Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[General Strike]

So, just to clarify, if I want to play a ultramarine successor with custom rules, I lose access to Ultramarine relics and characters, and I don't gain the abilities in the supplement that treats a unit as having not moved, correct?

[Morticon]

So, just to clarify, if I want to play a ultramarine successor with custom rules, I lose access to Ultramarine relics and characters, and I don't gain the abilities in the supplement that treats a unit as having not moved, correct?

 

That's my understanding as you will have custom rules, not UM rules. So you're drawing from the SM dex, not the UM supp.  

[Disruptor_fe404]

Yeah, that looks like how it works, unless you are using counts-as.

[Lemondish]

 

So, just to clarify, if I want to play a ultramarine successor with custom rules, I lose access to Ultramarine relics and characters, and I don't gain the abilities in the supplement that treats a unit as having not moved, correct?

 

That's my understanding as you will have custom rules, not UM rules. So you're drawing from the SM dex, not the UM supp.  

 

 

 

Yeah, that looks like how it works, unless you are using counts-as.

 

Incorrect - the Ultramarine supplement explains it (so does the White Scars one, for reference). 

 

Basically, when you include a unit in your army, you have to choose what Chapter it's from, and if your Chapter is a successor, you need to decide what First Founding chapter is their parent. 

 

Now the book continues on to say that if the parent Chapter is well known in their publications, then you're probably aware of their founder, so you choose that one. Mortifactors, for example, are known to be an Ultramarines successor.

 

If the successor Chapter you've chosen doesn't have a known founding Chapter, but you've chosen the custom Inheritors of the Primarch Chapter Trait, then your Chapter is a successor of whichever tactic you chose. 

 

Otherwise, choose a founding chapter that best fits your successor chapter's character. 

 

The book then continues to explain what you gain - the warlord traits, the psychic powers, stratagems, relics, tactical objectives, and the scions of guilliman ability. The key part here is that you don't HAVE to choose Inheritors of the Primarch as the only connection here is that it determines your successor chapter. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Lemondish

[Morticon]

By this logic, you could induct specific units all tied to the UM founding, with unique CT best suited to their role...AND get scions AND not have anything break the rules??

 

Are you sure of this?? It doesn't seem right at all. Whats the source?

 

This, in essence,also means that you can choose any new supp uber rule with your own CT.

[Disruptor_fe404]

 

 

So, just to clarify, if I want to play a ultramarine successor with custom rules, I lose access to Ultramarine relics and characters, and I don't gain the abilities in the supplement that treats a unit as having not moved, correct?

 

That's my understanding as you will have custom rules, not UM rules. So you're drawing from the SM dex, not the UM supp.  

 

 

 

Yeah, that looks like how it works, unless you are using counts-as.

 

Incorrect - the Ultramarine supplement explains it (so does the White Scars one, for reference). 

 

Basically, when you include a unit in your army, you have to choose what Chapter it's from, and if your Chapter is a successor, you need to decide what First Founding chapter is their parent. 

 

Now the book continues on to say that if the parent Chapter is well known in their publications, then you're probably aware of their founder, so you choose that one. Mortifactors, for example, are known to be an Ultramarines successor.

 

If the successor Chapter you've chosen doesn't have a known founding Chapter, but you've chosen the custom Inheritors of the Primarch Chapter Trait, then your Chapter is a successor of whichever tactic you chose. 

 

Otherwise, choose a founding chapter that best fits your successor chapter's character. 

 

The book then continues to explain what you gain - the warlord traits, the psychic powers, stratagems, relics, tactical objectives, and the scions of guilliman ability. The key part here is that you don't HAVE to choose Inheritors of the Primarch as the only connection here is that it determines your successor chapter. 

 

 

Whoops, my bad! I see he said custom rules. You are correct.

 

Nothing precludes one from playing red Ultramarines though.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

 

So, just to clarify, if I want to play a ultramarine successor with custom rules, I lose access to Ultramarine relics and characters, and I don't gain the abilities in the supplement that treats a unit as having not moved, correct?

That's my understanding as you will have custom rules, not UM rules. So you're drawing from the SM dex, not the UM supp.

Yeah, that looks like how it works, unless you are using counts-as.

Incorrect - the Ultramarine supplement explains it (so does the White Scars one, for reference).

 

Basically, when you include a unit in your army, you have to choose what Chapter it's from, and if your Chapter is a successor, you need to decide what First Founding chapter is their parent.

 

Now the book continues on to say that if the parent Chapter is well known in their publications, then you're probably aware of their founder, so you choose that one. Mortifactors, for example, are known to be an Ultramarines successor.

 

If the successor Chapter you've chosen doesn't have a known founding Chapter, but you've chosen the custom Inheritors of the Primarch Chapter Trait, then your Chapter is a successor of whichever tactic you chose.

 

Otherwise, choose a founding chapter that best fits your successor chapter's character.

 

The book then continues to explain what you gain - the warlord traits, the psychic powers, stratagems, relics, tactical objectives, and the scions of guilliman ability. The key part here is that you don't HAVE to choose Inheritors of the Primarch as the only connection here is that it determines your successor chapter.

So by those rules, I could pick ultramarines as the founding chapter of the blood ravens, and then pick a not ultramarine tactic?

[Lemondish]

By this logic, you could induct specific units all tied to the UM founding, with unique CT best suited to their role...AND get scions AND not have anything break the rules??

 

Are you sure of this?? It doesn't seem right at all. Whats the source?

 

This, in essence,also means that you can choose any new supp uber rule with your own CT.

The source is page 72 of the Ultramarines Supplement.

 

Scions of Guilliman only applies if your entire army is Ultramarines or your entire army is from the same Ultramarine successor. Not sure what you mean by specific units. No Supplement soup is possible.

 

Successors chapters you've created from the codex, complete with whatever combo of tactics you desire from the custom list, are considered Ultramarine successors if...

 

1. They are indicated as such in the fluff (the book used Mortifactors as an example)

 

2. They have chosen to inherit the Ultramarine tactic

 

3. Otherwise, you have decided they are a successor

Edited August 13, 2019 by Lemondish

[Lemondish]

So by those rules, I could pick ultramarines as the founding chapter of the blood ravens, and then pick a not ultramarine tactic?

Yeah - think of it like a test.

 

Step 1: is it officially an Ultramarine successor? (For Blood Ravens, no)

 

Step 2: Is your Chapter tactic chosen using Inheritors of the Primarch? (If yes, you are the successor of whatever chapter tactic you chose, if no...)

 

Step 3: Otherwise, you can choose to be an Ultramarine successor

 

This is also true of the White Scars supplement (they basically have the same page).

[Spinsanity]

Scions of Guilliman only applies if your entire army is Ultramarines or your entire army is from the same Ultramarine successor. Not sure what you mean by specific units. No Supplement soup is possible.

I wish it would also apply if all your entire army was Ultramarines or Inheritors of the Primarch Guilliman and it was thus possible to get it even when fielding, say, a mixed force of UMs, Genesis Chapter and Mortifactors... (as long as all 3 used the exact same CT)

[Panzer]

From what you are saying it honestly sounds no different than it currently is except that one doesn't have to the whole counts-as thing because of one stupid sentence in the Codex.

[zero88]

Aggressors not getting a price increase to go with the plus to Wounds and Attacks is insane, I'll be the first to say they (on first glance) appear to be one of the most broken units in the new book

[Ishagu]

Aggressors not getting a price increase to go with the plus to Wounds and Attacks is insane, I'll be the first to say they (on first glance) appear to be one of the most broken units in the new book

Centurions were the same

[Lemondish]

Aggressors not getting a price increase to go with the plus to Wounds and Attacks is insane, I'll be the first to say they (on first glance) appear to be one of the most broken units in the new book

I wouldn't go that far. They're still pretty slow, even for Ultramarines, and for non Ultras the Bolter ones very much encourage you to play a bit more static if you want to maximize their ranged output.

 

They're tougher nuts to crack now, there's no doubt, and they can now serve much more effectively as a strong counter charge melee unit with the extra attacks. However, they are still difficult to maximize their capabilities in both phases.

 

And I think that makes them pretty fun and relatively balanced, to be honest. To provide them proper support, you need to commit to a Repulsor, and those just went way up in points.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Lemondish

[Closet Skeleton]

Centurions were the same

 

 

Assault Centurions, so whatever.

 

 

From what you are saying it honestly sounds no different than it currently is except that one doesn't have to the whole counts-as thing because of one stupid sentence in the Codex.

 

Its very different because customizable successor traits weren't a thing but in one sense yes, its one less stupid rule to quietly ignore and that's still a welcome sign.

 

Are you sure of this?? It doesn't seem right at all. Whats the source?

 

Its hard to believe but apparently the writers have grown a lot in two years.

[Blindhamster]

 

Aggressors not getting a price increase to go with the plus to Wounds and Attacks is insane, I'll be the first to say they (on first glance) appear to be one of the most broken units in the new book

I wouldn't go that far. They're still pretty slow, even for Ultramarines, and for non Ultras the Bolter ones very much encourage you to play a bit more static if you want to maximize their ranged output.

 

They're tougher nuts to crack now, there's no doubt, and they can now serve much more effectively as a strong counter charge melee unit with the extra attacks. However, they are still difficult to maximize their capabilities in both phases.

 

And I think that makes them pretty fun and relatively balanced, to be honest. To provide them proper support, you need to commit to a Repulsor, and those just went way up in points.

They have a movement of 6-11 and can fire their guns without penalty. How are they slow? They're stationary and firing twice or moving quite quickly and firing once.

[zero88]

Exactly. Unless Terminators got the same wound and attack buff, Aggressors outclass them in basically every statistical way.

[Captain Idaho]

That's just not the case. Aggressors don't have access to an invulnerable save and can't teleport in so can be shot as they get into range (which for them is short).

 

What's more, Terminators have longer range and heavy weapons, whilst also being paired with teleporting characters easier than footslogging or in an expensive transport.

 

I'm not saying Terminators are great or that Aggressors are weak.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[Panzer]

That's just not the case. Aggressors don't have access to an invulnerable save and can't teleport in so can be shot as they get into range (which for them is short).

 

What's more, Terminators have longer range and heavy weapons, whilst also being paired with teleporting characters easier than footslogging or in an expensive transport.

 

I'm not saying Terminators are great or that Aggressors are weak.

 

Unless you are talking about Assault Terminators with Stormshields the invul save doesn't matter most of the time. The deep strike matters though, I agree.

 

About the damage output ... Terminators may have 6" more range, though 18" is enough and you eventually want to get into melee with 4 powerfist attacks per model anyway.

So if we look just at the numbers for roughly the same points (185 vs 187) 5 Aggressors on the move deal 15.83 wounds against MEQ and 5 Terminators (with an Assault Cannon included) deals 8 wounds against MEQ (2.67 of those being AP-1).

In melee it would be 8.75 powerfist wounds for the Aggressors and 6.67 powerfist wounds for the Terminators against MEQ.

 

Durabilitywise it takes:

6.75 Lasgun hits to kill an Aggressor

9 Lasgun hits to kill a Terminator

 

6.75 Bolter hits to kill an Aggressor

6 Bolter hits to kill a Terminator

 

4.5 Bolt rifle hits to kill an Aggressor

3 Bolt rifle hits to kill a Terminator

 

4.5 Pulsrifle hits to kill an Aggressor

4.5 Pulsrifle hits to kill a Terminator

 

3 Heavy Bolter hits to kill an Aggressor

2.25 Heavy Bolter hits to kill a Terminator

 

2.25 Autocannon hits to kill an Aggressor (D2 is irrelevant due W3)

1.125 Autocannon hits to kill a Terminator

 

1.35 supercharged Plasma hits to kill an Aggressor (1.125 when it's AP-4 from Hellblaster and such)

0.45 supercharged Plasma hits to kill a Terminator

 

 

 

So for the same points Aggressors don't just do more damage in shooting (while moving even!) and in melee, they also are more durable. The only real advantage Terminators have is really just the deep strike unfortunately.

[Medjugorje]

maybe it makes a difference if some of them are in cover - or against differt lists. If there are a way to reduce the way into combat by anything like +2 to Charge after deepstrike then Terminators could be working

[Lemondish]

They have a movement of 6-11 and can fire their guns without penalty. How are they slow? They're stationary and firing twice or moving quite quickly and firing once.

They have a move of 5" if they want to shoot twice because Scions does not apply if you advance or fall back. For everyone else, if they want to maximize their ranged damage they have to stand still.

 

But if they also want to maximize their melee, they have to move.

 

They cannot maximize their damage potential in both areas all the time. They must choose. Ultras have to choose less frequently, but it's still a trade off. 50% of their ranged potential but you're creating a good chance to use the fists, or you abandon melee and maximize ranged dakka. Pretty slow.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Lemondish

[MegaVolt87]

maybe it makes a difference if some of them are in cover - or against differt lists. If there are a way to reduce the way into combat by anything like +2 to Charge after deepstrike then Terminators could be working

 

Terminators will be working for Sallies, ignoring the -1AP hits. 

[Morticon]

 

So by those rules, I could pick ultramarines as the founding chapter of the blood ravens, and then pick a not ultramarine tactic?

Yeah - think of it like a test.

 

Step 1: is it officially an Ultramarine successor? (For Blood Ravens, no)

 

Step 2: Is your Chapter tactic chosen using Inheritors of the Primarch? (If yes, you are the successor of whatever chapter tactic you chose, if no...)

 

Step 3: Otherwise, you can choose to be an Ultramarine successor

 

This is also true of the White Scars supplement (they basically have the same page).

 

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain this.  It was entirely and massively counter-intuitive to me on account of how you could mix/match arguably better traits at the cost of special characters.  

 

I'm still in shock!! 

 

It seems that if you're a player that doesnt use special characters this is a god-send.  

 

If i was a marine player, i'd be rocking Stealthy and Artisans and then use Scions of G on top of that.  Sounds awesome. 

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

So by those rules, I could pick ultramarines as the founding chapter of the blood ravens, and then pick a not ultramarine tactic?

Yeah - think of it like a test.

 

Step 1: is it officially an Ultramarine successor? (For Blood Ravens, no)

 

Step 2: Is your Chapter tactic chosen using Inheritors of the Primarch? (If yes, you are the successor of whatever chapter tactic you chose, if no...)

 

Step 3: Otherwise, you can choose to be an Ultramarine successor

 

This is also true of the White Scars supplement (they basically have the same page).

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. It was entirely and massively counter-intuitive to me on account of how you could mix/match arguably better traits at the cost of special characters.

 

I'm still in shock!!

 

It seems that if you're a player that doesnt use special characters this is a god-send.

 

If i was a marine player, i'd be rocking Stealthy and Artisans and then use Scions of G on top of that. Sounds awesome.

Would you make your own Chapter for that, or is there an established one you have in mind that fits that combo?

 

I really like this successor implementation. If I wasn't building an IF force I'd probably make one myself.

[Morticon]

I'm more of a competitive gamer, so I'd make something around that with a colour scheme that fits my aesthetic rather than try find something existing.  (That's assuming Id ever move away from BA :P )