What are you looking forward to most in the RG supplement?

[MajorNese]

Well, since I already own 3x3 Eliminators and 2x phobos captain, I'm looking forward to actually deleting characters reliably.

But I don't really look forward to recalculate the effectiveness of Guided Aim. Again.

 

As for the rest of the army, getting a buff against characters is extremely situational, depending on which army your opponent brings and which units he selects. It would take some above average strats/relics/WL traits to make a dent on larger points levels.

 

Sadly the preview was in that regard restricted to what we already had as WL trait/relic, so we are none the wiser. Unlike IH - if they had previewed the pre-existing relic and WL trait, it would have been just as uninspiring as ours. We'll have to wait for the really interesting and army-defining stuff, but leaks should happen rather soon...

[Panzer]

I agree, it's always annoying to see something sold as news that really isn't anything new. Imagine what else we could have learned if they had replaced those with actual new bits of informations.

[Brother Quixote]

Okay, I know some people have already made these points but my impressions of the preview:

 

Surgical Strikes - This is not what I expected at all and I feel is sometimes being looked at in the wrong way.  Trading -1 AP on snipers in devastator for +1 to hit and wound is a no brainer, I'll take mortal wounds on a 5+, thankyou.

It's just a shame once the enemy characters are gone/hidden it does nothing, unlike other traits.  I'm regarding this as a useful tool but not something you can easily build an entire list around (probably why you won't see us much at tournaments).

 

Warlord trait - not really a preview, seriously, get it together GW hype team.

 

Relic - Not exactly the same, people are overlooking the added Hammer of Wrath bit.  In itself not mind blowing, but maybe we can extrapolate old RG relics being given a rules tweak to make them better.  This is a good sign. Nihilus, Ex Tenebris or Swiftstrike and Murder anyone?

 

Shadowstep - Has some big possibilities, looking forward to the psychic powers if this is any indication.

 

False Flight - Useful in the right situation, expecting more of the same for stratagems generally.

 

Conclusion, I'm still hopeful we'll get some good stuff and I'm happy we're not regarded as SUPER AWESOME, it means we won't get our main rules changed stupidly quickly.

[Claws and Effect]

 

Conclusion, I'm still hopeful we'll get some good stuff and I'm happy we're not regarded as SUPER AWESOME, it means we won't get our main rules changed stupidly quickly.

I'm expecting Shadowstep will get Errata'd to only work on Infantry characters after the first cheeky guy uses it to fling a Chaplain Dread that has buffed itself across the table. At a tournament where GW can see it.

[thewarriorhunter]

Like I said the LR Excelsor is also a character... Deep striking land raiders full of terminators anyone?

 

Also I forgot that the +1 means MW on 5s, I need to play more to start remembering/thinking about those little edges.

[thewarriorhunter]

The new eliminator kit looks sexy, and I love that the terrain bits are not attached to the model's feet so I won't have to clip them off. A couple kits might have enough scatter for objective markers.

 

https://scontent.fphx1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/70121615_2395021870818438_2700329965735378944_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQms2CQmsYu_gaDG-7ll27N9IfmcMBP42K9dsqhiF37jfDrl3PmJQ7VWh6ersFpcGyI&_nc_ht=scontent.fphx1-1.fna&oh=82108e85cba70b7fd08e99ef8115f1a1&oe=5E0F3F8B

[zero88]

People are getting too wrapped around the axle about the Doctrine bonus.. take a look at White Scars.. their bonus isn't the best either (Can't be activated until T3, assault phase is weaker than shooting this edition), but what makes them so good is their stratagems and relics/powers

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

People are getting too wrapped around the axle about the Doctrine bonus.. take a look at White Scars.. their bonus isn't the best either (Can't be activated until T3, assault phase is weaker than shooting this edition), but what makes them so good is their stratagems and relics/powers

 

Warning: Vyper patented wall-of-text

 

I wanted to respond to this to address what I think are common thematic/balance issues have, while not dismissing legitimacy. I wanted to start off by saying that I agree with you, people tend to overreact. I have done this myself, and its especially common when something feels personal. It's easy to do in this game based on the time and money we dedicate to the assembly, prep, paint, conversions, and play time. Nevermind the narrative and emotional attachment over time.

 

I think the Warhammer community suffers greatly from "Covet thy neighbor" syndrome. This is especially true with Space Marines. We were the original army to have subfactions with different rules within one faction, and largely using one range. While all armies are encouraged to paint your dudes as your own, the Space Marine collection and lore is more expansive than any other faction in the game. What does this mean when it comes to growth and change? Everyone has a different opinion, and most people easily fall into the trap of "His is bigger than mine".

 

A large chunk of marine players have their own DIY scheme, usually coupled with a DIY head-canon to go along with that. As such when new marine rules updates come (and minis, campaign books, etc, etc.) these players will view them all thoroughly. Most players take no issue with swapping between whatever rules set they feel is strongest/fits their narrative best/or evokes a sense of comfort to their play-style. The rub happens when the audience has an expectation in their mind of what the new miniatures should be, or how the new rules should reflect on the tabletop. When the new hotness  does drop, and it doesn't meet or exceed expectations, that can be jarring. 

 

We as a community, due to how developed this faction is, are spoiled. When you couple that spoiled/babied nature historically speaking alongside the most recent lackluster rules package we were given at the beginning of 8th, it sort of sets up a powder-keg of emotions. CSM players feel directly insulted. Wolves/DA/BA all feel abandoned. DW folks are having flashbacks to when their "subfaction" was an Index Astartes article. What's the reality though? The updates have to come sequentially, and they will come slowly. Someone has to be first, and someone has to be last. Blood Angels had some of the most competitive choices in the Marine range for nearly 2 years. Deathwatch were arguably some of the strongest marine units for a good chunk of time. Now that new hotness is out? That's only a memory.

 

Same thing happens with the First Founding boys. Just a couple months ago I was okay with playing with a decent Chapter Tactic, a mediocre melee Special Character in a shooting meta, and one WT/Relic. Just a couple weeks ago I was excited to play with a wealth of general units and strategems, and the promise of more to come specifically tailored to me. Then two days ago I was...disappointed? But why was I disappointed? I was getting more than I had had before, right? I was disappointed because 1) At first glance the new rules appear weaker than their comparative cousins, and 2) It didn't quite line up with expectations in my head.

 

I think another thing that is important for people to remember is this: The game is not balanced, and it never has been. Units/rules are released oftentimes too strong, and sometimes are nerfed. This is of course after you have purchased those models and dominated with them for some time. Whether you believe that is incompetence on GW's part as a rules writing company, or outright malevolent in terms of business practice is really irrelevant. 

 

What's beautiful about this game/rules/minis/lore/fiction is that it can be all things to all people. It's important to decide what it means to you, and temper your expectations against that. If you are a cutting edge tournament player, than you should know the cycle of OP is a wheel, and what is strong and what is weak should not anger you, for your evaluation should be dispassionate. If you are a more casual player that plays against friends and at your FLGS, Surgical Strikes or Calculated Fury will not, at the end of the day, determine who is victorious and who is vanquished. Your generalship and game acumen will.

 

Celebrate the growth, the options, the details, the enormity of it all. Savor it.

 

To quote my boy Gandalf: "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

[Jacques Corbin]

I think the intent of Surgical Strikes is to buff Grav Chute Reavers with Carbines. Drop them in on turn 2 or 3, hopefully behind the screens for characters, and let loose.

 

Also, Sternguard with their Special Issue Bolters in a Drop Pod. That will be nasty, rapid fire out to 15 inches, at AP-2, Tactical Doctrine and Surgical Strikes in effect, plus the Stratagem for Sternguard, for when that character must be purged.

 

Also, Surgical Strikes will be nasty against armies that have deep striking characters, like Crisis Commanders, Terminator characters, etc, when used with Auspex Scan. Especially if your opponent drops in the character first. Lots of older players in my area are in the habit of setting up the character first, and then placing the units around it.

[sultansean]

 

I'm expecting Shadowstep will get Errata'd to only work on Infantry characters after the first cheeky guy uses it to fling a Chaplain Dread that has buffed itself across the table. At a tournament where GW can see it.

 

 

Jeez i hope not it is a strictly worse "da jump" and you can't tell me a character dread is more scary than 40 ork boyz with all sorts of crazy charge shenanigans.

 

 

Surgical strike makes sniper scouts and eliminators very good, but not much else. 

[Panzer]

Okay, I know some people have already made these points but my impressions of the preview:

 

Surgical Strikes - This is not what I expected at all and I feel is sometimes being looked at in the wrong way.  Trading -1 AP on snipers in devastator for +1 to hit and wound is a no brainer, I'll take mortal wounds on a 5+, thankyou.

It's just a shame once the enemy characters are gone/hidden it does nothing, unlike other traits.  I'm regarding this as a useful tool but not something you can easily build an entire list around (probably why you won't see us much at tournaments).

 

 

I mostly agree, but not completely. If the enemy is hiding his characters he's limiting his movement options a LOT which affects his whole army due how aura reliant most armies are these days. Just having the threat on the table, ready to shoot once it gets the chance, is already the unit doing work even without having to kill something.

 

But yeah trading -1AP on snipers and heavys for +1 to-hit and wound and -1AP and all the rapid fire and assault weapons is definitely a no-brainer. The Tactical Doctrine is more useful as it is and now it also affects snipers for Raven Guard making it just so much better. ^^

[MajorNese]

 

But yeah trading -1AP on snipers and heavys for +1 to-hit and wound and -1AP and all the rapid fire and assault weapons is definitely a no-brainer.

Agreed. Snipers already have enough AP, as their usual targets tend to have invuls anyway. But having inbuilt Guided Aim all the time due to RG tactics, Eliminators become hilariously effective - they average almost 1W per model against T4 4++ (captains). 9 Eliminators would be a sure way to kill one or two characters per round, and I will recalculate that with the ammo that doesn't require LoS.

 

Meaning we can use Eliminators for threat management - they can touch any model on the board (except for the ones in CC), no matter if it's a character or out of LoS. The latter will be weaker, but S5 and +1 to wound will still achieve results. And with camo cloak, they have a 2+ save even against the spammable AP-1 stuff, requiring either big guns or ridiculous amounts of chaff fire. And with RG being in cover all the time, they are completely free to position. God-Emperor, I'm glad I got 9 of those already...

[Ishagu]

Have you guys noticed that the Strat for Intercessors with Stalkers grants mortal wounds on a roll of 6+ (Not a natural 6)

 

That means that a squad of RG Stalker Intercessors using the 3CP Strat (which is admittedly expensive) on turn 2 will shoot 10 times, hitting on 2s, wounding most characters on 2s or 3s with AP-2 2 damage, and dealing mortal wounds on a 5+

 

This will reliably kill any non vehicle/monster character in sight (with the exception of Abaddon?) in one round of shooting. Very strong, worth doing for sure.

[MajorNese]

Yep, makes them temporarily comparable to Eliminators, while still being mandatory troops and cheaper per model.

Though I prefer to spend points on Eliminators over spending CP/fewer points on a large troops unit that is of rather questionable effectiveness otherwise - unlike let's say IH, who have better rules for them.

 

The thing I find potentially powerful is the psychological impact Eliminators have with recent profile buff and RG buff. They can touch any model on the board, and are now clearly capable of taking them down. Especially the army-defining characters - captain/LT in a firebase, psykers, markerlights, relic caddies, smash captains, repair guys, TFC gunners,...

 

Anyway, both approaches should work. It probably depends on whether you want it to be a rather cheap one-use strike against the biggest threat, or a constant threat at the cost of more points and HS slots.

[Panzer]

 and I will recalculate that with the ammo that doesn't require LoS.

 

 

They can poke characters out of LoS at least a little bit.

Against a Cadre Fireblade, Lord Commissar or similar a unit of 3 does 1.39 damage on average. Against a Marine Captain 1.04, against a Gravis/Bike Captain 0.83 and against a Terminator Captain 0.69 damage.

 

The actual ridiculous part about it is that it takes a hit modifier of -4 to actually make them hit worse since the ammo gives +2 to-hit and as RG you get another +1.

 

Edit: figured putting a screenshot of the whole thing up here makes more sense.

 

[Ishagu]

Those numbers a bit conservative. Assume they always have re-rolls from auras, etc. If I was trying to kill a character in the early turns I would certainly be making use of character buffs.

[Kallas]

Shouldn't T5 be suffering less wounds than T3/4? Eliminator guns are S5 base, so would be wounding less, even with the Sergeant's Guided Fire. This is specifically referencing your "Executioner Round + Sergeant Buff" column, which lists T5 as having the same results as both T3/4.

[MajorNese]

Shouldn't T5 be suffering less wounds than T3/4? Eliminator guns are S5 base, so would be wounding less, even with the Sergeant's Guided Fire. This is specifically referencing your "Executioner Round + Sergeant Buff" column, which lists T5 as having the same results as both T3/4.

It wounds T5 on a 4+. Add RG trait (+1) and sarge trait (+1) you're back at 2+, same as T<5.

 

Guided Aim is wasted for chars T<5 when it comes to the to-wound roll, the only difference is MWs triggering on 4+ instead of 5+. Which boils down to the same thing, as it MWs in 1 out of 2 cases with 2 shots instead of 1 out of 3 with 3 shots.

[Brother Quixote]

Those numbers a bit conservative. Assume they always have re-rolls from auras, etc. If I was trying to kill a character in the early turns I would certainly be making use of character buffs.

 

You may have to change your thinking on that soon, after all you might be facing Raven Guard...

 

Seriously though, assuming rerolls is a bit of a mental trap.  You end up assuming your whole army has rerolls and they often physically can't.  It's also easy to forget to factor in the cost of the aura characters when deciding on unit effectiveness.

 

On a personal note, I find I get the expected unbuffed results only when I benefit from all the rerolls.

[Kallas]

 

Shouldn't T5 be suffering less wounds than T3/4? Eliminator guns are S5 base, so would be wounding less, even with the Sergeant's Guided Fire. This is specifically referencing your "Executioner Round + Sergeant Buff" column, which lists T5 as having the same results as both T3/4.

It wounds T5 on a 4+. Add RG trait (+1) and sarge trait (+1) you're back at 2+, same as T<5.

 

Guided Aim is wasted for chars T<5 when it comes to the to-wound roll, the only difference is MWs triggering on 4+ instead of 5+. Which boils down to the same thing, as it MWs in 1 out of 2 cases with 2 shots instead of 1 out of 3 with 3 shots.

 

Oh, of course - I forgot what forum I was in for minute! 

[MajorNese]

Factoring in rerolls is usually a bit of a trap. Especially in this case, as the eliminators need a good vantage point (which might be few and far inbetween). On the other hand, they don't really need rerolls that much, given how ridiculously good they become with RG buff against their chosen targets.

 

Which is how I intend to let them roll - as independent, board-wide threats. Last game I used them (pre V2 codex) I set them up in both corners - it was hilarious to see how hard it was for the enemy character to get out of LoS from both squads, seriously limiting movement options. And still getting shot at, even if at reduced effectiveness. But still damaging - so remaining out of LoS was even more important.

 

The only company for the lemonators would be a phobos captain. With recent changes to their carbine, it does become quite nice in Tactical doctrine - still only S4 with +1 to wound, but AP-3 (assault) and flat 3D. Added bonus would be the DS scrambler, sealing any gaps in the backfield and preventing charges from deep strike.

[Panzer]

Factoring in re-rolls is good to see the optimal average damage output, but things are rarely optimal. Getting line of sight, not wanting to move while the rest of your army moves forward and want to benefit from re-rolls as well, infiltrating into a good position in the first place are all extremely common things for Eliminators. You can't just place a Captain all over the board so all your units have re-rolls. ^^

[Claws and Effect]

I take advantage of the fact that they can deploy outside my deployment zone if there is a good place to put them in cover.

 

A squad of Eliminators can threaten nearly the entire table if they are deployed close to the center.

[MajorNese]

A squad of Eliminators can threaten nearly the entire table if they are deployed close to the center.

A squad of board-covering snipers deployed close to the center...let's just say that's not what I'd do with snipers.

I get that they can shoot at everything, but they can also be shot at from everything. And charged by anything intended for the midfield. That's too much attention for my taste, my midfield stuff usually gets worn down constantly.

 

The corner deployments I've used so far worked out better - as said, different firing arcs make your oppponent's positioning a nightmare. And unless that flank gets overrun, the Eliminators typically survive until the end of the game, given correct threat management. Which is always useful in the long run - besides always threatening everything, they make characters keep back that should have been in the thick of it, and given that the snipers stay there until end of the game, that's a threat that isn't going away without some serious attention. But yes, I've been a bit conservative when it comes to forward deployment.

[Panzer]

Well I do deploy mine in the middle as well if there are ruins where they can cover an entire floor so they can't get charged as easily. They are cheap for how tanky they are and kinda are the best protection for my characters I could wish for ... however I'm not a Raven Guard player, I'm a Blood Angels player, so they are a good bit less threatening so I don't mind using them as mostly distraction Carnifexes. :P