Discussion on the new C:SM & Possible BT supplement

[Schlitzaf]

Two of them basically are; reroll Charge one and the mortal wound one

[Sete]

I do like our rules so far.

Re-roll charges with assault doctrine, its a decent buff, and also ignoring Mortal wounds on a 5+ is pretty decent.

Rulewise we are a lot better than before.

We still need to see the rest of the stuff, WT, relics etc, it might get even better.

[balordazul]

I'm keeping an eye on this and I do hope to see some custom litanies for BT.  I'm happy with the change to litanies but I see it more as a lateral move vs a increase or decrease to power.  I do wish they had made it more a tactical systems giving players access to all the litanies vs a librarian style of strategically choosing a power before the battle.  

 

Even if the auto wound on a 6 might be mathematically worse then the WS one it is still in a positive direction that it is assault oriented.  Clearly we have someone from GW that has a much better understanding of BT in this edition then when they were adding into the SM codex.  To me personally as long as the theme goals are in the right direction I'm happy.  We know the studio has a limited dev and testing window and the balance of power is very hard in a game this large.  Also GW does not employ math experts to create a base line on odds or effectiveness like may companies do adding in another complication.

 

Not getting new character models is meh for me as without a equivalent Sword Brethren, Crusader Squads or a next gen Primaris LRC we are just oddly creating a Frankenstein army.  I personally would love to move GW's slow development cycle up on the Primais line so we have all the classic range replacement units released.

 

Between Vigilus and the new rumors BT feels far less like Ultra Templars and closer to the army I enjoyed playing.  

[Acebaur]

Don't forget guys, that the WS ability only applies on the charge or Heroic Intervention. As far as we know ours is all the time. That can make a difference if we get charged or the combat lasts more than one round. 

 

 

Please come down of your high horse Vespassian.

 

I dunno Adelard, while its a reasonable assumption, think we need to thread carefully.

 

I wish I spoke French so I would ask kikasstou straight if BT would be getting model support.

At the moment that will mean if we are moving forward with the new primaris line, or stay behind in the dust with oldmarines.

 

What exactly are you expecting in the way of model support?

 

If it's a primaris character and/or an upgrade sprue, I think that is a reasonable expectation. But if you are expecting an entire box set of models that are specific to our chapter that isn't going to happen. GW doesn't do that anymore and haven't for quite some time. Tooth and claw for example featured SW, but beside the character none of the mini's in there were sculpted as SW. They were the generic kits because then it appeals to more people which then equals more sales. 

 

Furthermore, model support or not does not equate to "getting left in the dust".  Space marines are better than they've been in a long time. So far not one of the chapters has bad rules. There is no reason to expect that we will be neglected. So let's leave the negativity at the door, thanks. 

[Sete]

My reasonable expectation Was Helbrecth and a Sprue.

Since we are not having Helbrecth, and might have a Random Marshall with a sprue, well im still super ok with it. Don't think its setting my expectations high.

What you call negativity I call being fed up.

As we all know we already have been left in the dust a couple times. And seriously this time it will break the camels back on my case.

And im sure im not the only one fed up with it. Even the most optimistic guy here, unless he hates primaris, will be disappointed if we don't get a little something model wise.

[balordazul]

It is always good to have a constructive discussion.  Everyone has their own limits on what is acceptable as far as etiquette in threads and exceptions for a release. 

 

I do hope we get some model support but for my opinion that would get some people's ire up, their are reasons we have seen a minimal customized Primaris releases across all SM chapters and standalone codexes.  

 

I'm personally happy with the rumors as they feel to be going in the right direction along with the knowledge they could all be false.

 

For example myself, I'm likely just going to enjoy my classic range until the range has fully been updated to Priamis and then do my buy in to models I want that fit my play style and theme.  At this rate it could be another 5 years or so before we get there.  I fairly smart with my hobby money and don't approve with the current release system.  Choosing to wait to buy in when the range is fully flushed out just like if someone wanted to play BT now and everyone only had access to the classic range.  Is this good or bad, really neither it is simply how I want to apply my money.

 

Like I have said before the direction of the rules is what is extremely important to me here.  So long as the Dev team can stay as true the spirit of the old Codex as possible the brighter future BT will have.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I for one have always been saying a character and a new update sprue (rather than Grimaldus which I want the most, or Helbrecht, I've felt an EC would be the most likely, and I guess is still on the table even with the latest rumors saying "no Grimaldus or Helbrecht"...) To expect more would be selfdefeating folly, but at the same time a sprue and a character is also my minimum... "expectation" isn't quite the word. "The minimum requirement for fair treatment" I guess? Everyone in the codex seems to be getting this, it'd be a real low blow if we're the only one's who doesn't end up with it.

 

When do we think the IF and Sally supplements will hit? (Or does that even matter, we're in psychic book 2, was it?)

[redmapa]

Im expecting the next supplements to be out in October so November can be Psychic Awakening with new releases for Eldar and SoB.

[MindEraser]

Hold on, brothers! I'm still convinced that aquila from rumour engine it's from grimaldus cenobites.

 

Anyways, if we don't get that candys, new rules and tools to build our crusaders will be much more that we had 2 months ago..

[Acebaur]

My reasonable expectation Was Helbrecth and a Sprue.

Since we are not having Helbrecth, and might have a Random Marshall with a sprue, well im still super ok with it. Don't think its setting my expectations high.

What you call negativity I call being fed up.

As we all know we already have been left in the dust a couple times. And seriously this time it will break the camels back on my case.

And im sure im not the only one fed up with it. Even the most optimistic guy here, unless he hates primaris, will be disappointed if we don't get a little something model wise.

 

you don't know whether we're getting Primaris Helbrecht or not, that is a RUMOR,  nothing more.  As I said, I think a character and a sprue is reasonable given what the other chapters are getting. That said if we don't get that but have great rules? I'd personally be fine with that as well as in the end, it's easy enough to find maltese cross upgrades on the various sites that sell bitz. 

 

Perhaps you did not read my orange post, you should go read it again. You are welcome to be fed up with whatever it is that upsets you. You are not however allowed to spew negativity all over this forum. It simply won't be tolerated and if it continues then further action will be taken. 

[Sete]

Im expecting the next supplements to be out in October so November can be Psychic Awakening with new releases for Eldar and SoB.

Makes sense. IH and RG took what 6 weeks?

We might be looking december/january for our rules.

Edit: maybe wont even take that long.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We'll know a lot about our fate when the IF book drops. One way or the other...

[balordazul]

We'll know a lot about our fate when the IF book drops. One way or the other...

That is a good thought because even if BT is just a lore foot note in the IF supplement their would be a very high likely hood of a message from GW where BT will be pleased on the community site.

 

Neat that never crossed my mind.  Thanks Adelard!

[Mmmmm Napalm]

My primary worry is that our inclusion in a Campaign book versus our own supplement means that we won't receive as much content regarding rules as well as models.

 

For rules, I'm concerned that we won't get the full wealth of WL traits, Stratagems, relics & special issue wargear that the others got, due to the book likely not being dedicated to us specifically.

 

Regarding models, all I want is a plastic character and a Primaris Upgrade sprue. I don't expect any unique units or anything.

 

The upgrade sprue is what I am worried about. I can easily see our old sprue giving GW cause to neglect to produce an updated sprue. Furthermore, I can absolutely see a character being attached to a campaign, but I feel as though an upgrade sprue is a product less likely to release alongside one.

 

I know we already have a sprue, but most of its components can't be used with new miniatures, and the detail isn't as sharp as newer stuff. Plus, I would really like a new transfer sheet, one that features red crosses (the third party red decals I have purchased don't show up on black).

 

Compare the paudrons in the old sprue to the BT pauldron in the Deathwatch vets kit. The latter is more symmetrical, has sharper detail, and the cross itself doesn't awkwardly jut way out to the side.

 

I dunno, I could very well be wrong, but I feel that my concern is valid given what we know.

[Sete]

Not worth it napalm let it go. Lets keep on topic.

 

I have been thinking about our possible sprue.

The chapters released so far had 2 sprues, 10 shoulder pads.

Since BT actually uses the symbol on both shoulders as we all know, our single sprue will be the size of 2 of other chapters.

This could open up a few more bits and bling options for us. If it exists ;)

 

Now Dark Eldar stuff has been revelead, obviously Yannri (or however you write it lol) can use from both ranges.

 

This is actually great, because depending on the release model they might be on a Box vs Each other or independent releases.

With luck we might get the same treatment, if we are the second campaign book focus, so not having a supplement can actually be a blessing in disguise.

[balordazul]

Tin foil hat time :)

 

I know this is not in any rumor but I could see with BT being in the psychic awakening fleet video and all the other stuff that we could possible see a anti psycher model. (Reliquary type model.)

 

DE is going to be strange as they don't like Psychers either.  Also AC was on the list so it will be super interesting over the next few months. 

[Mmmmm Napalm]

Not worth it napalm let it go. Lets keep on topic.

 

I have been thinking about our possible sprue.

The chapters released so far had 2 sprues, 10 shoulder pads.

Since BT actually uses the symbol on both shoulders as we all know, our single sprue will be the size of 2 of other chapters.

This could open up a few more bits and bling options for us. If it exists ;)

 

 

That's possible, or our's would be the same size and they'll compensate with a transfer sheet like thise included in the other packs. I would be perfectly fine with either.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

It's been very hard for me to shake the feeling that the first campaign book will drop in October alongside IF and dSallies, and BT will drop in November alongside Sisters. The timing is too perfect, and my gut feeling is that we're going to share a prayer mechanic with them. 

 

This is pure speculation, but consider the following:

 

Sisters were created in response to massive survey requests.

BT had a significant presence in the last survey.

Both armies are great candidates for a prayer-based mechanic that lets them substitute faith for psychic.

Sisters models are dropping in November.

The current Marine release pattern appears to be new books every month.

The last two books for First Founding chapters apparently drop in October.

 

I'm not even entirely sure that we won't be getting a supplement at this point. This is my gut feeling, nothing more. I've been wrong plenty of times, as GW likes to ignore what seems obvious to me. But the above list has been guiding my thoughts and expectations ever since the RG/IH codex dropped and the online tabs were updated. 

 

If I'm right about what we might get, then we should be excited for 2 reasons:

 

1. Getting to share unique rules with 1 other army would be a huge step toward regaining our glory as a flavorful chapter.

2. Being recognized alongside sisters might mean that we stop being treated as red shirts and finally start doing crap in lore that matters.

 

I could care less about Primaris model support. That will come when it comes. I want the very large, very well-painted army I already own to feel good to play. The general buff to space marines has given me a little boost. I'm half way there. Just get me the rest of the way.

[Sete]

Well we dont know for sure how strong was our presence in the survey.

 

I do agree on the points that we might drop with sisters, but sharing a prayer mechanic, as cool as it would be, i dont believe it will happen. This would be stepping on the uniqueness of their army.

 

But yeah i think we will be involved with sisters on a campaign. Maybe a celestine buff could affect our units?

 

Last book (audiobook in this case) that we had was with Celestine and Greyfax, Our Martyred Lady. While we have a somewhat secondary role, its pretty good overall and i recomend it for whats it worth.

 

About Primaris support, i think a bit is needed.

After all most of us here already have our armies, but new toys, means new blood aswell.

 

And more costumers means more £££ for GW, and more attention to us aswell in the long run.

Its a positive vicious circle.

 

Just spitballing here, but the Sisters release, is it just that box that was previewed?

 

After Eldar drops, and of the rumour is correct, we will get an idea of how our potential release might go.

[balordazul]

That is all we have seen I believe and it is just re-sculpts of the old models with nothing new shown.  Great for a new person to get into that faction but not so for vet sister players.  The DG release was very strong with new ranged and melee in the PM boxes.  I hope their is more that we have not seen.

 

This would be my hope if we ever get new kits that we see some more load out options.  Sure if we get anything it would be primaris but it would be good to see new options besides a bigger marine.  

 

Did GW ever display the data breakdown from the survey? 

 

But yes more BT rules and hopefully kits will help generate interest in the faction enough at some point allowing the upper management at GW to green light more physical model support for BT.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Still no results from the survey from this year. Which makes me think they are sitting on them for a big release of some kind.

[Sete]

I have been checking the galaxy map of where the second campaign might be.

Unless GW brings out a new planet, it could be Hydraphur. Unless im missing one thats the closest one to the map location (unless they move agrippina south)

[kombatwombat]

Don't forget guys, that the WS ability only applies on the charge or Heroic Intervention. As far as we know ours is all the time. That can make a difference if we get charged or the combat lasts more than one round.

Valid point, but realistically how often do we see combats lasting more than one round this edition?

 

The ability to freely waltz away from combat means that, for the most part, you only stay in combat if you think you’re going to win. If, at the start of your turn you’re in a combat and you don’t have the upper hand, you fall back so you can shoot and/or charge the unit instead. I know tri-pointing is a thing, but the realities of model positioning and clever casualty removal can make that a dicey proposition. On the other side of the coin, if you charged your opponent, why did you charge a unit that will kill yours? Combined with the sheer lethality of this edition, I very rarely see combats lasting more than one round until the last few turns where a couple of under-strength units are having fisticuffs because they don’t have much else to do.

 

Also, don’t forget that WS’ Chapter Tactic is fall back and charge. Barring a few edge cases against units with highly effective overwatch, they are always going to be getting their doctrine bonus.

 

This is not to say that our overall rules won’t be as good as WS, but the doctrine bonus is categorically worse. The rest of our rules package is going to have to be very, very strong to catch up. Particularly as the doctrine bonus is the biggest boost as it is ‘always on’ once you reach the relevant doctrine. Stratagems, Litanies, Warlord Traits and Relics are either focused on one unit or in a single small aura and can end when you run out of CP or a character dies, whereas the doctrine bonus affects every unit on the table.

 

It’s certainly possible for the rest of the package to make up for the deficient doctrine bonus, but it’ll take some doing. One thing that would really level the scales would be an innate ability to let BT start the game in Tactical rather than Devastator Doctrine so we teach Assault Doctrine in T2. Our weaker doctrine bonus is mitigated if we can use it earlier. Failing that, a Stratagem to the same effect would help, but then we’re just paying a CP tax.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Can you not advance the doctrine from heavy to tactical turn one, then tactical to assault turn 2? I've been waiting to buy the SM codex until I can buy both it and BT rules together. Seemed like the best way to vote with my wallet.

[Acebaur]

Can you not advance the doctrine from heavy to tactical turn one, then tactical to assault turn 2? I've been waiting to buy the SM codex until I can buy both it and BT rules together. Seemed like the best way to vote with my wallet.

 

No, it says that you can advance it starting turn 2