Today in Titanicus I...

[Mandragola]

To be honest you’re almost always better off taking two maniples if you can. The extra Seniores is great to have

 

That said, this isn’t going to always be possible, and that’s ok. If you’re running an Extermigus maniple or a Warmaster the chances are that two maniples won’t work. That doesn’t seem to mean those are bad options though.

[General Zodd]

In general? Yes, more Princeps Senioris is better, but obviously that implies you can fit in at least 6 titans, which generally means lighter titans as others have said. Lighter titans can be deleted quicker, so early activation advantages (if you have one) can be lost if you’re not careful. The other balance is access to stratagems that affect an entire maniple, like Fureans’ Offensive Surge, if you’re planning on taking that, you will want to maximise it by taking a maximum size maniple, which probably won’t leave space for a second unless you’re playing bigger games.

[Squike]

I would say 2 maniples is better, but I think it depends on the points you are playing. If two maniples means you have to have the cheapest weapons on every titans and no room for any upgrades I think you would be better off taking less better equipped titans that are more effective.

[Mandragola]

Not every two-maniple build is better than every one-maniple build. It’s definitely an advantage though, if it doesn’t alter the actual engines you have. If you’re fielding two reavers and four hounds, you’re better off running two maniples so both reavers can br a seniores than running a full maniple and a reinforcement.

 

So basically it’s a factor to take into account, among many others. Fureans do certainly want to run a single maniple for offensive surge, but actually few other Legios have strats tied to a single maniple like that. Mortis get to move all their titans with March of the Dwad, regardless of what maniple they’re in, for example. So Fureans might tend to go for somewhat heavier maniples at higher points values, to allow that to happen. And when a Fureans Extermigus maniple pops offensive surge, it won’t mind that these only one seniores in the list, as a big chunk of the other team is likely to cease to exist.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The one that went on to win was a Gryphonicus list with a Warbringer and two hounds, then three Reavers in an Extergimus Maniple. I played it in my second game and got

absolutely steamrolled. Lost all Titans bar one injured Warhound and didn’t even structurally compromise a single enemy Titan. Those Reavers were brutal.

 

In fairness to my opponent, I made some bad choices in deployment, so my Titans were bunched up and blocking each other’s movement, which meant I was appearing piecemeal and getting killed one at a time, so wasn’t able to focus my fire to down a Titan. I also lost maybe five weapons of the course of the game, so the Titans who were in range/LoS were pretty toothless.

 

Other than that, it was mainly Ferrox, Venator and Axiom, with Knight support. General Zodd brought his Warlord and four Warhounds, who ended up placing second.

 

A friend of mine brought eight Audax Hounds with full Ursus Claws. He ended up placing 4th.

 

Looking forward to the next event, which will potentially be a more narrative affair. I’ve got some Damicium Titans on the painting table for that.

 

Dallo

I'm glad you guys had fun, and not to dunk on what seems a pretty tenuous event with the covid drop outs, but the goonhammer write up of it left me feeling very confused.

 

I guess the first question to ask was if it was an actual tournament? They referred to it as one constantly, but it really...couldn't be, right? Not with:

 

-variable points band (1250-1750)

-no set missions; people could choose whatever

-ability to change your list game to game

 

You can't measure skill (the point of a tournament) if everyone is off playing a different mission, changing lists and playing at different points.

 

I also read that Bair just took a ton of points in mutations. Regardless if it was a narrative event or a tournament, does it not behoove people to actually model some representation of the mutations? His warhounds have more points in mutations than guns; imagine proxying all the weapons on your titans at an event or tournament with the excuse "well my titan was already finished and I didn't want to do any more work".

 

Idk the article was extremely odd. They have quotes like:

 

"This is where we need to underline that Adeptus Titanicus generally isn’t a competitive game in the first place and if you want to curb stomp people you might want to look elsewhere."

 

But also have a weekly tactics column featuring every single legio, they did math breakdowns on all the weapons to compare them to the suzerains, and had a big rules investigation about the one janky knight list. Oh and I guess spamming the same mutation set across the board.

[Noserenda]

You dont need to model Mutations, the rules specifically mention this. Id also say spending a whole titans worth of points on them is more likely a hindrance than some WAAC move :D 

And yeah, dunking on an event where half the players and the organiser were out due to Covid IS a bit of a low blow, sounds like things were a bit chaotic due to that and the TO on the day also running a different event on a different floor.

[Noserenda]

On a more positive note, im hoping we will get the Armiger rules arriving in peoples hands soonish! 

Still a bit silly that we have to rely on folks sharing ofc...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Idk nosrenda.

 

Mutations allow for another layer of customization on top of wargear, maniple and legio. That's not getting into how custom legios allow you to spec everything to your chosen maniple. If the given combination of rules allows your titan to solo kill where you needed an extra titan, or survive an enemy titan necessitating more commitment, then arguably across a list the mutations are worth it over an extra bare bones titan. It's the old question of how do you calculate synergy and compounding buffs. You can look to 40k ad mech to see what happens when there's just too much support.

 

I also couldn't find any rule saying "you don't have to model mutations", or to represent your titan being corrupted. It's a pretty big book though, and the rules are notoriously split up poorly, so it's fair to say I might have missed them. But if they're there, does it make sense? It's a game played with 3-5 models and with visual aids for everything. You have terminals so you and your opponent can track the details of a given titan, and any special abilities like ardex or agile. Your paint scheme is supposed to help identify the legio rules you're using and the allegiance they belong to; if your allegiance doesn't match the legio you picked, the rules tell you to make it clear that it's different. It's like me saying I'm running a Corsair maniple, but all my weapons are proxies despite being modeled as melta, blaster, missiles. I can explain it all pre game, but good luck remembering which is which when making decisions, and that's with the terminals to help as well.

 

Now for dunking on the event/tournament. I've ran a bunch of tournaments in the last, and have attended many more. They've all had their player packs set out in advance, both so people can practise and so they can decide if they even want to participate. They've also never allowed list changing or had a variable list size of 500 points. The point being, the original TO (as goonhammer terms it) should have had the format made before collecting money; a filler TO shouldnt have had to make everything up, and especially not just have everyone play a different mission. Additionally, I've seen many tournaments cancelled due to participation issues, especially this past year when covid (and restrictions) were fluctuating; if the demand isn't high enough that's it. And as a final point, the potential to bring a 1250 list only to run up against people with 40% more points than you is crazy. It's why people hated the marine detachments and daemon summoning in 7th, because they literally played at different point values.

 

But.

 

I understand that "events" are a lot more laid back and promote fun and player engagement over measuring skill. Having variable missions, variable point sizes, and the allowance to change lists are all things that fit great into an event where the goal is just to toss some dice and, famously for a lot of British hobbyists, have some pints.

 

That's why I asked if it was actually a tournament, or if goonhammer had mislabeled it.

[Brother Dallo]

For clarity SkimaskMohawk, I was describing a different event (on a different landmass) Edited December 2, 2021 by Brother Dallo

[SkimaskMohawk]

Totally my bad Dallo.

 

Blunderdome sounds hilarious.

[Noserenda]

Mutations are not the same as weapons though are they? One of those things has a whole range of options, even specifically designed to be swapped in many cases and the other has nothing, nothing at all let alone trying to determine how to model a "frozen soul" or similar.

I think its also a bit rich to tie up a factions customisation options behind a kitbashing/modelling gate. A fair few folks wouldnt have a problem doing it, hell, id already built two mutated titans before the rules even came out because i like kitbashing but one of our group scrupulously builds everything out of the box, should his Legio mortis not be allowed mutations then? 

I dont have my copy to hand but its in the core mutation section i think that says roughly that many mutated titans are indistinguishable from their uncorrupted kin at first OOI.

I like the blunderdome idea, probably merits its own thread though? 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Noserenda

[1ncarnadine]

I also couldn't find any rule saying "you don't have to model mutations", or to represent your titan being corrupted. It's a pretty big book though, and the rules are notoriously split up poorly, so it's fair to say I might have missed them. But if they're there, does it make sense? It's a game played with 3-5 models and with visual aids for everything. You have terminals so you and your opponent can track the details of a given titan, and any special abilities like ardex or agile. Your paint scheme is supposed to help identify the legio rules you're using and the allegiance they belong to; if your allegiance doesn't match the legio you picked, the rules tell you to make it clear that it's different. It's like me saying I'm running a Corsair maniple, but all my weapons are proxies despite being modeled as melta, blaster, missiles. I can explain it all pre game, but good luck remembering which is which when making decisions, and that's with the terminals to help as well.

It's actually not in the book as far as I'm can tell either... and I can CTRL+F the digital copy. Unless my search terms are way off, I'm not seeing anything.

 

But two of the playtesters for Traitor Legios wrote a White Dwarf article that says as much, in the most recent issue. I've taken a pic of the relevant section and included it here. It's an informal rule, if anything, but I personally appreciate the thought. I don't have the time to heavily adjust my projects and add many new conversions in, and I'm already a painstakingly slow hobbyist.

[Brother Dallo]

Glad people like the idea of an AT Blunderdome.

 

As suggested, I've split out the topic into a different thread.

 

I can understand either viewpoint regarding modelling mutations, though I think people need to be consistent. If you want people to model Mutations, you should also model Wargear. I would have no problem playing against an opponent who had mutations without modelling them, but if someone rocking an Oath Banner without modelling them complains that I haven't modelled Frozen Soul or Daemonic Bile, I'm calling hypocrisy on that.

 

Dallo

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Why have you put two Melta on that Reaver? The Volcano may be cheaper, but are weaker, and cause heat to fire, blow up the Reaver as well!

[Brother Dallo]

That’s a valid point. I was going off the shorter range meaning you lost a turn of shooting, but the extra heat build up is certainly an option. Then take some detrimental mutations on the Warlords.

 

Fantastic.

[Mandragola]

For what it's worth, my understanding of the event/tournament is that everyone there kind of accepted that it wasn't a "serious" event, round about the point at which only half the players and the TO couldn't make it. Then they just played some games and had fun.

 

Where a guy swapped his list it was to take something worse, not better, to have more fun. It's hard to criticise that move, in my opinion.

 

As for the original TO, maybe he'd have had things a bit better organised if he hadn't caught Covid. I think it's reasonable to offer the benefit of the doubt in that situation.

 

Bair's list was an experiment, about testing the effectiveness of a particular format of mutations. It's not how I'd have done it but I don't think there was anything wrong with it, or that he should have converted up a whole battlegroup just for a one-off test. It clearly wasn't an objectively OP list, given that he came away having lost more games than he won. Bair's a good player and that wouldn't ordinarily be the case.

 

Edit: The problem with designing titans to be bad is that it's a little to easy. Taking only very low-strength weapons makes life pretty difficult, for example. Maybe a list of Warhounds armed exclusively with shock lances would work... very badly. A knight household armed with only avenger gatlings would be particularly rubbish.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Mandragola

[schoon]

Thank-you to everyone for your comments on 1 vs. 2 Maniples.

 

Honestly, I had not considered 2 small maniples vs. 1 regular maniple with some Knight support, which is what I have typically played.

 

So I have some new ideas to play with!

[Brother Dallo]

TIAT I got a game against my mate’s Legio Audax.

 

1250 points. I had a Damicum Ferrox and he had two Canis packs. One with double Ursus Claws and one with mainly lasers.

 

I ended up taking the win, but three Warhounds sharing shields takes some time to break through. Managed to get two decent hits with an Artillery Bombardment, which ended up getting an engine kill and damaging the other two.

 

One question did come up though. My understanding was in the Orders phase, you could select a Titan and give it no orders as a “pass” to see what the other side did to react to it. I don’t think this is the case now. Thoughts?

 

Dallo

[Squike]

TIAT I got a game against my mate’s Legio Audax.

 

1250 points. I had a Damicum Ferrox and he had two Canis packs. One with double Ursus Claws and one with mainly lasers.

 

I ended up taking the win, but three Warhounds sharing shields takes some time to break through. Managed to get two decent hits with an Artillery Bombardment, which ended up getting an engine kill and damaging the other two.

 

One question did come up though. My understanding was in the Orders phase, you could select a Titan and give it no orders as a “pass” to see what the other side did to react to it. I don’t think this is the case now. Thoughts?

 

Dallo

 

my take as always been, if you dont give an order to a unit, you end your orders phase, and the other player is free to attempt any more orders they wish until they are done with their orders.

[General Zodd]

Having re-read the orders section of the rulebook, I concur. That’s not how we’ve been playing locally, I suspect someone said the wrong interpretation very confidently and it just stuck! I will re-educate the local Princeps!

[Sherrypie]

That is literally how the rules are written. You don't choose units to activate in the Strategy Phase unless you have a reason to do so, which in the main rulebook is only to give them Orders (and later on for other shenanigans with legio rules and strats). When you don't want to do anything relevant anymore, you stop activating and the other player carries on with theirs.

 

No skipping allowed.

[Bung]

So after 2 years i dug out my Titanicus stuff.

I put it away for different reasons but mainly cause i didnt find an intersting Legion to paint and play.

Fast forward about the last few weeks, to take a break from my Heresy era Fists and the Traitor Legions book i decided to do Legion Tritions / Dark Tide.

 

Anyone have an idea what Knight House fought with them?

I couldnt find anything. 

 

If there isnt one i probably have to do my own to align with Legio Tritonis and the Forgeworld Arachnus.

[Noserenda]

So after 2 years i dug out my Titanicus stuff.

I put it away for different reasons but mainly cause i didnt find an intersting Legion to paint and play.

Fast forward about the last few weeks, to take a break from my Heresy era Fists and the Traitor Legions book i decided to do Legion Tritions / Dark Tide.

 

Anyone have an idea what Knight House fought with them?

I couldnt find anything. 

 

If there isnt one i probably have to do my own to align with Legio Tritonis and the Forgeworld Arachnus.

 

Are Tritonis the Blackshields one? If so their actual history is pretty short so its worth checking what allies they might have carried forwards from their days as the Legio Venator. I dont recall any specifically blackshield knight houses but you could always create your own or go vassal house?

[Bung]

 

 

So after 2 years i dug out my Titanicus stuff.

I put it away for different reasons but mainly cause i didnt find an intersting Legion to paint and play.

Fast forward about the last few weeks, to take a break from my Heresy era Fists and the Traitor Legions book i decided to do Legion Tritions / Dark Tide.

 

Anyone have an idea what Knight House fought with them?

I couldnt find anything.

 

If there isnt one i probably have to do my own to align with Legio Tritonis and the Forgeworld Arachnus.

Are Tritonis the Blackshields one? If so their actual history is pretty short so its worth checking what allies they might have carried forwards from their days as the Legio Venator. I dont recall any specifically blackshield knight houses but you could always create your own or go vassal house?

Yes, its the Black Shields Legio.

Venator was mentioned to fight mostly with groups Freeblades, so there isnt anything more precise.

I probably makey own Mechanicum aligned house.

[Bung]

Sorry for the posting again, but this seems the right thread to post my question.

 

Its about Allegiance and Stratagems (Defence of Ryza Page 85)

If i choose Blackshield Legions the Bulletpoints are as follows

 

- A Blackshield Battlegroup can purchase Stratagems available to any allegiance and any Player.

..

-A Blackshield Battlegroup can not purchase Stratagems available to any Loyalisst or Traitor players.

 

My conclusion is i can purchase any Stratagem that isnt marked as Loyalist / Traitor only? And no Crusade Legion Stratagems of course.