charge my superheavies.

[Joukernaut]

Bikers might just have become big.

+1 damage is pretty amazing, it does mean you have to focus the army in CC and have to survive two turns of shooting unless they have a way to get to the assault doctrine faster.

So I guess it all depends what the codex and supplement do for survivability and getting in CC.

[BluejayJunior]

From the preview, I think they are less overtly powerful than the UM. But depending on what is actually in the supplement, they could have some good combos. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well bikers move 20" after turbo boost, can charge, can shoot every gun after the strat and get +1 attack. That's pretty fast and with enough fire power to blow through chaf screens and tie up important shooting units. The doctrine boost seems to be something that's more of a hammer and anvil type function than alpha strike; scout bikes to tie up while you get ready for a big kill on turn 3?

 

Regardless, it's super fluffy and supports a different playstyle well enough imo. It'd be pretty hard to imagine anything beating the ultramarines

[Panzer]

Bikes with chainswords hit as hard as a regular Primaris Marine in melee. It's only turn 3+ when they start hitting harder. The problem is that by turn 3 most games are already as good as over and there shouldn't be much around to hit with S4 AP-1 D2 attacks anymore. Especially not with units you've thrown into the enemys frontlines turn 1-2 so the enemy had good reason to get rid of them early already.

 

It's a very situational rule.

Against armies with multi-wound infantry it's good (Primaris, Custodes, Tyranid Warriors, T'au battlesuits). Against infantry with FnP it's good. On tank/monster/character hunter units with proper weapons it's good (though you should aim to get rid of tanks before turn 3 normally).
Also if there's a way to activate the Assault Doctrine before turn 3 it'll become a good bit more usefull too, though you better have a super dedicated melee list then because otherwise giving up the Tactica Doctrine might not be worth it after all.

[Joukernaut]

I wouldn’t say less powerful per se, but definately less flexible and less forgiving. To make the best out of the white scars, you’d have to heavily invest in melee, and the stratagem support would have to be amazing.

[Captain Idaho]

White Scars Smash Khan and Vanguard just became terrifying. There's bound to be a Warlord Trait like Ultramarines that enables a unit to always count as Assault Doctrine.

 

Also, basic Assault Marines with D2 weapons? Or even Scouts.

 

Seems to me Primaris get a lot less out of White Scars. Arguably Primaris are best off not being taken at all.

 

Oh yeah, without a bike and the fact the units that benefit from being a White Scar are Classic Marines, I think Khan will never be taken by all bar the most hard core fan.

[Blindhamster]

White Scars Smash Khan and Vanguard just became terrifying. There's bound to be a Warlord Trait like Ultramarines that enables a unit to always count as Assault Doctrine.

 

Also, basic Assault Marines with D2 weapons? Or even Scouts.

 

Seems to me Primaris get a lot less out of White Scars. Arguably Primaris are best off not being taken at all.

 

Oh yeah, without a bike and the fact the units that benefit from being a White Scar are Classic Marines, I think Khan will never be taken by all bar the most hard core fan.

How do primaris get less? They're working with more attacks base generally already -rievers or veteran intercessors with 4 attacks each (5 on sergeant) for example

[Subtleknife]

Definitely makes primaris reivers tasty. AP-1 2 damage attacks.

[Marshal Rohr]

If Dark Angels are coming next month they’ll have to be doing jetbikes too.

[Aothaine]

 

How do primaris get less? They're working with more attacks base generally already -rievers or veteran intercessors with 4 attacks each (5 on sergeant) for example

 

 

I wonder if that is going to stack with the Ultramarines stuff that upgrade primaris marines or if they are just going to have veteran primaris available now.

[Panzer]

If Dark Angels are coming next month they’ll have to be doing jetbikes too.

 

That's what everybody said about White Scars too and look what we got. Sneaky Primaris and no Bikes. GWs ways are unfathomable. 

[Captain Idaho]

@ Blindhamster: Poor close combat weapons, slow movement and no Storm Shields. Primaris are a shooting army.

 

Don't get me wrong, Reivers are okay but just that. They are too slow and lack specialist weapons for the job. But if you're going for Assault you want something very good in assault. Like Vanguard.

[Blindhamster]

@ Blindhamster: Poor close combat weapons, slow movement and no Storm Shields. Primaris are a shooting army.

 

Don't get me wrong, Reivers are okay but just that. They are too slow and lack specialist weapons for the job. But if you're going for Assault you want something very good in assault. Like Vanguard.

Whilst I get your point, the primaris units will benefit a lot from it, whilst also still benefiting from the tactical doctrine before getting there. 41 attacks at AP-1 and damage 2 is nothing to sniff at and in the case of rievers, who knows, they might get a sneaky bonus to their blades AP as well!

 

But yeah vanguard will benefit a lot from all the rules for sure!

[Panzer]

Actually Vanguard Veterans and Aggressors are pretty close.

5 VV with 3 Thunderhammers and 2 SS+Chainswords and Jump Packs cost about as much as 4 Flamer Aggressors. They do about 3 more damage on average but also have 3 less wounds and one less toughness. What makes them better is the Jump Pack option while the Aggressors have to pay for their ranged damage output as well. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

I think most people would place the invulnerable saves of Vanguard alongside the speed for the big benefit over Aggressors.

 

Whilst I acknowledge that Reivers and Aggressors can benefit, it's more of a case of the make up of the White Scars army. Most people build an army to gain the most amount of benefits as possible from its special rules. As such, Inceptors, Infiltrators and Incursors, Intercessors (I just realise I don't like these names) won't benefit much from the White Scars rules.

 

Sure, neither will Tactical Marines, but White Scars players likely will take cheap Scouts with Heavy Bolters etc as Troops, maybe some Primaris Troops to move forward, then fill up on bikes and jump pack troops.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Strange they didn't start with Raven Guard if they were not gonna do bikes? Sneaky sneak is just right for RG though

[MARK0SIAN]

They’re just working backwards through the chapters alphabetically. Raven Guard and Salamanders will be next ;)

 

I’m hoping to get Primaris bikes at some point but it’s hard to see how they won’t invalidate normal bikers and so far, GW have avoided exact crossovers with Firstborn units.

[Panzer]

I’m hoping to get Primaris bikes at some point but it’s hard to see how they won’t invalidate normal bikers and so far, GW have avoided exact crossovers with Firstborn units.

 

You mean except for Inceptors and Reivers invalidating Assault Marines and Intercessors to a large degree invalidating Tactical Marines? There's an argument to be made for Hellblasters too if Devastators hadn't access to Lascannons and Stratagem support I guess.  

Also Primaris Bikes could have more of a focus on melee while regular Marine Bikers aren't that great a melee unit and are more of a skirmisher unit.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't get me wrong - if White Scars players kick but with Primaris I'm just as happy. I don't really have a dog in this fight. I just don't think Primaris is well suited to the White Scars.