July 2019 White Dwarf: Indomitus Crusade Lore!

[Panzer]

Everybody disagreeing with Lexington:

 

What’s the endstate of the modern 40k story? Before it was the 13th Black Crusade being successful. That’s why it happened in 999.M41. What is the endstate now? How can it be 2 minutes to midnight when you don’t know what time it is? In the other system they’re very purposefully creating events and adding to those events and then writing them down as history in future iterations. It’s a cool premise. 40k has nothing like that that can work that isn’t pre-Primaris history.

 

 

I’m not arguing about any of that. I’m saying it’s two minutes to midnight, so what happens at midnight?

 

 

And what causes it/does it look like/where does it happen, etc.

 

 

I’m not being facetious. Lexington raised a good point that has not been disproven. 40k had a very specific ‘midnight’. It no longer has that, and has suffered from a loss of direction as a result.

 

Midnight is still the same it was before. That is, according to Sanguinius vision which only Dante knows about currently, when the forces of Chaos and the great hunger from the east (aka Tyranids) meet for a final stand at Terra, the golden warrior fights at the stairs of the palace, and the Emperor dies/resurrects/whatever. The conclusion of the end times 40k has always been (which some people seem to forget ... the big event that happened in fantasy is the whole setting in 40k).

The fact that we are now in the 42nd millennium doesn't change anything about that. It was always just an assumption that the conclusion will happen at the end of the 41st millennium. Semi supported by GW never moving past that threshold but it never got stated anywhere that the conclusion really will happen right then and there.

All they are doing now is filling the space between 5 minutes to midnight and midnight. However close we are, whether "to midnight" describes a time or a state of the galaxy or something entirely else, nobody can tell for sure.

So GW has all the freedom they need to provide us with new content for a long long time without breaking any "rules" of the setting.

Edited July 22, 2019 by sfPanzer

[armarnis]

Whats the problem when we go from 2 minutes to midnight to 30 seconds to midnight and then wrestle the clock back? Apocalypse is still at hand but SOMETHING happenend. It didnt change much at all

[Excessus]

 

  the Navis Nobilite is waaay too important to the Imperium to just go out and insult like that. The Navis Nobilite, quite apart from how rich, well armed, and influential they are are necessary to any functioning Imperium... Unless they bring back the Pharos or use Astartes Psykers as Navigators (in the same way as Chaos uses Psykers instead of Navigators) - that could in fact turn into a really interesting conflict I hope

 

Yeah, that's why they whipped him instead of, you know, assassinating him... ;)

[Sword Brother Adelard]

For what it's worth, back when I started the hobby, all that was required to know about the developments of both settings was a White Dwarf subscription. And there were big developments back then; namely the Storm of Chaos and Eye of Terror world campaigns.

 

I learned everything there was to learn about these month by month with White Dwarf. No novel from the Black Library was necessary to be aware of some critical knowledge, and that was a good thing because books had to jump through several hoops before being translated in my language, leaving several English-only.

I was thinking about this statement this morning. I think you're right on the whole, when I left the hobby this statement was certainly true, you didn't need much beyond WD and the main rule/army books to stay up to date on the setting.

 

I think this article in particular is (hopefully?) a return to those days. One of the things I have loved about the WD shake up these past 6 months is just how much more content there is now that we don't have 50 pages of adverts for releases which we had already seen on Warhammer Community. The article does highlight the lack of non-BL fluff since 8th dropped, but perhaps the real cause was how poor WD had got?

 

(In addition, a more cynical view may be that putting the fluff in BL is a way of further monetising it?)

Edited July 22, 2019 by Brother Adelard

[Excessus]

A kind reminder. 

 

This is a subject that will inevitably stir emotions, and I've seen some posts in this topic that has been less than constructive. Please keep it constructive. :) 

 

 

I refer to the rules of the board: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334648-rules-of-the-bolter-chainsword/

[Marshal Rohr]

Half the Imperium has essentially been lost. Is this not edging toward midnight?

Again, what specifically is midnight, how is it going to arrive, who is going to cause it, etc, etc. If this cannot be summarized succinctly and easily across the entire IP Lexingto’s point about little bubble of IP floating and bumping into each other is illustrative of the problems with modern 40k.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

How has it ended? I cannot wrap my head around this point because nobody wants to explain just how exactly did it end? Have we broken continuity with what came before? Is the setting and narrative suddenly markedly different in its fundamental constituents? I'll gladly argue against the point, but first a point has to actually be made.

 

 

 

Because what we've got now is increasingly not 40k any more for a decent chunk (obviously I don't know how large a chunk, but they clearly exist) of people. For some it might be the Primaris, for others it might be Cawl, or having Primarchs running around. It's like if Tolkien had published a follow up to Lord of the Rings about Gondor's industrialisation and economic strife in the mid 4th age, with a sub plot about the effects of black lung on the coal mining hobbit communities. It might be a solid book when taken in isolation, but it sure wouldn't feel like LOTR any more.

 

Now personally, I don't know if I'd go as far as to say 40k 'died', but if it didn't it's certainly been for a while (imo the rot started, or at least became really noticeable around 2015 with Warzone Damocles). It definitely changed, and for those that don't like the new direction/tone is there a real difference between 'dead' and 'so different I don't recognise or like what's calling itself '40k' these days'?

 

I still can't shake the feeling we're in the process of 'Sigmarising' 40k, but via the the boiling frog method. GW learnt the hard way with AoS that a clean reset caused problems, so they're doing it more gradually changing bits here and there, until the product that exists under the '40k' banner is a completely different beast to what we've known.

 

 

 

 

but the storytelling logic of the place was wrecked and remains so.

How has this happened? All I see here is a prime target for Hitchen's Razor.

 

I must admit to not being 100% what Lexington meant by 'storytelling' logic here, but for me what has been wrecked is the world building logic and internal consistency (admittedly never 40k's strongest point, but there's even less now). 40k shouldn't exist by now, even by it's own internal standards. The logistics of the Imperium make even less sense now thanks to the Great Rift.

 

It doesn't feel like a grounded story any more, just a bunch of events thrown together in an attempt to be 'epic'. Case in point that really ground my gears, the Gellarpox. That alone is an apocalyptic scenario (but in a boring, logistical way), completely destroying the Imperium as we understand it as interstellar travel would inevitably break down, navies and crews would mutiny, and the Imperium would devolve into a bunch of individual star systems ala Old Night. Yet they were just thrown in to give that Rogue Trader something to fight and up the 'grimdark' quotient.

 

Compare the new hotness, Vigilus, to the old hotness, Cadia. From it's very genesis Cadia had a history, it had been the Gate to Hell for 10,000 years. Whereas Vigilus only matters thanks to recent plot developments (both in real time and story time). The first attempt at the 13th Black Crusade was built up in the fluff for years before finally pulling the trigger on the EoT campaign. Vigilus has been invaded by most noteworthy galactic factions (iirc only the Tau and Crons were left out completely) in 2 years real time and only something like 20 years in-universe time. There's no build up or ramp down any more. Just "BIG EPIC THING" followed by "IMMEDIATELY FORGET THE LAST THING, TIME FOR THE NEW BIGGER EPIC THING". It's just hard to care on the same level compared to when things were more spread out and (imo obviously) better paced.

 

Just look at this thread, it only came about because GW are finally trying to backfill some of the world building they've neglected for the last couple of years, despite that being a time when it was needed most. Now, I'm not sure how much of this is actually new info, and whether it really fixes many of the issues with post-Gathering Storm 40k, but I'm a pessimistic, cynical   at the best of times .

 

 

Simple as that. How can people still enter the game, setting and story, and play within it, have fun and just in general a grand old time if it supposedly ended in 2017?

Because they don't care about the fluff, preferring painting or playing (like a good chunk of my friends who still play). Or just headcannon/ignore the new fluff they don't like because they enjoy playing games with friends, or models xyz are cool.

 

 

How can they enjoy a still developing thing if it purportedly died and something else skinwalks as it?

Because they might honestly enjoy the new thing? But that won't be true for everyone, and the people who don't like that the old thing died to produce this new thing aren't wrong for not liking it. It also doesn't mean the old thing didn't die either.

[Panzer]

 

 

How has it ended? I cannot wrap my head around this point because nobody wants to explain just how exactly did it end? Have we broken continuity with what came before? Is the setting and narrative suddenly markedly different in its fundamental constituents? I'll gladly argue against the point, but first a point has to actually be made.

 

 

 

Because what we've got now is increasingly not 40k any more for a decent chunk (obviously I don't know how large a chunk, but they clearly exist) of people. For some it might be the Primaris, for others it might be Cawl, or having Primarchs running around. It's like if Tolkien had published a follow up to Lord of the Rings about Gondor's industrialisation and economic strife in the mid 4th age, with a sub plot about the effects of black lung on the coal mining hobbit communities. It might be a solid book when taken in isolation, but it sure wouldn't feel like LOTR any more.

 

Now personally, I don't know if I'd go as far as to say 40k 'died', but if it didn't it's certainly been for a while (imo the rot started, or at least became really noticeable around 2015 with Warzone Damocles). It definitely changed, and for those that don't like the new direction/tone is there a real difference between 'dead' and 'so different I don't recognise or like what's calling itself '40k' these days'?

 

I still can't shake the feeling we're in the process of 'Sigmarising' 40k, but via the the boiling frog method. GW learnt the hard way with AoS that a clean reset caused problems, so they're doing it more gradually changing bits here and there, until the product that exists under the '40k' banner is a completely different beast to what we've known.

 

 

 

And for some people 40k died after 2nd edition, for some after 3rd edition and so on and on. With each new edition there will be some who don't identify with it anymore but also way more who do. It's not like it's unique to 8th edition and its fluff development. ;)

[MARK0SIAN]

The thing that changed the most for me is that the 40K galaxy now feels like a much smaller place.

 

There’s never been such an event as 8th where it literally effected the entire galaxy (other than the heresy). Even Black Crusades could generally be ignored by 3/4 of the galaxy. Now however, everything is tied to the rift and the crusade and RG etc. All the stories/background/fluff are linked to that in some way so it feels like everything everyone does is connected in some way.

 

There’s much more centralised governance and organisation for the imperium than we’ve ever seen, even with the rift. It doesn’t feel like there’s space for any self contained stories or events that aren’t linked to the main events in this edition. Whereas previously we had entire novel series where everything in it was completely independent of everything else in he Imperium.

 

Having to constantly reference and work with the new architecture of the galaxy has made it all seem much more interconnected and smaller than it ever used to, at least for me.

 

Now I’m not saying all of this is bad but i would certainly enjoy it more if we started getting some stories and background that were deliberately set apart from the current business of the galaxy and it’s major players.

Edited July 22, 2019 by MARK0SIAN

[Marshal Rohr]

What is unique to 8th Edition is the replacement of the two minutes to midnight of Abaddon’s ultimate victory with a new status quo that is missing the tension it had previously. Imagine for a moment Lord of the Rings, but without the Ring or Sauron trying to find it. Imagine Star Wars without the Emperor undermining the Jedi. In the quest to reinforce 40k as a setting, they took out the main ingredient that provides the motivating force. A narrative must have three parts. It has to have a beginning (the Great Crusade and Heresy), a middle (ten thousand years of history), and an end (the ultimate victory of Chaos and the collapse of the Imperium). Prior to 8th Edition, 999.M41 was the Climax of the story. Abaddon had launched a massive invasion of the Imperium, Ghazghkull had created the largest unified Ork invasion of the Imperium since the Great Crusade, the Tyranids had opened the entire entire Galactic South to invasion, siphoning off valuable forces from stopping the Chaos threat in the West and Ork threat in the Segmentum Solar.

[Excessus]

While the setting of the year 41,999 was cool and all, I imagine it was very hard for GW to develop the story further without doing something drastic. They had really painted themselves into a corner long before the franchise became this big and something needed to be done, they had dragged it out for a long time... 

[Marshal Rohr]

If it feels that way it’s because the narrative was poorly managed for three editions before 8th. Instead of expanding on and deep diving into why the current situation was apocalyptic we got three editions of Ghazghkull magically teleporting away from where he should’ve stayed, Tyranid fleets with no sense of urgency, and a frozen conflict at Cadia that never capitalized on what the entire contents of the Eye spilling into real space would like like strategically or impact politically.

 

The new changes aren’t inherently a bad thing, they just aren’t very strong. You get small glimpses of potential in the new lore. Abaddon’s armies conquering swathes of the Imperium Nihilus is mentioned in Vigilus. The ten fleets of the Indomitus Crusade are great vehicles to open ten fronts in which to build new Armageddon’s and Cadia’s from, but in the very same articles were you get the glimpses of potential like this one, they undermine it by doing stupid things like one sisters of battle convent leading the fleet. The new lore is specific where it should generalized, and generalized where it should be specific.

[Knight of the Raven]

And for some people 40k died after 2nd edition, for some after 3rd edition and so on and on. With each new edition there will be some who don't identify with it anymore but also way more who do. It's not like it's unique to 8th edition and its fluff development.

"For some people," precisely.

 

I can't fault people for believing—realizing—the Warhammer 40,000 they fell in love/grew up with is no more. I consider it a fair thing. 'Things change' is the way of the world though, and now I feel like an idiot for expecting the Warhammer 40,000 I knew to last forever, never changing, like the Imperium.

 

At least the latest 'old Warhammer 40,000' looks like it'll be discharged relatively honorably instead of being dragged behind a barn and getting a magazine's worth of explosive bullets into the back of its skull, unlike the big brother Games Workshop wants to sweep under the carpet.

 

A whimper isn't a particularly better way to go than a bang, true, but at least no one got Bret'd. (I half-expect the Sisters of Battle to be Khemri'd in the near future, though.)

 

So yes, the specific iteration of Warhammer 40,000 some people loved and cherished is a thing of the past. As it has already happened for previous iterations, and as will happen for the current one—I wish to still be alive thirty years from now just to see if the Primaris will one day be referred as Secondborn just as a third, even bigger generation is brought to bear.

 

The solution I found for this problem boils down to four words: let go; walk away.

 

Yes, I came back after a little more than a year. But it's the Bolter & Chainsword community I returned to, not Warhammer 40,000 per se. I still fiddle about with models, but they now are the only thing I so very vaguely care about in Games Workshop's new paradigm. I've lost interest in the current lore and I'm not looking forward to their IP becoming a bloated, ubiquitous franchise like Marvel and DC.

 

I now have peace of mind, because I've stopped making the hobby such an important part of my life. I'm little worried about chainswords going the same way terminators seem to be scheduled to, but that's all.

[Orange Knight]

Out of general curiosity I have to ask:

 

Do people feel they hold some sort of ownership over the 40k lore?

 

I see a lot of upset because the setting didn't remain static, or because it moved in a direction some did not want.

People need to understand that they might belong to a vocal minority, because if sales and hobby engagement are anything to go by then what Games Workshop has done is overwhelmingly correct.

 

I'm very much in the camp of acceptance. The status quo is overwhelmingly the same. Some big events have transpired but the scope for unique narrative remains unchanged - if anything you're more free than ever in this regard. Chaos are still a growing threat, the Imperium is still clinging on. Guilliman's Crusade is not much different to the one led by Lord Solar Macharius.

 

As I pointed out earlier we are still in the process of a transition. The lore will be evolved over the coming months, the blanks will be filled in and eventually everything new will become ingrained into the accepted history of 40k.

[Marshal Rohr]

Out of general curiosity I have to ask:

 

Do people feel they hold some sort of ownership over the 40k lore?

 

I see a lot of upset because the setting didn't remain static, or because it moved in a direction some did not want.

People need to understand that they might belong to a vocal minority, because if sales and hobby engagement are anything to go by then what Games Workshop has done is overwhelmingly correct.

 

I'm very much in the camp of acceptance. The status quo is overwhelmingly the same. Some big events have transpired but the scope for unique narrative remains unchanged - if anything you're more free than ever in this regard. Chaos are still a growing threat, the Imperium is still clinging on. Guilliman's Crusade is not much different to the one led by Lord Solar Macharius.

 

As I pointed out earlier we are still in the process of a transition. The lore will be evolved over the coming months, the blanks will be filled in and eventually everything new will become ingrained into the accepted history of 40k.

 

No one has been disputing that. Right now there are plenty of gems mixed in with the garbage, as I mentioned earlier. If GW recommits to bringing back the narrative tension of 'two minutes to midnight' it used to have, then well done for them. In this very article the idea of ten salients against the myriad threats coming for the Imperium is awesome. Its not awesome how small they made those fleet feel by choosing to be specific, but once someone comes along and fixes that, great! Expeditionary Fleets are awesome. Huge Crusade fleets are awesome. Here is to hoping they build them up well instead of it just being a throwaway reference like Abaddon's conquests in the Imperium Nihilus. 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Sete]

@Orange_Knight:

You don't need ownership over something to like it.

I disagree with most of your post because it veers dangerously close to false assumptions.

I would not put all the credit of GW recent "revival" on the new dark imperium, but instead on the new marketing approach.

Dark Imperium is a product of that change, not the cause of it.

Since, we the costumers do not own the IP, we have 2 choices, take it or leave it, but its not all black and white. As a costumer I can express my dissatisfaction about a product I have paid for changing, or can praise it. Its feedback. But I do agree tempers and emotions get a bit on the way. We are humans after all,  not necrons.

Again comparing Guilliman importance to Macharius, feels like another false equivalence.

Guilliman is a central character of the setting. Even when in stasis he was permanently on the background of the setting, his shadow casting influence throughout 10k years history of the Imperium after the great crusade.

 

Its like me crashing my car, and you saying to me, nothing changed you still have a car. Technically you are right, but that car is broke in half, it will never be the same.

 

But I do understand your point of view, and please accept my criticism as constructive.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Sete

[SpecialIssue]

Ah so all the zombies of 40k past come out of the woodwork with their complaints...

 

While the setting of the year 41,999 was cool and all, I imagine it was very hard for GW to develop the story further without doing something drastic. They had really painted themselves into a corner long before the franchise became this big and something needed to be done, they had dragged it out for a long time... 

 

Even though I am against the idea of needing the 'plot' (is 40k a story, or a setting?), that something could have been so so much better and smoother than what we got.

 

There are many multitudes of reasons, coming from the macro thematic scale to details that don't sit well with the development of 40k for me. But I lament the demise of the old Imperial dating system as indicative of many of my complaints.

 

Gone is a well-thought out excellent piece of world building that delved deep into the practicalities of living in the 41st millennium - created at the very beginning of 3rd edition (earlier even?). Part of my rancor is that I am cynically certain that this was done not due to the benefit of the setting but as a handy way to preserve the IP/prevent the rebranding of 40k - because if you moved the story further, it wouldn't be in the 41st millennium anymore.

 

Just a little afterthought of "oh and the Cicatrix Maledictum also creates a giant time-wimey distortion wave across the galaxy and also the Imperium is derpy and useless at keeping its date straight so there we go, we could still be in the 41st millennium, don't have to technically call it W41k." It's just like most of the other fluff - it didn't evolve organically from cause and effect but was forced this way in order to bring something to pass (to sell these new models, or maintain the easy use/familiarity of the 40k brand).

 

Coming back to the new Indominus Crusade lore, this is exactly how it reads to me. They needed to sell Primaris to everyone, thus in-universe Indominus was the fluff vehicle needed to allow it. This new lore is coming after that initial need and is filling in the background of that need halfheartedly, trying as much as possible to dress up solutions and mitigate problems the introduction of this McGuffin/deus ex machina plot point throws up. None of what Guilliman was described as doing in his organisation struck me as superhuman or genius - rather it just seems like standard procedure. And if organizing travel through perilous warp conditions is so easy and was able to be done with such light casualties on a whim, why is it not done more often/ such an angst/problem for the Imperium? Perhaps the only thing Guilliman is bringing is his influence as a Primarch, which in any other context is perhaps the definition of a bad character design to inject into a story purely by the ease at which his mere status solves problems.

 

As well as an example of opportunistic development of lore designed for commercial reasons, I feel that this is an example of losing touch with the character/complexities of the Imperium. The old Imperial calendar reveals so much of it's culture and the practical issues of the universe - it is entirely based in reference to Holy Terra, tries to take into account the temporal reliability of the date with it's myriad check numbers and classifications of sources, and it's autistic mathematical formatting and division of a year not into days but into 1000 fractions.

 

The Imperium isn't just some one-dimensional fanatical church burning books and histories - but also an immense machine ticking by sheer inertia, as well as a feudal military regime of sometimes competent, but always ruthless players jockeying for dominance - GoT, not idiotic maniacs (most of the time...). The old dating system encapsulates so much about its both its culture of bureaucracy as well as showing the human effort of trying to bring a semblance of order and governance to the insanity of scale and time it tries to work across. In fact, I'd count this part of Imperial culture as the least likely to be incorrect - it is based entirely on how many times the Earth has gone round the Sun which is impossible to count wrong if you're as paranoid as the Administratum about data, performing agonizing math 100 different ways in triplicate to check a simple count. Yes, you could say that "ha, but some guy(s) with a conspiracy to change history changed the calendar/erased some days and thus we don't know anything because the Imperium is idiotic and useless without the Primarchs and the Emperor..."

 

And yes, it is entirely plausible. But come on - I thought 40k used to/could be more than that, more complex than that. The Imperium should be characterized as a beast that is far more than just merely incompetent. Besides, you don't think the Administratum and the Adeptus Terra, largest and one of the most powerful and autistic of all the apparatus of the Imperium wouldn't have a say in keeping this golden goose of theirs correct? It used to be that some things are too big for anyone in 40k to change... Restraint is half the art in telling a story and setting a scene; the other is imagination, and they are nothing without one another.

 

I also lament the change in the Imperial calendar because I just wish they would have the courage to call it 41k; all this high-fantasy carousing about the galaxy uncovering earth-shattering developments doesn't feel like they belong in what was once 40k. And my curse is that I have a strongly formed idea of what 40k could have been.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I'm very much in the camp of acceptance. The status quo is overwhelmingly the same. Some big events have transpired but the scope for unique narrative remains unchanged

 

While Sete has already covered most of what I'd want to say in response to your larger post, this bit highlights 2 things for me that mark where GW have taken wrong turns.

 

First, I would say that the scope for unique narratives has undeniably changed, especially if you want to use established Chapter/Warbands/Regiments etc. Your homebrew Cadian regiment fluff has to include the loss of Cadia in some capacity. Every DIY must answer the 'Primaris, what to do with them?' question. If you collected Knights of Blood, then you need to pull some headcannon shenanigans to have your army in 'present' 40k. Now, whether it has grown or shrunk can be quibbled over, and probably boils down to which slice of 40k you want to plant your roots in, but it has definitely changed.

 

Second, the whole "status quo is overwhelmingly the same" thing. While I'd agree overall, that is actually the core of much of the dissatisfaction imo. 'Everything stays overwhelmingly the same' and 'Big dramatic events' just don't mix. Look at the cynicism around Vigilus Ablaze with Calgar vs Abby. Nobody expected anything to come of their showdown, because both characters are big chesses with recently produced models. They want to have their cake (we're the same static, status quo grimdark universe as ever!) and eat it too (dramatic character showdowns! Who will live and who will die? Will the Imperium's most vital system stand or fall. Look, Cawl is heralding a new age of hope and new shiny tech!). We've ended up with a setting that can be legitimately criticised by fans as both being too grimderp and bleak, yet also too hopeful.

 

That's one of the things that kinda hacks me off about current 40k, if you wanted to progress the story, you could have done that without upending the status quo. Just use a smaller focus, play out a bit of story in a specific area, some characters may die etc. Then move to the next one. Basically like FW did with things like Badab, sure they had dramatic twists heroes, villains, even some big scale ripple effects (most notably, the rise of Huron and the Red Corsairs) and that was great. But at the same time they were contained and localised. The Badab war had very little effect on Terra, Ryza or Catachan. Sure it'd suck if one of your favourite characters/units got the chop, but this would have been a much less 'traumatic' way of getting that 'advancing plot' feel than what we got.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Kelborn
Removed Off topic

[Oshikai]

Try being a dedicated Warhammer Fantasy Player...still haven`t gotten over it since that was allways my Main System, actually made me drop the whole Hobby for quite a while. Maybe thats one of the Reasons why I am not that bothered witch recent 40k Developments. 

[Frater Antodeniel]

Something that, i believe, both sides (conservatives and progressives) can/will agree on, is the fact that like i hinted earlier, the transition from the 40k Era to the Primaris Era was rushed from a Lore point of view.

 

The transition, Lore speaking would have required some years (2 to 3) of reading materials, with many of those dedicated to the ending of some "Key" problems/events of the 30-40k Universes. And when looking at what happened, we can see that there was many good ideas proposed.

 

For examples, the fighting of the Space Wolves against the Thousand Sons was a great marker for both factions. (Thought the inclusion of the Dark Angels wasn't really a necessity, but the basic idea of events was good). On the same note, the events that happened during the Damocles campaing were also very good in the sense that it closed a campaign, and made all the engaged factions progress fluff-wise. Finally on a third thing that come to my mind, is the small engagement that involved the Deathwatch against Eldrad Ulthran when the later attempted the awakening of Innead. Those three events, were all great markers of the coming events of the Primaris Era, and great transition points (that still would have deserved a little more work on, as well as a novelisation of the story that was present in the Campaign Books, but the base ideas are present nonetheless).

 

Following the previous examples, and with some knowledge of the 40k Universe, there would have been great opportunities to perform the transition, some of them are even officialy presented by GW itself :

 

- First, mentionned by GW in the Space Marines codex 8th edition, is the siege of the Chogoris system/Yasan sub-sector, that involved the White Scars and the Red Corsairs. That happened just before the Great Rift opening that would have made for a wonderfull stage for many Imperial Forces, and not only the White Scars. (The same can be said on the Chaos side of the coin.)

 

- Secondly, the "Hunt for Cypher" (a great title by the way^^) a campaign involving mostly the Dark Angels, but other more secretive forces, "friends" or foes.

 

- Thirdly, a true novelisation of the events that happened during the Thirteen Black Crusade. (Events that curiously did not get the true novelisation that such events deserved.)

 

- Fourth, like i said in my previous post, the "Cure" for the Blood Angels Red Thirst and the closing of Corbulo Quest, that would have opened a great prequel or sequel, for the Devastation of Baal events.

 

I'm sure that many of you may formalize a lot of other ideas that would fit the fluff, close some non-sense or gap that the rushed 8th edition created.

 

Plus, to note that, those Lore product wouldn't had impact on the miniature side of the business, it would have even beneficiated from it, should it had been well handed.

 

On my personnal thoughts, as a customers, i was happy when, years ago, i witnessed the resurgence/emergence of Black Library 40k reading material (Dante/Deathwatch the novel/Genestealer Cults the novel/Mephiston/Lemartes/Charcharodons/Flesh Tearers omnibus), and i was satisfied with all the good book i bought, but now, when i see that all the authors are forced to includes Primaris and to place the events after the opening of the Great Rift, i'm less enthusiastic to buy new novels, most notably after the Devastation of Baal novel, that while being a good reading, appeared to be a sub-performance of Guy Haley, when compared to the wonderful DANTE novel he wrote. (But there may be still hope, for Requiem Infernal was spared from those obligations.)

 

Wait and See.

[Oshikai]

Interesting, I honestly have to say I really enjoyed Devastation of Baal (admittedly I read Dante an DoB back to back and hence viewed it as a package).

[RikuEru]

But I lament the demise of the old Imperial dating system as indicative of many of my complaints.

 

Gone is a well-thought out excellent piece of world building that delved deep into the practicalities of living in the 41st millennium - created at the very beginning of 3rd edition (earlier even?). Part of my rancor is that I am cynically certain that this was done not due to the benefit of the setting but as a handy way to preserve the IP/prevent the rebranding of 40k - because if you moved the story further, it wouldn't be in the 41st millennium anymore.

 

Just a little afterthought of "oh and the Cicatrix Maledictum also creates a giant time-wimey distortion wave across the galaxy and also the Imperium is derpy and useless at keeping its date straight so there we go, we could still be in the 41st millennium, don't have to technically call it W41k." It's just like most of the other fluff - it didn't evolve organically from cause and effect but was forced this way in order to bring something to pass (to sell these new models, or maintain the easy use/familiarity of the 40k brand).

 

Coming back to the new Indominus Crusade lore, this is exactly how it reads to me. They needed to sell Primaris to everyone, thus in-universe Indominus was the fluff vehicle needed to allow it. This new lore is coming after that initial need and is filling in the background of that need halfheartedly, trying as much as possible to dress up solutions and mitigate problems the introduction of this McGuffin/deus ex machina plot point throws up. None of what Guilliman was described as doing in his organisation struck me as superhuman or genius - rather it just seems like standard procedure. And if organizing travel through perilous warp conditions is so easy and was able to be done with such light casualties on a whim, why is it not done more often/ such an angst/problem for the Imperium? Perhaps the only thing Guilliman is bringing is his influence as a Primarch, which in any other context is perhaps the definition of a bad character design to inject into a story purely by the ease at which his mere status solves problems.

 

As well as an example of opportunistic development of lore designed for commercial reasons, I feel that this is an example of losing touch with the character/complexities of the Imperium. The old Imperial calendar reveals so much of it's culture and the practical issues of the universe - it is entirely based in reference to Holy Terra, tries to take into account the temporal reliability of the date with it's myriad check numbers and classifications of sources, and it's autistic mathematical formatting and division of a year not into days but into 1000 fractions.

 

The Imperium isn't just some one-dimensional fanatical church burning books and histories - but also an immense machine ticking by sheer inertia, as well as a feudal military regime of sometimes competent, but always ruthless players jockeying for dominance - GoT, not idiotic maniacs (most of the time...). The old dating system encapsulates so much about its both its culture of bureaucracy as well as showing the human effort of trying to bring a semblance of order and governance to the insanity of scale and time it tries to work across. In fact, I'd count this part of Imperial culture as the least likely to be incorrect - it is based entirely on how many times the Earth has gone round the Sun which is impossible to count wrong if you're as paranoid as the Administratum about data, performing agonizing math 100 different ways in triplicate to check a simple count. Yes, you could say that "ha, but some guy(s) with a conspiracy to change history changed the calendar/erased some days and thus we don't know anything because the Imperium is idiotic and useless without the Primarchs and the Emperor..."

 

And yes, it is entirely plausible. But come on - I thought 40k used to/could be more than that, more complex than that. The Imperium should be characterized as a beast that is far more than just merely incompetent. Besides, you don't think the Administratum and the Adeptus Terra, largest and one of the most powerful and autistic of all the apparatus of the Imperium wouldn't have a say in keeping this golden goose of theirs correct? It used to be that some things are too big for anyone in 40k to change... Restraint is half the art in telling a story and setting a scene; the other is imagination, and they are nothing without one another.

 

I also lament the change in the Imperial calendar because I just wish they would have the courage to call it 41k; all this high-fantasy carousing about the galaxy uncovering earth-shattering developments doesn't feel like they belong in what was once 40k. And my curse is that I have a strongly formed idea of what 40k could have been.

You do know that the old Imperial dating system already had a system that accounted for possible time-wimey distortion?

It has a number code that declares how far from Terra's Standard Time the Message/Report/whatever was dated.

So they were already just estimates and could easily overlap. (Out of universe it was also an explanation on why dates in some fluff pieces/books/etc. were sometimes contradictory)

 

Stating "THE OLD TIMESYSTEM IS DEAD!" is kinda wrong. (...and is only based on the rumors and bad word of mouth we got in the first few weeks leading up to/at the start of 8th)

Guilliman, being the order-fetishist he is, wanted to collect a complete history of the Galaxy. He had the theory or the fear that over time it got so much out of proportion, we can't be sure it's actually 40.001.

To make it more comprehensive, the order-loving bureaucrat he is wanted to adjust the dates in all these wonky records, to make them fit into one timeline - and see if there really is a century or more we "jumped".

 

(And as many OLD CHERISHED bits of good old-school lore: This is based in real world history and how humanity and its calendars evolved.

As many other 7th & 8th edition and New-HH lore has the same depth, real-world-references and historic counterparts as old lore has. But you have to look for it and be open to it.

...but that's a topic for another thread.)

 

The Opening of the Rift obviously kicked up more Warpstorms than have been around for the last 10k years.

The Warp-caused Time Distortion Problems are a well known issue (and have been known as such for quite some time).

The only thing Guilliman and his Subordinates did is find a system that keeps their Crusade-specific records in order.

 

The thing you decide to point out is that specific major worlds now act as Time-Keeper for their area/sub-sector/sector.

But that has always been a thing. The Time stamp always took the nearest astropathic station as a reference. (Which never meant that this time is entirely correct)

The only thing that now changed is that it gained an ADDITIONAL level of detail, by encoding and incorporating which world/station was used as a reference for the time stamp (i.e. Vigilus).

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

On a related note (but cut off from the time debate, as it's not aimed at Special Issue)

 

I do get many, many of the critiques voiced in here.

On one hand, because I can relate to them - down to how certain issues are worded - from my own critique aimed at an entirely different Company and its main IP.

On the other hand, because I too wanted MORE lore blurbs and infos about the "Post 13Th Black Crusade"-Era.

 

But THIS White Dwarf Article IS EXACTLY THAT!

 

But like many other topics in our hobby, such info is only going around in short quotes or paraphrased and then picked out of context.(See: Some of the more snarky comments in this thread - which is understandable, on an emotional level)

Especially when it's "just" "minor" worldbuilding and not a huge lore revelation.

 

And that was one of the main reasons I wanted to share this info.

Because there IS new and interesting Lore that puts much of what happened after Gathering Storm into Perspective.

 

But to gather it all, you need to have a versatile group (like our Forum!).

Because there are a few new story blurbs in every Codex.

Then there is absolute mountains of new/re-newed Lore in Codices like the Adeptus Custodes and the Genestealer Cults.

Then there are Black Library publications of all kinds and flavours giving us a view into the "new age".

(Unpaid Advertisement: EVERYONE SHOULD READ AARON DEMBSKI-BOWDENS EMPEROR'S SPEARS NOVEL!!! - Really. It will give you renewed hope that the truly grimdark universe you fell in love with is still alive and prospering better than it has been the last decade!)

Then there are the few Warhammer Community Lore Articles and Short Stories.

Then there are White Dwarf Articles like this.

 

And to address the "This should have been in the Codex"-Issue voiced earlier in the thread:

Which one!?

Putting THIS specific info about the Indomitus Crusades into the White Dwarf was brilliant and necessary! (Because it's not concerning a single imperial faction but ALL of them)

Especially paired with the Blood Ravens stuff, gaining more interest for it.

 

Of course we will get more Lore on the Ynaari and how they affect Aeldari Society in a Codex. But not in one of the established three factions. That will be part of a full-on Ynaari Codex later down the line. And it would be dumb to spoil us already.

 

Same goes for Primaris Lore, about Ultima-Founding Chapters and Indomitus Crusade Veterans. We will get that in the almost inevitable Primaris-Codex.

The same goes for stuff like "What's up with the Lion?", "Is it the Wolftime yet!?" "Can the Primaris solve the Blood Rage?" And other Faction specific developments.

The Sororitas will surely get a polished and expanded lore section in their coming Codex.

I will bet my arse on all of it.

 

Addendum:

All of such Infos and Questions could and SHOULD not have been answered immediately with the release of 8th.

There need to be ways to go further.

And there need to be open ends - new and old ones - as there always have been.

Also there always has to be holes in records, for the whole "Your Dudes - Tell your own Story" Aspect.

 

We now know what the first Three Fleets -roughly- did and where they went.

And we got a new mystery regarding the Seventh. (Maybe something like the Terminus Decree and other stuff we will never truly know)

The other 6 are open to our own interpretations and stories, for now.

 

And that, in my eyes, was a great addition and amendment of the new lore.

Especially for it being "just" 6 pages in a White Dwarf. (ESPECIALLY when you see that it does not have a single picture except for the title, nor a single name-drop that acts as a "BUY THIS"-Ad)

Edited July 22, 2019 by RikuEru

[Huggtand]

And for some people 40k died after 2nd edition, for some after 3rd edition and so on and on. With each new edition there will be some who don't identify with it anymore but also way more who do. It's not like it's unique to 8th edition and its fluff development.

 

RIP  RT    (You are still the real 40k in my heart)

[Joeker]

Whether one likes the fluff or now, there is an important question of how hard it is to keep up with the fluff.

 

My personal preference for how fluff information should be disseminated (and it's no more than my preference)

 

1) Fluff that illuminates the history and character of a faction for the benefit of people playing that faction - codex

2) Fluff that illuminates the history and character of the Galaxy, but isn't very specific (or is far away in time from the 'present') - Goes in the rule book.

3) Fluff thats really only relevant to people playing a specific campaign - so details of units involved, minor engagements - Campaign source book

4) Novelizations of things, stories that revolve around a few 'special' characters, stories that are the creation of their authors (e.g. I don't want to see an Eisenhorne or a Cain campaign book) are in novels.

5) Galaxy wide, multi faction fluff - should be in WD, and maybe reprinted on Community a little later (and then further summarized in the next big rule book) so everyone can see - this should include results of campaigns, outlines of novels that are of 'non-local' significance, so that everyone knows what the final outcome of things was etc.

 

 

I doubt this is the correct hierarchy, but my general idea is that people should be able to get all the fluff that's relevant to their faction by owning the Rule Book, their Codex,  subscribing to WD, and picking up a few novels for the dramatic details. Maybe WD and Black Library could try to keep the fluff representation of all the factions a little more equal too... perhaps some more Xenos v xenos and Xenos v Chaos  etc....

[Panzer]

The thing is the story already advances faster than rulebooks or Codexes get released. So while they might get added to those eventually it doesn't help people who refuse to read novels in the meantime. Not to mention that GW sure as hell won't compromise their Black Library sales by putting all the juicy informations immediately into the Codexes.

 

 

I frankly find it ridiculous that there are some people who claim that GW doesn't progress the story quickly enough while there are lots and lots of people who don't know about many things that happened yet (I can't remember how often there are people who complain about the new fluff in 40k, especially Primaris, on the internet without knowing what they are talking about because they didn't bother reading the novels or the wikis etc). 40k is not a TV show you binge watch. It's a universe spread across multiple novels, campaign suplements and Codexes that requires time to evolve. Don't rush the story trying to get to an end. Learn about it and then play your games like you'd normally do. In the end it's just background knowledge for the game and if you don't play the game but are interested in the 40k universe you should read the novels (nobody I have ever heard of has read every Black Library novel that's been released so don't try to claim there is nothing for you left to read for you).

It's okay to look forward to how the meta story progresses and how some things are going to be fleshed out but that's something that takes time and will never truly "finish" so no point in rushing it. Be patient.

 

Note: the last paragraph isn't directed at any particular user. Just something I felt I had to say for a while now. If you feel like it applies to you then that's that.