Discussion on the new C:SM & Possible BT supplement

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The Primaris Apothecary had a full tabard too.

 

But that might just be for the blood...

[Marshal Reinhard]

I just pray its more than rules this time. Guh, this wait is killing me...

 

 

The Primaris Apothecary had a full tabard too.

But that might just be for the blood...

 

To be fair it's technically an apron  Real tabards go down the back too...  

 

But who cares, close enough! Just remember to file off the scalpel if you ever use him for a conversion 

[Acebaur]

Ok guys, I am reopening this topic. There are a few new rumors going around and therefore it is relevant to discuss it here. However, we will absolutely not tolerate off topic discussion here or in any other thread (I'm tired of removing posts), bickering, or whining. I also don't want to hear complaining about how GW hates us or has forgotten us when we haven't even seen our supplement rules yet. Failure to follow this will result in disciplinary action. We are all here to enjoy the same thing, the love of 40K and the Black Templar faction. People enjoy this hobby in different ways and if you no longer find joy in it, then don't come here to complain and argue with other frater. That's not what the B&C is for. 

 

Now, with that out of the way, this is what we know. 

 

- Each of the First Founding chapters will get a supplement

- So far those supplements have all included the following

--- A Primaris Character - Either new or of an existing one

--- A set of Warlord traits

--- 7 Chapter specific relics

--- 16-17 Strategems 

--- Special Issue Wargear

--- A buffed doctrine

--- A set of filthy Witch powers(we definitely won't get this)

--- Tactical Objectives

 

- We do not yet know if we will be in Supplement IF or have our own

- Whether we are or aren't there is no reason to think that we will not get the same type of treatment as the other chapters with CT. We are not one of the successors of the lesser chapters who are basically a color scheme. We are the Black Templars and like our brothers the Crimson Fists we are unique in that we have our own official Chapter Tactic and Warlod Trait in C:SM. We also have our own unique units and characters. 

 

 

Now the following is recent rumors. They are just that. Rumors. As such they should be taken with a mountain of salt and not expected to actually happen until we hear it from GW themselves. 

 

- Buffed Doctrine is we auto wound on a nat 6 in the assault phase. 

- Possible box set

- Possible campaign book

- Helbrecht and Grimaldus rumored to not be Primaris

[Sete]

He'Stan from the Salamanders aparently is not a Primaris. And it seems they might get a new Primaris Captain.

 

There is still hope that we might get a new dude maybe.

While i am disapointed with the rumour of Helbrecth and Grimaldus, we just need to wait and see.

If this goes south i kindly ask the mods for a thread where we can moan in peace ;)

 

On a brighter note we do have a tab in the store, so im not ready to admit defeat.

[redmapa]

Honestly I think the fact that He'stan isnt getting a new model means that Helbrecht's story might be finished and while I doubt they will kill him I do think GW might be looking at creating new characters and new stories. Lysander is another character whose story is pretty much over, he went from a Sergeant to a Captain, then lost and returned, promoted and then demoted and promoted again and now is heading towards Medrengaard because he cant let go, thats a fitting end for him and I think GW will just make another character to be the IF primaris model.

[Acebaur]

 

If this goes south i kindly ask the mods for a thread where we can moan in peace ;)

 

No. We will not have a thread to complain and whine. It is counter to what the B&C is here for and I will not have a thread that promotes negativity in our community.

[SydonianDragoon404]

So if no primaris helbrecht or grimaldus, the Salamander rumors demonstrate that we may end up with a completely new and different character altogether. 

 

Maybe a primaris Emperor's Champion that has a name? What are some other possibilities? 

 

A new Lieutenant/Castellan character model, a named Primaris Chaplain that isn't Grimaldus, maybe something completely new? A Techmarine wouldn't fit us, and I don't think they would make a named character Standard Bearer or Apothecary. 

 

I think I like the idea of a new Primaris Lieutenant character named "Castellan X" insert whatever name for X. 

[Acebaur]

I think a Primaris EC is plausible and makes sense given that anyone can receive the vision of the Emperor.

 

As for our supposed doctrine trait I think it's pretty solid. Certainly better than WS(which isn't bad mind you) because it works on everyone. Plus auto wounding stuff means we can take more swords for their better AP.  Also keep in mind that per the FAQ if we roll a 6 that auto wounds and are in the aura of Grimaldus or a chaplain using Exhortation of Rage you get 2 auto wounds. Also works on Master Swordsman

 

As for not getting Assault doctrine until turn 3, I imagine we are going to get a bunch of melee focused strats and maybe even one that allows us to skip ahead or one like the UM where you get to pick a unit and they get the assault doctrine for that turn. 

[Medjugorje]

I think a Primaris EC is plausible and makes sense given that anyone can receive the vision of the Emperor.

 

As for our supposed doctrine trait I think it's pretty solid. Certainly better than WS(which isn't bad mind you) because it works on everyone. Plus auto wounding stuff means we can take more swords for their better AP.  Also keep in mind that per the FAQ if we roll a 6 that auto wounds and are in the aura of Grimaldus or a chaplain using Exhortation of Rage you get 2 auto wounds. Also works on Master Swordsman

 

As for not getting Assault doctrine until turn 3, I imagine we are going to get a bunch of melee focused strats and maybe even one that allows us to skip ahead or one like the UM where you get to pick a unit and they get the assault doctrine for that turn. 

sorry - thats absolutly NOT true if we look just into the rule itself. It could be very good if we get WL-Traits or more possibilities for "exploding hits" on 6s.  But for itself its just a very weak bonus. just 1/6 attack is an autowound and lot of them would be wounds anyways if its not toughess 8 or something. 

 

Until the Raven Guard cames out, all bonuses seemed to be very strong. RG is not. But they have a good book because there are many other ways to make them very strong. If autowounds are the only bonus - there will be good stratagems and relics... 

[kombatwombat]

I’ll have to agree with Medjugorje here that the doctrine bonus is far weaker than the WS one (assuming it’s true as rumoured).

 

The BT one gets the most mileage when you’re wounding tougher targets. It yields a:

 

5% bonus if you’re wounding the target on 2+

12.5% on 3+

25% on 4+

50% on 5+

125% on 6+

 

It’s not awful when you’re wounding on a 3+, but to really become powerful it needs to be an attack that’s wounding on a 5+ or 6+. The WS bonus depends on the target’s number of wounds. So the most ground the BT one gains over the WS one is against T5 or higher targets, with a single wound - preferably without a FNP since the extra damage really helps there. I can’t actually bring to mind a unit that has T5/W1/no FNP though?

 

Against T4 targets the BT one is 50% stronger if the target has 1 wound, 12.5% stronger if the target has a 5++, and the WS one is 100% stronger if the target has 2 wounds.

 

Against T6 and T7, the BT one gives a 50% bonus, but those models are always multi-wound, so the WS one gives a 100% bonus.

 

Against T8, the BT one is 12.5% stronger. But you really shouldn’t be swinging Str4 weapons at T8 targets if at all possible, so this is pretty minor.

 

If you move away from Str4 weapons, the numbers get worse for the BT bonus as it gets stronger the harder it is to Wound.

 

If you look at multi-damage weapons, which dilute the WS bonus’ effectiveness, Marines have 3 that are broadly available: Thunderhammers, Power Fists and Chainfists. The WS bonus gives the TH a 33% increase and a 50% increase to the other two. As these weapons are all Str8, they’re going to be wounding on a 4+ at worst, so the most they get out of the BT bonus is a 25% lift at best.

 

The only grey area I can see is in Crozius Arcani and Relic Blades, but they’re both rare enough to not be a factor.

 

Overall, the WS doctrine bonus is much, much better in isolation than the BT one. We don’t have the rest of the puzzle yet, but at this stage it’s score 1 to WS.

 

Also don’t forget that most of the abilities that generate extra attacks don’t generate an extra hit, but an extra attack roll. So Grimaldus won’t be making 6s to hit causing 2 wounds, but 1 wound and 1 new to-hit roll.

[Sete]

From kikasstou.

It seems that while a Primaris char is within the Realm of possibility, it has not been mentioned yet.

IF and SaL wilp have new primaris heroes, maybe BT will be part of the treand?

 

"Especially since there will be another glorious "unknown" for IF Tor Garadon captain of the 3rd company. It's fun to see GW set up his first Primaris heroes (Malkaan Feirros, Adrax Agatone and Tor Garadon)."

[Marshal Vespasian]

If a 6 autohits and generates a second attack, does the new attack autohit as well or is it rolled for as normal?
It could combo nicely with incursors.
All in all thats a nice way to make massed chainswords more attractive.
In general, I am very glad about gw not leaving classic marines to Die by teh wayside just yet. And no I dont want to open that whole rabbit hole of a discussion.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Tin foil hat time:

 

A part of me wonders of the reason IF was (allegedly?) Moved back a release window was to change it to remove BT, and put them in our own book. This links into my earlier theory that the BT book is a response to the community survey.

 

It's likely easier/quicker to produce a new codex supplement and have it printed than to do the same with an entirely new model. That would explain:

 

- confused and changing rumour situation

- moving back of IF

- only 6 books shown at start

- alleged lack of Primaris character.

[Sete]

I dunno Adelard, while its a reasonable assumption, think we need to thread carefully.

 

I wish I spoke French so I would ask kikasstou straight if BT would be getting model support.

At the moment that will mean if we are moving forward with the new primaris line, or stay behind in the dust with oldmarines.

[Marshal Reinhard]

From kikasstou.

It seems that while a Primaris char is within the Realm of possibility, it has not been mentioned yet.

IF and SaL wilp have new primaris heroes, maybe BT will be part of the treand?

 

"Especially since there will be another glorious "unknown" for IF Tor Garadon captain of the 3rd company. It's fun to see GW set up his first Primaris heroes (Malkaan Feirros, Adrax Agatone and Tor Garadon)."

 

See before when he said it, or at least when it was relayed, it didn't mention NEW characters anywhere. And it was before the Sally leak had hit. It just said Lysander wasn't getting Primarized. So frankly I thought IF weren't getting a character either at all. (Even, since Kantor was specifically not mentioned, and how CF are seemingly part of the IF release, I even thought a primarized Kantor could be the one model released for the IF/CF crowd)

 

But now he's confidently saying that IF WILL have a new Primaris hero? That does change my outlook on things (regardless of the silence on the BT front, because of course it was)

[Marshal Vespasian]

I'd totally be in board with a new Primaris hero.

With feirros and the rumoured Salamanders guy they seem to be giving formerly rather unknown, but named, guys a Spot in the light. So maybe we see the return of castellan draco. Or the marshal from spear of the emperor or someone similar.

[Marshal Reinhard]

If a new hero would be the case, then maybe there could be something to the new high marshal "rumor" earlier? I'm very quick to discard that one though, because it contained a lot of nonsense, the person behind it never commented on wether it was some sort of wishlisting or anything, he never said where'd heard it, and afaik, never even commented on it again.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Draco would be cool actually. He was always an odd development.

[MegaVolt87]

So many pages, not sure if mentioned. What if instead of a specific psychic doctrine BT get a unique set of chaplin abilities instead to use ON TOP OF the existing chaplin abilities? so you could get the stock one, the second one stok and roll/ pick one super duper one, would have bigger range/ aura, effect etc. 

[Sete]

I would not expect different chaplain abilities.

We don't have Librarians, we have a beatstick champion.

We should be expecting doctrines relics and WT as everyone else.

Model support is up in the air tho until further notice.

[kombatwombat]

I sort of hope that we get a second set of Litanies instead of a witch list, but also worried that they’d replace the Codex litanies rather than be an additional option. The witch powers in the supplements are additional, but based on history I wouldn’t put it past GW to screw us there.

 

It would be a real shame to lose the existing litanies - without them every other Chapter would actually be better than us at charging out of Deep Strike.

[DBadger]

I know we may not gave got much recently but we literally feature on the front cover of two rule books; I think that shows what GW think of the templars.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The problem with the standard Litanies is just the sheer amount of duplication. One is repeated in our CT for a start.

[Sete]

A fair point.

 

Edit: Do we have any big Warhammer event before November?

 

My current theory for the rumoured campaign book , now that we know Hel and Grim are not being updated is Emperor Champion and Primaris Sword bros. (That can easily double as Castellans/Marshal)

 

Looking at the Eldar release they will have exarch and banshees. (maybe something else aswell)

 

Now if we are indeed in book 2, it will be released maybe after November? we do know Sisters are getting a release November and they might have rules on the same Campaign book. or we could go half a year waiting for our rules, which I do not want to believe.

Im confident that we might see something before January.

 

Now this could go the other way too where we just receive some rules and no model support.

 

[Medjugorje]

 

I’ll have to agree with Medjugorje here that the doctrine bonus is far weaker than the WS one (assuming it’s true as rumoured).

...

Also don’t forget that most of the abilities that generate extra attacks don’t generate an extra hit, but an extra attack roll. So Grimaldus won’t be making 6s to hit causing 2 wounds, but 1 wound and 1 new to-hit roll.

But i expect that GeDub will change that. All other buffs in the new codex suddenly changed this way - so its very possible that Grimaldus buff change the same way. Maybe there are more ways to get such bonuses.

 

If there is no Grimaldus and Helbrecht Primaris - I expect the Emperors Champion (because fluffwise every BT can become a EC AND the emperors champion is more likely the best selling BT-model).

And to be honest - I think it would be the best model.

 

 

So many pages, not sure if mentioned. What if instead of a specific psychic doctrine BT get a unique set of chaplin abilities instead to use ON TOP OF the existing chaplin abilities? so you could get the stock one, the second one stok and roll/ pick one super duper one, would have bigger range/ aura, effect etc.

dont know exactly what will happen but I expect a big focus on that.

 

maybe Stratagems to use it for free

maybe relics that will enable a stetic buff of those.

maybe extra ones...

maybe they will be threated as Vows in any way.

maybe they coud be taken as WL-Trait.

 

I think in this case Grimaldus will get the best improvement of all our charakters.

1. he used to be the weakest BT-Character

2. he is possibly the most iconic Chaplain in the entire 40k universe

3. because of his series - GW realises how iconic he is.

4. BT are to 100 percent the most zealous chapter and so the rules for the high chaplain of this chapter need to be better then Cassius ( and he is not bad i would say.)

 

 

The problem with the standard Litanies is just the sheer amount of duplication. One is repeated in our CT for a start.

exactly what i mean... it could be the new way from GW to put us more into another focus. I`ve no problems that many of them could come in another way into our core/special rules.

 

The problem with the standard Litanies is just the sheer amount of duplication. One is repeated in our CT for a start.