July 2019 White Dwarf: Indomitus Crusade Lore!

[Rik Lightstar]

Also, one of the "features" of the 40k setting is that nobody knows everything that's going on, we as the hobbyists are in a similar situation. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

Rik

[Lexington]

What’s the endstate of the modern 40k story? Before it was the 13th Black Crusade being successful. That’s why it happened in 999.M41. What is the endstate now?

 

This has mostly got the right of it. Thinking about it, while 40K was primarily "a setting, not a story," it did have a sort of story - a set of global events that set a wider context within which everything else was situated. The boundaries were pretty clearly defined - Heresy (beginning), 31 - 40K (middle), End Times (end). You had all these creatures of myth, locked in narrative stasis since the first part, all just about ready to burst back out onto the scene and settle things at the conclusion. Call it Biblical, Tolkienien, basic mythic cycle or what haves you - it's a well-worn pattern we're all familiar with.

 

But, GeeDubs decided it was done with that, and rather than giving it the proper ending it clearly called for, they half-assed things. They broke all the glass and set off all the alarms, but that leaves money on the table, so you have a story that reached its logical narrative conclusion without actually delivering the goods. That doesn't make the Dark Imperium the "next step," though. It just means 40K's story ended badly. What it has now is a plot without a story or a context, and this grates at people. It should. 40K was fun, its ending was crap, and what's followed isn't ever going to be satisfying, because it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere, because it's not.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Lexington

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

What’s the endstate of the modern 40k story? Before it was the 13th Black Crusade being successful. That’s why it happened in 999.M41. What is the endstate now?

 

This has mostly got the right of it. Thinking about it, while 40K was primarily "a setting, not a story," it did have a sort of story - a set of global events that set a wider context within which everything else was situated. The boundaries were pretty clearly defined - Heresy (beginning), 31 - 40K (middle), End Times (end). You had all these creatures of myth, locked in narrative stasis since the first part, all just about ready to burst back out onto the scene and settle things at the conclusion. Call it Biblical, Tolkienien, basic mythic cycle or what haves you - it's a well-worn pattern we're all familiar with.

 

But, GeeDubs decided it was done with that, and rather than giving it the proper ending it clearly called for, they half-assed things. They broke all the glass and set off all the alarms, but that leaves money on the table, so you have a story that reached its logical narrative conclusion without actually delivering the goods. That doesn't make the Dark Imperium the "next step," though. It just means 40K's story ended badly. What it has now is a plot without a story or a context, and this grates at people. It should. 40K was fun, its ending was crap, and what's followed isn't ever going to be satisfying, because it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere, because it's not.

 

 

 

How has 40K ended? It's still 40-od thousand years in the future. The Husk of an Emperor still sits on the Golden Throne. Mankind's enemies still have the Imperium by the throat.... we simply have some changes to the board (the Great Rift, etc.) and some new pieces (Primaris Marines, etc.). Sure, it all could have been told better, but none of this ends the 40Kverse by any stretch. Let's not just complain ( not pointing any fingers at you Brother Lexington) and rail. State your position brothers and sisters and defend it with some evidence.

 

When 8th Ed. first came out, I was a bit "meh" about the changes in lore and not overly impressed with the way the story was written, but at no point did 40K look like it was at "the end" or in a state of decline. On the bright side I thought, "Well.... at least things have moved forward a few inches and we're not playing the same two minutes to midnight like galactic Groundhog Day

 

We've got some new problems to deal with, new  characters and character types, and a big ol' galactic rift, effectively creating Imperium Secundus (for real this time). Surely, that's not all bad

Edited July 23, 2019 by Brother Lunkhead

[MegaVolt87]

I hate to say it, but no matter what happens in Dark Imperium it really doesn't have to go anywhere even if Primarchs return. It can be the same 10 minutes to midnight or victory like the prior setting ending at the eve of the 13th Black Crusade. There need not be an end point at all. The setting is going to have to keep going round and round, stalemates otherwise it will just end completely one way or another. AoS has a better lore scape to get real crazy than 40k, even though I love the Legends era of Warhammer. I got 40k buddies and guys out for a while reading all the new AoS stuff than the new 40k lore. Thats pretty telling IMO. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[Marshal Rohr]

Lexington pretty decisively laid out his position. There is no oncoming train that will crumble the Imperium. There is no death by a thousand cuts the will drain the Imperium. All those event happened, and now we are after the fact with no clear climax and denouement on the horizon. ADB said in his interview that the Imperium Nihilus is what would happen if Chaos won. The very first piece of lore published about the Imperium Nihilus (Vigilus) did not present a new endstate, but rather listed off into a nebulous conclusion. As I said earlier, until the endstate is clearly defined, the stakes and stakeholders are laid out - 40k has no purpose beyond what Observer pointed to, the selling of models. That’s not a model that will last. I said it before in another thread but ‘Sauron is evil and wants to take over the world because Tolkien had to pay the mortgage’ may be the reason he made the books, but that’s an excuse and not a good one. It’s the very reason they had to change the setting in Rogue Trader to include Abaddon, the Chaos Victory, the Tyranid invasions, and flesh that out over third and fourth. Rogue Trader had no purpose beyond the setting of a wargame, 40k can limp by as an IP with that for now, but it is limping and it is weak. The most common thing you hear on social media is ‘love the new edition, the lore could be better’. It was the same complaint people had with the other game and you an see how it has benefitted from providing the deeper context to the universe. It’s a work in progress over there, 40k can’t afford to be a work in progress. If the Imperium Nihilus is the denouement of what happens after chaos wins, then that has a shelf life before it grows old quickly. Edited July 24, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Marshal Rohr]

I hate to say it, but no matter what happens in Dark Imperium it really doesn't have to go anywhere even if Primarchs return. It can be the same 10 minutes to midnight or victory like the prior setting ending at the eve of the 13th Black Crusade. There need not be an end point at all. The setting is going to have to keep going round and round, stalemates otherwise it will just end completely one way or another. AoS has a better lore scape to get real crazy than 40k, even though I love the Legends era of Warhammer. I got 40k buddies and guys out for a while reading all the new AoS stuff than the new 40k lore. Thats pretty telling IMO.

Except you illustrate the problem with your own point. What’s the new Black Crusade? What is the big thing that symbolizes midnight? Who is causing it? Where is it happening? What does the world look like when it happens? You must have that or you have nothing. These aren’t questions I’m arbitrarily asking. These are questions authors have to answer to write books. Ever seen a movie you just didn’t quite connect with? You don’t like it and you don’t know why? It’s because stories must have certain things to be engaging and invite the reader/viewer in, and the movie was missing it. You can’t quantify and may not know what ‘the hero at the mercy of the villain’ is, but your brain does and it has to be there in some capacity. These tropes and elements are the collective tissue of story telling, and even frozen and static settings must have them.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[MegaVolt87]

 

I hate to say it, but no matter what happens in Dark Imperium it really doesn't have to go anywhere even if Primarchs return. It can be the same 10 minutes to midnight or victory like the prior setting ending at the eve of the 13th Black Crusade. There need not be an end point at all. The setting is going to have to keep going round and round, stalemates otherwise it will just end completely one way or another. AoS has a better lore scape to get real crazy than 40k, even though I love the Legends era of Warhammer. I got 40k buddies and guys out for a while reading all the new AoS stuff than the new 40k lore. Thats pretty telling IMO.

Except you illustrate the problem with your own point. What’s the new Black Crusade? What is the big thing that symbolizes midnight? Who is causing it? Where is it happening? What does the world look like when it happens? You must have that or you have nothing. These aren’t questions I’m arbitrarily asking. These are questions authors have to answer to write books. Ever seen a movie you just didn’t quite connect with? You don’t like it and you don’t know why? It’s because stories must have certain things to be engaging and invite the reader/viewer in, and the movie was missing it. You can’t quantify and may not know what ‘the hero at the mercy of the villain’ is, but your brain does and it has to be there in some capacity. These tropes and elements are the collective tissue of story telling, and even frozen and static settings must have them.

 

 

I honestly don't know how to answer that properly, but I can say for sure the new Dark Imperium stuff feels like a hot mess in comparison to AoS who can get away with doing that in their setting. I don't feel much excitement over much dark Imperium stuff, though I think what has been implemented could definitely be improving on like primaris introduction/integration etc, what this new info with indomni crussade etc. One example, Vigilus was the big thing, I actually would have been fine with the Vengful Spirit being destroyed, except I would have wanted to see an Abaddon duel with RG and Ultramarine + sucessor boarding action, Vengful at 100% operational, fully manned, with legionaries etc. That would be an amazing primarch moment for 40k and a nice win for the Imperium post 13th black crusade. Instead we got an anemic end to that arc, with a short bit about apparently another planet killer sent by Abby to make it Alderan 2.0. Yawn. 

[Dagoth Ur]

 

*snip*

Except you illustrate the problem with your own point. What’s the new Black Crusade? What is the big thing that symbolizes midnight? Who is causing it? Where is it happening? What does the world look like when it happens? You must have that or you have nothing. These aren’t questions I’m arbitrarily asking.

 

These questions are mostly answered already. Midnight is, again, dependant on who you ask, this is a setting with several factions after all and most of them are facing existential threats in one way or another. The Imperium's midnight is the crumbling of their stellar empire, humanity falling beneath the sway of dark gods and the predations of the alien, as well as the death of the emperor; nothing new here. The Eldar's collective midnight, save maybe the Harlequins, is their demise at the hands of Slaanesh. The Necron's hypothetical midnight is never being able to return to their fleshy bodies or a facsimile thereof. The running theme here is that existence ends (or in the case of the Necrons and perhaps Chaos enslaved humans becomes something that is more prison than survival). For the sake of simplicity, let's roll with a Human/Imperial viewpoint. Classically, this would mean that a ultimate victory for Chaos (Chaos devouring reality, destroying the Anathema and returning to some version of the Great Game) is the bell that heralds the ultimate midnight, but it could also include the Tyranids devouring everything and leaving a cold, dead galaxy behind themselves.

True Midnight, metaphorically speaking here, is when the many storms finally snuff out the remaining candles of the setting. This is not Ragnarök where Baldr's death unleashes the winter to end all winters which then results in the cyclical rebirth of the world; this is a situation where true midnight is symbolized by silence. When the last bolter is fired, the last prayer said. When the Emperor vanishes into the warp with one final scream. When humanity is rendered to something even worse than during the age of strife.

We already have the end spelled out for all of mankind. To quote the Afterword of Master of Mankind: "Humanity has lost." (Emphasise mine). Midnight is when it peters out, when the dead man walking finally cannot take another step. Victory is impossible, but everyone drags on and tries to change the course that is written and visible because, much like an animal thrashing in a trap, it is impossible to just stay still. The beginning of the narrative is the fall from grace, the middle is the struggle and the finale is the silence of damnation. There is nothing after midnight. That is where the narrative ends. We do not have one specific point in time that dictates when exactly that has to happen or in what manner it will come. After all, there is still the idea that the Emperor's physical death might herald his rebirth. Would that be enough to save humanity? Maybe, but probably not. People talk like the 13th Black Crusade was undeniably confirmed to herald such, but the 13th Black Crusade did not go to plan. After all, it was meant to cut the red path towards Terra, when clearly whatever botched up trigonometry Abaddon used resulted in it tearing a path with 90 degrees off course. The circumstances have changed, but the end is still coming. We do not know how, but we do not need to know that in order to know that it will come.

In regards to ADB's explanation concerning Imperium Nihilus; are people ignoring here that stuff in the Dark Imperium is getting worse by the day. Spear of the Emperor shows this quite well, the chapter is dying, these are its last days. There is no help, everyone is eeking out the last of their miserable existence and the lamps are going out even quicker than on the other side. Everything is dying, the silence just has not fully settled yet. We'll just never see the point where the aftermath of a fully chaotic victory is visible, because money. The narrative has a beginning, middle and end. It's just forever stuck in the middle because it cannot progress to its logical and set conclusion without neccessitating a new story and narrative.

I am not saying whatever came off Guilliman's return is good. Hell, personally I would have written it a thousand different ways. I am arguing against this idea that the narrative somehow has ended, when a simple 30 minute narratology analysis shows that it clearly has not; anyone who has sat in a literary introduction class can see as much. The setting isn't dead, it hasn't reached that narrative point to be such. It might be dead to you (General you here, not specifically you) because it has progressed in a way that you do not find enjoyable anymore, but that is a matter worlds removed from saying that the narrative is gone and dead.

The idea that GW's IP is limping and weak, when it has never done better financially (thus securing its future and production for years, maybe decades to come) is so far beyond the comprehension of my mind it might as well be Lovecraftian. The company practically prints dosh. It secures merchandise and partner products left, right and center (Games, Boardgames, Bandai collab, potential TV tie in), it is one of the more profitable companies in the UK. There is finally a bigger influx of new blood. This is all because the IP is strong and investible in. The story contained within the IP might not be Dostoevskij levels of intrique and quality, and there are enough analysis and essays to back that up, but it is popular enough to keep the train rolling. As long as GW makes money off 40k the way it does, 40k will keep around existing and evolving into whatever shape will continue feeding each worker that is part of the company and enriching the shareholders. That is the singular imperative since it is, again, an IP and a product; marketing to their niche is the single working model there exists and it is clearly working. GW does not have to do anything beyond chasing the pound in whatever manner they find agreeable. Clearly the current progression has not struck them as so insulting towards their artistic integrity that they would jump ship.

[Knight of the Raven]

Since we're waving the Indomitus Crusade in particular goodbye and focusing on the new lore in general instead, I'll give my two kopeks.

There's only one—count it, one—thing that interests me about Guilliman's return. Vostroya.

The reason the Vostroyan Firstborn exist in the first place is to make up for their ruling Techtriarchs deciding their population would be better used making weapons in their factories than using them against the Traitor Legions during the Horus Heresy.

Roboute Guilliman—reasonable, understanding, merciful Guilliman—was entirely willing to scour the planet clean of life when he learned about their choice during the Great Scouring. Perhaps because he realized they'd remained loyal during the conflict, he relented and decreed that all Vostroyan families would give their firstborn child to the newly-created Imperial Guard as punishment for their breach of duty, until he or the Emperor himself deemed their debt paid.

And, well, look who's back after ten thousand years. And look who's still around after those ten thousand years, never faltering in their loyalty to the Emperor and His Imperium.

Sadly, I fully expect the Design Studio never to delve into such a development or worse, to screw the pooch like only they can.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Knight of the Raven

[Panzer]

Since we're waving the Indomitus Crusade in particular goodbye and focusing on the new lore in general instead, I'll give my two kopeks.

 

There's only one—count it, one—thing that interests me about Guilliman's return. Vostroya.

 

The reason the Vostroyan Firstborn exist in the first place is to make up for their ruling Techtriarchs deciding their population would be better used making weapons in their factories than using them against the Traitor Legions during the Horus Heresy.

 

Roboute Guilliman—reasonable, understanding, merciful Guilliman—was entirely willing to scour the planet clean of life when he learned about their choice during the Great Scouring. Perhaps because he realized they'd remained loyal during the conflict, he relented and decreed that all Vostroyan families would give their firstborn child to the newly-created Imperial Guard as punishment for their breach of duty, until he or the Emperor himself deemed their debt paid.

 

And, well, look who's back after ten thousand years. And look who's still around after those ten thousand years, never faltering in their loyalty to the Emperor and His Imperium.

 

Sadly, I fully expect the Design Studio never to delve into such a development or worse, to screw the pooch like only they can.

 

Those are probably pretty low on his huge bucket lists of things to fix after 10k years since they are after all still pretty useful to the Imperium the way they are currently. ^^

[RikuEru]

 

I hate to say it, but no matter what happens in Dark Imperium it really doesn't have to go anywhere even if Primarchs return. It can be the same 10 minutes to midnight or victory like the prior setting ending at the eve of the 13th Black Crusade. There need not be an end point at all. The setting is going to have to keep going round and round, stalemates otherwise it will just end completely one way or another. AoS has a better lore scape to get real crazy than 40k, even though I love the Legends era of Warhammer. I got 40k buddies and guys out for a while reading all the new AoS stuff than the new 40k lore. Thats pretty telling IMO.

Except you illustrate the problem with your own point. What’s the new Black Crusade? What is the big thing that symbolizes midnight? Who is causing it? Where is it happening? What does the world look like when it happens? You must have that or you have nothing.

And if you would actually read "new fluff", you would know the answers to these questions. Because they are still the same, they all just ticked a few steps forward to twelve o'clock aswell.

 

Chaos has split the Imperium and the darker side is now besieged by Chaos Forces in full (among other things). (As seen in: Vigilus, Emperor's Spears Novel, etc.)

Mortarion brought Plague Planets into Real-Space and wages his personal war of Vendetta against Guilliman and his homeworld.

Angron is rumored to be back to wage war on Armageddon. (Or is it just Khorne Demons/Cults preparing his return?)

Fulgrim is meandering through the Galaxy once more, killing as he likes.

Magnus brought the Planet of Sorcerors into the Prospero System (as part of the Warzone: Fenris shenanigans), tried to stop Guilliman on Luna and is surely plotting something.

Fabius Bile is still working on his New Man.

Ahriman now knows the Rubricae could be saved and revived, but he needs the power the Ynaari possess for that.

Abbadon has (partially) succeeded with his 13 consecutive plans of creating the Rift and while he reaps the imperium Nihilus side, he still wants to aim for Terra.

 

The Tyranids are still the ever present Damocles' Sword looming over the Galaxy's Neck they have always been - so much so that Chaos has recognized them as a danger to their goals. And the Genestealer Cults have become their fully fleshed out "scouts", making the problem even worse (or rather: We just know more abput that problem now, thanks to the Codex).

 

The T'au are expanding their "benevolent" Empire further and further. They "lost" a full sphere of expansion, but just sent out the Fifth immediately after. They still hold fast to their endgoal of becoming a galaxy spanning empire themselves.

 

The Necrons? Nothing changed for the Necrons in its essence. Awaken more worlds, kill the living (and stop the Tyranids from eating them) and maybe find a way to restoee their own lifes.

 

Sure, the Aeldari Factions are still much the same.

The Eldar still fear they might die out, before the "new hope" of the ynaari might come to fruition in full. They still plot their secret plans to guide the galaxy into the right direction here and there.

The Dark Eldar still love their debauchery and internal wars, taking slaves from weakened worlds all over the galaxy and plotting their secret plans of their own.

Harlequins are Harlequins, were Harlequins and forever will be Harlequins. Can't you hear them laughing?

Sure, the Ynaari haven't seen that much expansion and spotlight game-wise, even tho they are the new hotness for the Aeldari's Future - the almost literal shimmer of hope in a dark universe, atleast to them.

But they got a novel series and surely will see more spotlight in a future release window.

 

Stating the Setting/Story has died or ended is objectively false.

Same goes for stating there is no end goal, no terms of condition for "The End", in whatever form brought by whoever - it is also false.

 

++++++++++++++++

 

This is no longer directly aimed at Marshall Rohr, but those that fell out of love with 40k:

 

IF it ended FOR YOU, on a PERSONAL level of preference, that's a problem you have to deal with sadly. Not all hobbies last a lifetime, not every thing you cherish stays the way you like forever.

To Quote a certain 'Warchief': "Times change."

 

 

But DO NOT fall into the habit of actually going into a topic/discussion/blog of something you are not interested in or actively dislike (identifiable by its title!), just to bash on other people liking it, stating half-truths and falsehoods, disregarding what others put forward (for or against it!), reducing bits of it to sarcastic memes, derailing threads and always regurgitating the same phrases stating your dislike...

THAT will surely not be a benefit to the Community (both B&C specifically and the Hobby as a whole), nor your own personal growth and mental health.

 

It will also influence how others percieve the topic at hand - and it's something that's hard to get rid off, when it comes to the public mind.

(Example: Remember the "Memes" and Rumors before 8th Edition came, about the 40k-Universe changing to be just being worlds/planes of existence in marbles, similiar but worse than AoS, that only get to fight each other once they clash, symbolizing the "Great Game" of the (Chaos) Gods? I don't know how much that one went around here and in the english speaking communities... but it is still something I hear regurgitated in stores around here from time to time.)

Additionally it will also change how people percieve you. We are a big forum, but still names become familiar.

We all know what Ishagu likes. Or what Sete likes and desperately wants. Or what Captain Semper does in the summer.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it would be good to take a step back. Stay clear of stuff you dislike. Actively enjoy the parts of the Hobby/Universe you do like - and let others do the same.

 

But that's those people's problem, not mine.

I surely won't start hunting down every Thousand Sons player and make them pay for their wrongdoings... ;D

[MegaVolt87]

@RikuEru, yes those are good arcs you mentioned but the deeper I seem to go I don't see them as being executed as well or cleanly as past narratives in the older setting of 40k. Terra and the Sol seems more secure than ever after the khorneate incursion/ indomni crussade. At a minimum I would expect the warp defences a bit more compromised, sporadic incursions, increased cultist activity, more heavy handed Custodes etc. Seems to be business as usual though for Sol and Terra as far as I can tell, unless I likely missed something ? RG had the head of the navigator houses flogged, could herald a new caste of psykers/ faction, who knows. Quantity of cool arcs mean nothing if they are poorly executed/ realized. 

[RikuEru]

@RikuEru, yes those are good arcs you mentioned but the deeper I seem to go I don't see them as being executed as well or cleanly as past narratives in the older setting of 40k. Terra and the Sol seems more secure than ever after the khorneate incursion/ indomni crussade. At a minimum I would expect the warp defences a bit more compromised, sporadic incursions, increased cultist activity, more heavy handed Custodes etc. Seems to be business as usual though for Sol and Terra as far as I can tell, unless I likely missed something ? RG had the head of the navigator houses flogged, could herald a new caste of psykers/ faction, who knows. Quantity of cool arcs mean nothing if they are poorly executed/ realized.

We didn't get much of Terra itself before, did we?

But I get what you mean. I think some of them are just random notes, as many others before, that can be used and explored in fanmade content and campaigns.

Others may end uo being story hooks for official novels and campaigns and other stuff.

 

Regarding your interest for Terra specifically - We have now two novel series happening on Terra!

Vaults of Terra (Carrion Throne and Hollow Mountain)

And Watchers of the Throne (The Emperor's Legion)

I haven't been able to read them (still waiting on my bookpile), but they are highly regarded by others.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I hate to say it, but no matter what happens in Dark Imperium it really doesn't have to go anywhere even if Primarchs return. It can be the same 10 minutes to midnight or victory like the prior setting ending at the eve of the 13th Black Crusade. There need not be an end point at all. The setting is going to have to keep going round and round, stalemates otherwise it will just end completely one way or another. AoS has a better lore scape to get real crazy than 40k, even though I love the Legends era of Warhammer. I got 40k buddies and guys out for a while reading all the new AoS stuff than the new 40k lore. Thats pretty telling IMO.

Except you illustrate the problem with your own point. What’s the new Black Crusade? What is the big thing that symbolizes midnight? Who is causing it? Where is it happening? What does the world look like when it happens? You must have that or you have nothing.

And if you would actually read "new fluff", you would know the answers to these questions. Because they are still the same, they all just ticked a few steps forward to twelve o'clock aswell.

 

Chaos has split the Imperium and the darker side is now besieged by Chaos Forces in full (among other things). (As seen in: Vigilus, Emperor's Spears Novel, etc.)

Mortarion brought Plague Planets into Real-Space and wages his personal war of Vendetta against Guilliman and his homeworld.

Angron is rumored to be back to wage war on Armageddon. (Or is it just Khorne Demons/Cults preparing his return?)

Fulgrim is meandering through the Galaxy once more, killing as he likes.

Magnus brought the Planet of Sorcerors into the Prospero System (as part of the Warzone: Fenris shenanigans), tried to stop Guilliman on Luna and is surely plotting something.

Fabius Bile is still working on his New Man.

Ahriman now knows the Rubricae could be saved and revived, but he needs the power the Ynaari possess for that.

Abbadon has (partially) succeeded with his 13 consecutive plans of creating the Rift and while he reaps the imperium Nihilus side, he still wants to aim for Terra.

 

The Tyranids are still the ever present Damocles' Sword looming over the Galaxy's Neck they have always been - so much so that Chaos has recognized them as a danger to their goals. And the Genestealer Cults have become their fully fleshed out "scouts", making the problem even worse (or rather: We just know more abput that problem now, thanks to the Codex).

 

The T'au are expanding their "benevolent" Empire further and further. They "lost" a full sphere of expansion, but just sent out the Fifth immediately after. They still hold fast to their endgoal of becoming a galaxy spanning empire themselves.

 

The Necrons? Nothing changed for the Necrons in its essence. Awaken more worlds, kill the living (and stop the Tyranids from eating them) and maybe find a way to restoee their own lifes.

 

Sure, the Aeldari Factions are still much the same.

The Eldar still fear they might die out, before the "new hope" of the ynaari might come to fruition in full. They still plot their secret plans to guide the galaxy into the right direction here and there.

The Dark Eldar still love their debauchery and internal wars, taking slaves from weakened worlds all over the galaxy and plotting their secret plans of their own.

Harlequins are Harlequins, were Harlequins and forever will be Harlequins. Can't you hear them laughing?

Sure, the Ynaari haven't seen that much expansion and spotlight game-wise, even tho they are the new hotness for the Aeldari's Future - the almost literal shimmer of hope in a dark universe, atleast to them.

But they got a novel series and surely will see more spotlight in a future release window.

 

Stating the Setting/Story has died or ended is objectively false.

Same goes for stating there is no end goal, no terms of condition for "The End", in whatever form brought by whoever - it is also false.

 

++++++++++++++++

 

This is no longer directly aimed at Marshall Rohr, but those that fell out of love with 40k:

 

IF it ended FOR YOU, on a PERSONAL level of preference, that's a problem you have to deal with sadly. Not all hobbies last a lifetime, not every thing you cherish stays the way you like forever.

To Quote a certain 'Warchief': "Times change."

 

 

But DO NOT fall into the habit of actually going into a topic/discussion/blog of something you are not interested in or actively dislike (identifiable by its title!), just to bash on other people liking it, stating half-truths and falsehoods, disregarding what others put forward (for or against it!), reducing bits of it to sarcastic memes, derailing threads and always regurgitating the same phrases stating your dislike...

THAT will surely not be a benefit to the Community (both B&C specifically and the Hobby as a whole), nor your own personal growth and mental health.

 

It will also influence how others percieve the topic at hand - and it's something that's hard to get rid off, when it comes to the public mind.

(Example: Remember the "Memes" and Rumors before 8th Edition came, about the 40k-Universe changing to be just being worlds/planes of existence in marbles, similiar but worse than AoS, that only get to fight each other once they clash, symbolizing the "Great Game" of the (Chaos) Gods? I don't know how much that one went around here and in the english speaking communities... but it is still something I hear regurgitated in stores around here from time to time.)

Additionally it will also change how people percieve you. We are a big forum, but still names become familiar.

We all know what Ishagu likes. Or what Sete likes and desperately wants. Or what Captain Semper does in the summer.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it would be good to take a step back. Stay clear of stuff you dislike. Actively enjoy the parts of the Hobby/Universe you do like - and let others do the same.

 

But that's those people's problem, not mine.

I surely won't start hunting down every Thousand Sons player and make them pay for their wrongdoings... ;D

People always say ‘take a step back if you don’t like it’ and maybe I missed a post by someone but no one is saying they fell out of love with with 40k. No one has said this article sucks and they hate it. What people are saying is that 40k needs a lot of work on the post-Rift plotline to bring back the ‘two minutes to midnight’ tension. This article was a step in the right direction, like Vigilus was a step in the right direction, like the Realmgate Wars were a step in the right direction, like the Rift was a step in the right direction. 40k is still missing a large amount of context and depth in the new setting. The Company is doing better than ever before. It is making good decisions. Being critical of where it is falling flat isn’t an indictment of what is good. It’s not an absolute or zero-sum scenario. In 2nd through 4th 40k peaked in the lore department, then went downhill and is now climbing back up a mountain. Identifying what made the last golden age so good and saying they need to emulate, not clone, that time period is what is going on here. Mark Bedford uses the example of cake in his podcast. We used to have cake. Now we can see Games Workshop has all the ingredients on the table to make better cake, and cookies, and those little strawberry jam things. It just isn’t cooking right now. Edited July 24, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Lord Marshal]

Since we're waving the Indomitus Crusade in particular goodbye and focusing on the new lore in general instead, I'll give my two kopeks.

 

There's only one—count it, one—thing that interests me about Guilliman's return. Vostroya.

 

The reason the Vostroyan Firstborn exist in the first place is to make up for their ruling Techtriarchs deciding their population would be better used making weapons in their factories than using them against the Traitor Legions during the Horus Heresy.

 

Roboute Guilliman—reasonable, understanding, merciful Guilliman—was entirely willing to scour the planet clean of life when he learned about their choice during the Great Scouring. Perhaps because he realized they'd remained loyal during the conflict, he relented and decreed that all Vostroyan families would give their firstborn child to the newly-created Imperial Guard as punishment for their breach of duty, until he or the Emperor himself deemed their debt paid.

 

And, well, look who's back after ten thousand years. And look who's still around after those ten thousand years, never faltering in their loyalty to the Emperor and His Imperium.

 

Sadly, I fully expect the Design Studio never to delve into such a development or worse, to screw the pooch like only they can.

 

Imperial Guard featuring in a major way after Gathering Storm.

 

That's a good joke.

[Bat33.1]

I had a big ol wall of text but i cant be bothered. Guilliman return was poorly handled and ill just finish here. Need to take care of my blood pressure. Not getting any younger here ;)

You sound like Sigismund waiting for Abaddon to arrive ;)

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere, but the first hour on the Warhammer TV Twitch channel tomorrow is dedicated to fleets of the Indomitus Crusade.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/warhammer

[Blindhamster]

Last I checked.. chaos haven't taken terra. They're closer, but the goal hasn't changed...

[b1soul]

 

40K was primarily "a setting, not a story," 

 

 

40K has always been both. The macro-story progression has just been rather glacial. Guilliman's return was a welcome jolt to the system 

[Prot]

I am a sci fi simpleton. I actually really enjoy the Indomitus fiction....in fact nearly all of it including Blood of Iax.

 

Many years ago I started Ultramarines because they felt flexible, and over time I liked playing a chapter that so many people disliked for such (in my opinion) silly reasons. But then Guilliman came back and I think his plight especially encapsulates the dire situation that the entire Imperium is in. The situation is incredibly screwed up and we get to experience this through the (super human) fresh eyes of some mega-general that just woke up to find the kids threw a party while he was gone; the house burned down and the dog ran away.

 

I think the character development as Guilliman absorbs all of this is fantastic. He is wracked with guilt, his dad really seems to have some really bad ideas. Guilliman not only has to absorb this intergalactic disaster, but also push back against the enemies at the gate while pretending he still thoroughly believes in the Emperor’s dream as they all did 10 thousand years ago.

 

Indomitus gives us a false hope by giving the Imperium a bright beacon in Guilliman but it only serves to further show us how screwed up the whole thing really is. You’ve got chaos pressing home an advantage. Religion is still an issue. You’ve got a mad scientist that you need but he’s half cocked and has political ambitions. Your ‘new’ super warriors are often at odds with the old. The political situation is a mess of bureaucratic nurgling doo-doo. You have to face your own deamons... you were wrong about many things, and your creator saw you only as a means to an end. A tool.

 

What’s not to love about this? I love it and for me, most importantly, it’s added some depth to some boring characters while spicing up others.... That includes Mort, Magnus, Abaddon, Yyvraine, Cawl, SoS, Custodes ( they were a background wallpaper until now) and of course Guilliman to name a few.

 

My only issue is I feel like some of the key moments, and players have been glossed over in an attempt to advance storylines. But otherwise I’m very fine with the route taken these past few years especially when I compare it to the previous 15.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Prot

[USNCenturion]

They opened up their story to fit in more models and factions and lore, as opposed to being hemmed in by a turn of the millennium date.

 

The alternative was to end the galaxy and tell everybody their toys they spent time and treasure on were no longer of use in the lore. Unless they just made a brand new setting from scratch and took years and years to fill in the new lore for the old armies. This should sound familiar by the way...

 

Tyranids are the end all for the galaxy. Make that your midnight if midnight is what you need. They’ll either eat the galaxy or they’ll be stopped and everyone will hate that ending too.

[Panzer]

As already got said a few times, midnight is still the same as it was before. It just didn't come to happen like everyone expected (by Abaddon winning the 13th Black Crusade). It will get there sooner than later though even if it's unlikely for the story to actually advance so far unless people actually want an AoS like universe reset.

 

Here's part of Sanguinius' prophecy I mentioned before as it's written in the novel Dante:

 

Shadows swirled and parted. The vision lost its disguise of metaphor, and I looked upon a scene that may be a true echo of the future. I saw my father. Ruined. Broken. I knew it was Him, though His body was little more than a corpse, for I could feel His mind. His power was much reduced in potency, and I could feel no sense of consciousness there, merely raging, ungoverned power that threatened to obliterate my sleeping mind. This living corpse of my father was trapped in machinery that fed His soul essence of others. I do not know if I should commit this to paper, even in my private writings. He cannot ever know of this fate, if He does not already. Or is He aware, and makes this choice between that life in death and the utter destruction of mankind? If so, my respect for my father grows.
 

As the guns of the Warmaster pound at the walls of the Palace, perhaps this miserable reality is the best that can be hoped for. Perhaps this is what I must die to ensure.

The hunger came for my father. The puppets of the Dark Gods clashed with the hunger for the pleasure of killing Him. There was a warrior in gold before the throne, surrounded by my father’s Custodians and other heroes who, mighty though they were, paled next to the lords of our days. There they fought, and there they died. The vision ended as the devourer of flesh and the devourers of souls closed in on my lord and creator. There was despair only, despair and more despair. But before I woke something more. I sensed stirring in the warp, and the touch of my father, His mind made anew, and the knowledge that all might be well.

As I am fated to, so too did this golden warrior lay down his life to protect my father. The precious seconds he bought with his blood could change everything, or they could change nothing. Maybe the vision is false. I pray the future is mutable, and so it has proved in the past. All but the moment that draws near, the reckoning when I must face my brother. That I cannot avoid.
 

I do not know who this golden warrior was. He appeared similar to my Herald, and I saw my own face depicted upon his mask, but he was not me, and he wore a form of armour I do not know. It is certain that he was one of my sons, and whether his sacrifice will prove to be in vain or not, I know this: that he was a noble warrior, true and purer than any of his age, and I love him for that, for it means that my works for the Emperor, at least, have not been undertaken in vain, and that my unavoidable death might also prove fruitful.

Edited July 28, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Slave to Darkness]

 

I disagree. The 40k setting hasn’t felt this alive in years and years. It had grown stale with endless iterations of the same stuff. Now there is finally something new happening.

 

I dont see it tbh, its the same old 40k 'all is doom and gloom' but with bigger marines.

[Lord Marshal]

It definitely felt more alive as a 'setting' prior. The reason for this is that because the storyline didn't really advance, the narrative didn't feel microscopically focused on the big movers and shakers - in this case, Guilliman and Abbadon - because there can only be so many big, moving moments that explicitly shunt the story forward, and these thus far have focused on a very small cast of characters.

 

And no, Guilliman's Big Road Trip doesn't make the setting feel big just because he's taking in all these tourist spots.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Lord Marshal

[Lexington]

Last I checked.. chaos haven't taken terra. They're closer, but the goal hasn't changed...

 

The goal hasn't changed, no, but the tension's all gone. Narratives like 40K's work on the same principles as simple machines. A mousetrap that stops halfway through its arc isn't going to catch any mice. A roller coaster that halts after that first big drop isn't on to an interesting new phase - it's broken. Crews get called, and hopefully no one's lost any feet or family members, but either way the ride is still over.

 

Calling 40K "over" is clearly raising people's hackles, but I dunno what else to call it when a story burns through all the (sometimes literally planet-sized) signifiers of its conclusion and deflates all of the tensions that've been built up over twenty-odd years, then wants to keep shuffling on lifelessly like it's no big deal.