We're Gonna Get a Book!

[Fenriwolf]

Went to work a bit on the "on paper list" and i managed to turn it into an experimental "45 h.bolter,30 stalkers and 24 autocannons shots each phase,+ extras"

 

Still not sure it's good but it was fun to see

Edited October 17, 2019 by Fenriwolf

[BitsHammer]

My current favorite anti tank build is 5 Hellblasters with Heavy Plasma. Averaging 6.79 wounds when overcharged in the Devastator Doctrine vs vehicles making them work a bit better than lascannons Devastators (with more wounds to soak with). Give the a to-hit re-roll and it gets even better from there.

 

I'm sure we likely have even better, but it looks like a solid choice.

[Hellebras]

I'm still interested in trying a couple of plasma Executioners as a big part of my anti-tank. Partly because I can't fit heavy laser destroyers into the list I'm planning to run at the moment, and partly because I like the added flexibility that they have over the HLD. On paper, their effectiveness against most tanks seems to be a little higher on average (though the HLD's greater consistency means it's probably the better tool for the job), and unlike the HLD it's more useful against an army without much in the way of big targets. Like one where I took out most enemy armor in a couple of shooting phases, for example.

[BitsHammer]

Plasma, especially plasma cannon varients, look like one of the most flexible tools we have. I'm a big fan.

[Lemondish]

My current favorite anti tank build is 5 Hellblasters with Heavy Plasma. Averaging 6.79 wounds when overcharged in the Devastator Doctrine vs vehicles making them work a bit better than lascannons Devastators (with more wounds to soak with). Give the a to-hit re-roll and it gets even better from there.

 

I'm sure we likely have even better, but it looks like a solid choice.

I think the biggest issue I have with the heavy plasma is that even with +1 damage, they're still less lethal than the rapid fire AND when facing anything without vehicles they're extremely weak.

 

I can probably deal easily with subpar units in my list, but these guys kind of feel more like a liability.

 

Provided there's no other benefit from the codex specific to them, that is.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

I think the biggest issue I have with the heavy plasma is that even with +1 damage, they're still less lethal than the rapid fire AND when facing anything without vehicles they're extremely weak.

 

I can probably deal easily with subpar units in my list, but these guys kind of feel more like a liability.

 

Provided there's no other benefit from the codex specific to them, that is.

 

 

I kinda feel everything you say - but without transports I think the rapid-fire plasma is just not getting there. I have played against it often enough and 15" range is just never happening against an opponent who cares about plasma. 

 

I magnetised my hellblasters so they can be either heavy or rapid fire. Unless or until I decide an Impulsor heavy list is worth playing I think they will be getting used with the heavy plasma.

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

I think the biggest issue I have with the heavy plasma is that even with +1 damage, they're still less lethal than the rapid fire AND when facing anything without vehicles they're extremely weak.

 

I can probably deal easily with subpar units in my list, but these guys kind of feel more like a liability.

 

Provided there's no other benefit from the codex specific to them, that is.

 

I kinda feel everything you say - but without transports I think the rapid-fire plasma is just not getting there. I have played against it often enough and 15" range is just never happening against an opponent who cares about plasma.

 

I magnetised my hellblasters so they can be either heavy or rapid fire. Unless or until I decide an Impulsor heavy list is worth playing I think they will be getting used with the heavy plasma.

Totally valid - I'd feel the same way if I could rely on that 3 damage heavy always being a contributor, but only applying to vehicles makes me feel like they'll be pretty subpar against other big targets.

 

Of course, there's nothing quite like a match in to nail down how things look on paper.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Lemondish

[War Angel]

Maybe just one unit?

 

If you don’t move and your at max range against a vehicle, heavy is better, but then in any other scenario, now rapid fire wins. It’s a tough call.

[Lemondish]

Maybe just one unit?

 

If you don’t move and your at max range against a vehicle, heavy is better, but then in any other scenario, now rapid fire wins. It’s a tough call.

 

For looks alone I could probably spare one unit. I mean, I'm going to be painting them up anyway - might as well throw them into a match and see what happens. 

 

My hope is that there's some kind of stratagem, warlord trait, or even relic benefit I can tease out some combo with that otherwise wouldn't be possible with the rapid fire version. Not even Praetorian's Wrath really helps. Anything without an invulnerable save just gets bypassed at -5 AP native anyway. 

[BitsHammer]

One unit was all I was planning personally. I mean, without over charging they're still S8, -4AP which can plonk wounds off things pretty well and you only need them to really put the work in for a turn or two against tanks where they'll very quickly make back their points investment (especially if we have a shoot twice strat).

 

Basically they're a support element that ideally helps you either kill or cripple a key vehicle (Leman Russ commanders, Long Strike, Chronus are all good options to aim at too), but shouldn't be your only anti-big things unit.

[Lemondish]

One unit was all I was planning personally. I mean, without over charging they're still S8, -4AP which can plonk wounds off things pretty well and you only need them to really put the work in for a turn or two against tanks where they'll very quickly make back their points investment (especially if we have a shoot twice strat).

 

Basically they're a support element that ideally helps you either kill or cripple a key vehicle (Leman Russ commanders, Long Strike, Chronus are all good options to aim at too), but shouldn't be your only anti-big things unit.

 

A good point. From my perspective, which is admittedly a bit too competitive focused when it comes to assessing the viability of certain units, it isn't as effective at both jobs as the rapid fire one, which doesn't rely on a specific target to do respectable damage. 

 

Have you heard anything about a shoot twice strat?

[Utter Polux]

It’s the range I like about heavy plasma. It won’t be that difficult to remove 5 hellblasters...but at the full range they have, your opponents will perhaps have to choose between targeting your hellblasters or tanks/dreads. It’s the range you can keep between the hellblasters and the opponents anti infantry.

 

Small squad of 5 heavy plasma hellblasters doing up to 15 damage a turn that are out of range on turn one...it’s not a bad unit to have.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

One unit was all I was planning personally. I mean, without over charging they're still S8, -4AP which can plonk wounds off things pretty well and you only need them to really put the work in for a turn or two against tanks where they'll very quickly make back their points investment (especially if we have a shoot twice strat).

 

Basically they're a support element that ideally helps you either kill or cripple a key vehicle (Leman Russ commanders, Long Strike, Chronus are all good options to aim at too), but shouldn't be your only anti-big things unit.

A good point. From my perspective, which is admittedly a bit too competitive focused when it comes to assessing the viability of certain units, it isn't as effective at both jobs as the rapid fire one, which doesn't rely on a specific target to do respectable damage.

 

Have you heard anything about a shoot twice strat?

I haven't but it would fit the army well.

[BitsHammer]

Well we probably don't have shoot twice but we can wound vehicles on 2+!

 

Tank Hunters give +1 to wound rolls versuses vehicles.

[Hellebras]

Well that's going to be strong. I'd like to stay full Primaris (the models are just too good...) but that makes bolter devastator centurions go from good to frightening. And that's still good on a whole lot of other units too, it just seems to stand out most on anything with a bunch of heavy bolter shots.

[jeremy1391]

Centurion bomb is going to make people sad

[Lemondish]

Well we probably don't have shoot twice but we can wound vehicles on 2+!

 

Tank Hunters give +1 to wound rolls versuses vehicles.

 

That's pretty powerful if true.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

Well we probably don't have shoot twice but we can wound vehicles on 2+!

 

Tank Hunters give +1 to wound rolls versuses vehicles.

That's pretty powerful if true.

It's limited to one unit and costs CP, but it makes a big unit of tank killers even better.

[Fenriwolf]

I think we'll have to build brigades after looking at the strats. 

 

The good ones are good but almost everything worth using is 2CP (and 3 alredy go away while building the list thanks to CM+siegebreaker).Anything less than +12 starting CP won't probable be able to sustain the needed use of everything

Edited October 19, 2019 by Fenriwolf

[Fenriwolf]

So,after a few hours of thinking-about-it,the imho on the stratagems

 

-Tank hunters:really strong where it applies.Wounding knights on 4+ (and moving autocannons to 3+ vs Re 7 and stalkers to 5+ vs Re 8) buffs all those weapons we might want to spam for the supplement bonus by a lot.And that in turn means that you can either nuke a single target out of the table (coffkrastcrusadercoff) or probably hit 2 things really hard (1 with seismic devastation centurions,1 with everything else+this)

Still,it's plain useless vs most tau,demons (more or less) and tyr

 

-Sappers: ahahahahahahahahahahah

 

-Bolster defenses: i kinda misunderstood how it worked from the older rumor. The real version makes the "one use only" more sensible. The only problem is that,while it's clearly made for 0+ armor centurions,it doesn't really work with the bolter ones (you'll have to move them sooner or later).It seems to be made more for lascannon and missile ones.Probably worth using regardless

 

-Bolter drill: not much to say that isn't very very obvious here

 

-Stubborn defense: i don't play maelstrom often so i have honestly no idea.

 

-Shield unwavering: might be good on large units of intercessors. More so if you are in a terrain and also threw bolster defense on them for +3 armor vs shooting/+2 in melee

 

-Sentinel of Terra: "you'll use this and the hand of Dorn WT every game"*

 

-Clearance protocol: "A veichle just got near you.Throw 10 krak grenades at it and see what happens". Probably throwing frags doesnt have much use outside of stalker bolter squads (someone else can do the math for them vs the other types of boltguns )but still...

 

-Pain is a lesson: honestly don't like this too much,spending cp for a single phase 6+ fnp seems a bit too much considering how cp heavy everything seems to be

 

-Close range bolter fire: sounds good.Probably more that i'm thinking right now.Probably helps small squads more than anything

 

-Bitter enemy: flavor is flavor

 

 

*still,the ignore wound rolls of 1-2-3+halve wounds taken might be good enough to override it

Edited October 19, 2019 by Fenriwolf

[Lemondish]

Immensely disappointed in what's here. At least we got Siegebreaker in Vigilus to still pull out some neat tools.

 

That whole Discipline is pretty crappy.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Hmm clearance protocol on Reivers - a min squad could shut down overwatch from 5 infantry units. Niche but it would totally troll anyone relying on overwatch.

 

In general Reivers are the main primaris unit I think you would want to use that strat on as their shooting is unimpressive and they generally want to get up close much more than most of our units. You are giving up inferior shooting to get the grenades instead and its on one of our cheaper squads.

 

Looking at OG marines I think assault squads or even scout squads could be good users of the strat. The same logic applies, it is cheap enough to put 10 of them on the table and you are not giving up any great firepower to use the grenades instead.

[Utter Polux]

I like the strats...

 

Clearance Protocol Grenade strat is cool for a 10 man intercessor unit with stalker bolt rifles. It’s a nice way to mitigate the low shot output. Can you use it before a charge instead of overwatch? Cuz 10 D6 frag would be nifty vs low toughness models. It’s also a nice way of making a deep striking unit that can get in range viable vs light armour.

 

Tank Hunter is awesome and it shows straight away that the low strength of weapons like stalker bolt rifles and heavy bolters are all of a sudden valid vs vehicles. It also makes auto cannons pretty sweet and the heavy Gatling cannon will also love this strat. It’s just good for everything!

 

 

I can’t get over how good centurions are...I don’t like the models :cuss but they are nasty as fists!

 

There are lots of ways to improve cover saves. It does mean that a large squad of hellblasters or a squad of centurions could be made into tough/tougher units to remove.

 

Pedro has been change to re-roll hits rather than misses which is good but expected...shame he’s still a tiny marine mind. Gains an attack I think as well.

 

Overall from what I’ve seen imperial fists are very good and it’s going to be fun making important units very hard to kill or making dangerous units even more dangerous.

 

If they had made Pedro Primaris I would have been soooooo happy but never mind.

 

Do you think Imperial Fists are better than Crimson Fists? Or is there a way to make a very good successor chapter?

[Hellebras]

Aside from the Siegebreaker Cohort, I actually think Crimson Fists are better than Imperial Fists. As I understand it from the reviews, the Crimson Fists actually get access to more material from the supplement than the Imperial Fists, even if they need a command point to get the IF relics and warlord traits. Ignoring Cover isn't bad, especially when what was done with the Raven Guard tactic becomes more common, but the CF anti-horde rule is nifty. Plus the Liberator Strike Force in Vigilus is still pretty solid, and unlike the Siegebreaker Cohort I don't think it's likely to take a Nerf bat to the face. And Pedro's a pretty big advantage too. I'll always prefer the idea of getting the Chapter Master bonus with points over CP. Especially since it looks like we'll need every CP we can get.

 

But more importantly, the supplement seems fun and thematic. Unlike the other chapter supplements, we aren't being heavily incentivized to get into or stay in a particular doctrine, so that's going to give you more strategic decision making to do. I like that a lot. And outside of what we can do with centurions, I don't think there's anything genuinely overpowered here, which I'd been afraid of before we started getting leaks. I love how much we can do to make a unit harder to shift, it forges all the narratives to me. Such a Fisty approach.

[Lemondish]

Do you think Imperial Fists are better than Crimson Fists? Or is there a way to make a very good successor chapter?

No. You actually gain more by being Crimson Fists, who inexplicably can use everything in the book, whereas the parent chapter cannot use the Crimson Fist parts.

 

Boys in blue robbed us of two relics and two strats ;)

Edited October 20, 2019 by Lemondish