thewarriorhunter Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Without quoting everyone I agree that our army is about synergy and combos which I like, it means we have to play well and I like that. However a lot of our rules, that we know of, require many moving parts and some of those are dice rolls. The combos that are being thrown around are great and when they work it'll be great. But there's going to be lots of 'feels bad' when the teleport on the Chaplain dread is a 3 and everything breaks down. I want to play well, I want to synergize, but looking at things in a vacuum or only spouting out best case scenarios is going to lose more games than win. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 We HAVE to get out of the mentality that single pieces of what we have are bad because of what the other kids get. We are now all about synergy between units. Its obvious with our CT's and now our Character. We will see more of the same when we get the full list of Umbra powers. This part I agree with. Other Chapters are hammers to the face. Direct bludgeoning weapons. We're a knife in the back under cover of darkness. If we try to play like the more straightforward Chapters, we're going to lose. To leverage what we can do we need to put a little more thought into our list building and take into account how all the pieces work together. The rules we've seen so far indicate that GW DID pay attention to our lore and are making them play in a way that matches it. The Raven Guard will never engage in a frontal assault unless they have no other viable option. They are going to systematically tear down the enemy's support network and slaughter them when they can no longer mount an effective defense against them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluflash Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 We're assuming Shrike has the Phobos keyword for Temporal Corridor to work, and we'd also need a Charge after advancing strat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Here are the price leaks fro Faeit 212. Interesting that there's no dice for either RG or IH, but UM and WS got dice and there was the photo of the mispacked Sally dice. I want Shrike, a box of Eliminators (for two units total) and the supplement, but I think I might wait on the models to force myself to get some more backlog painted up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 28" movement is not reliable though, he's probably reliably moving 18/20 on average, and if he's advancing he's not shooting.Why? There's the Phobos power to move twice - Temporal Corridor. He'll actually move 28+D6" and can shoot AND charge after. He's absolutely brilliant as he can catch up to squads arriving from reserves to grant auras. Raven Guard are about the unit combos to get the abilities coalescing into something powerful. As soon as I saw Shrike I thought he's one of the best characters - certainly more useful than Calgar! Combine Shrike flying across the board with a teleporting Chaplain Dread that stops overwatch and has a +2 to charge? Now the opponent can lose multiple key units. This. We HAVE to get out of the mentality that single pieces of what we have are bad because of what the other kids get. We are now all about synergy between units. Its obvious with our CT's and now our Character. We will see more of the same when we get the full list of Umbra powers. You want to talk synergy? How about the Iron Father + a tech marine w/The Ironstone + a wall of dreads/tanks. Sure seems A LOT more synergistic than what we got. Hopefully this is all just a marketing blunder since half the stuff we got previewed was stuff we already had(ie who gives a :cuss:?) or stuff that just isnt good like 50% chance to do a single mortal wound to a single enemy but only if you make your coin flip charge roll. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archon_77 Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Actually I was thinking along the lines of synergy meaning something like Eliminators soften things up and then Shrike kills the reroll dude and then say, Van Vets clean things up. Not synergy as in "There's a buffbot in the middle of all these tanks". The difference is our IH buddies have one guy that synergies well with multiple units HIMSELF, and we are about having many units working together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Actually I was thinking along the lines of synergy meaning something like Eliminators soften things up and then Shrike kills the reroll dude and then say, Van Vets clean things up. Not synergy as in "There's a buffbot in the middle of all these tanks". The difference is our IH buddies have one guy that synergies well with multiple units HIMSELF, and we are about having many units working together. That just seems like somantics. IH's got a reason(they are good on the tabletop in a competitive and semi competitive setting) to bring thematic units, we did not.(so far) Hopefully this will all be moot when all the previews go up on saturday. Our stratagems, psychic powers, traits, and relics will make or break the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluflash Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I'm hoping for a assassain-like "Gain a CP when you kill a character" and/or "if you slay the enemy's warlord (debuff)". That would add more impact to what we're already gonna do well. An advance and charge strat would pair nicely with the fall back, shoot, and charge strat (and add more viability to Shrike). More deployment/movement shenanigans. All of these would help round out the corners on our somewhat disjointed abilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I'm hoping for a assassain-like "Gain a CP when you kill a character" and/or "if you slay the enemy's warlord (debuff)". That would add more impact to what we're already gonna do well. An advance and charge strat would pair nicely with the fall back, shoot, and charge strat (and add more viability to Shrike). More deployment/movement shenanigans. All of these would help round out the corners on our somewhat disjointed abilities. Yeah I want all that stuff too. If we got all that then I could see Raven Guard being scary. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I wouldn't be surprised if RG got options like a "Veteran Reivers" Strat (i.e. +1A and Ld), a Strat that lets RG Incursors target enemy Characters even if they are not the closest, a Strat that let's a RG Eliminator squad shoot twice, and a Strat that let's RG Phobos units (hopefully this includes Shrike) move a free D6" after deep striking (similar to Genestealer Cults). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguinaryGuardsman Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I wouldn't be surprised if RG got options like a "Veteran Reivers" Strat (i.e. +1A and Ld), a Strat that lets RG Incursors target enemy Characters even if they are not the closest, a Strat that let's a RG Eliminator squad shoot twice, and a Strat that let's RG Phobos units (hopefully this includes Shrike) move a free D6" after deep striking (similar to Genestealer Cults). Reivers would suck even with those buffs you suggested. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Yeah...with Shrike doing basically the same as before just a bit better, I'll rather stick with Issodon. I kinda dislike one-use CC suiciders, but I guess we'll see when the full supplement is out. And yes, I already called that charge aura update - GW wants to push primaris, so it now includes primaris. Also interesting to see that the distinction of Phobos armour is so consistent - phobos has the exact same characteristics, but a lot of special rules/abilities only work for Phobos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted September 13, 2019 Author Share Posted September 13, 2019 Yeah...with Shrike doing basically the same as before just a bit better, I'll rather stick with Issodon. I kinda dislike one-use CC suiciders, but I guess we'll see when the full supplement is out. And yes, I already called that charge aura update - GW wants to push primaris, so it now includes primaris. Also interesting to see that the distinction of Phobos armour is so consistent - phobos has the exact same characteristics, but a lot of special rules/abilities only work for Phobos. They seem to be setting Raven Guard up to be the Phobos army. They even went so far as to mention in the Codex that Shrike frequently sends out fully Phobos armored strike forces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 I'm very curious what the raven guard are going to get that sets them up for the beta strike they feel pushed towards. Is it just hug cover far back and try and keep out of los? Because even assuming that they'll have the tools to kill character knights and important characters on turn two, you still need to survive turn 1. That's the real issue. If the list has combos that require key units being alive or in a certain spot, you need to both stay alive and maintain board control until you can actually be special. Maybe that means tossing chaplain dreads up the board with shadow step to draw a lot of fire power as a distraction. Or pod squads. As it is, with the current information,ishagus hype is hard to swallow for shrike. He got a primaris bump up and that's really it over his old stats. He was panned before because he was a glass cannon that couldn't survive after he charged. Nothing has seemed to change; his pistol can't be relied on to kill a geq support character even with surgical strikes, he still wants to beat people up in melee and still wants to be with melee units. I think giving him damage 3 would have done the trick to make him a big enough threat, and really force opponent to react to him. It also would really push the solo Assassin vibe and make him terrifying on turn 2 for daemon princes and character knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 What if his cost is highly competitive? As he is he's the fastest Chapter master of the bunch, but he doesn't need to fly forward immediately. You can bolster an army then break him off to help something moving forward or assaulting. We also don't know what kind of deployment shenanigans RG will have access to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388404 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 If he's 100 points or there abouts he'd be fine, simply because the cost to get the chapter master aura is pretty much negligible. And ya, there's a lot hinging on the stratagems, but at the end of the day, you gotta ask how often shrike was taken before. The only thing that's going to make him more desirable is if there's some heavy phobos and jump synergy, or even more character killing bonuses so he ruin a knight-level opponent. If not, he's not going to be taken...again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lythari Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Let me make a guess at what Shrike will cost. Base Primaris Captain is 78 points Jump pack for a Captain is 19 points. Shrike's is better (14" move vs 12") A pair of lightning claws is 10 points Assault launchers are 5 points for D3 mortal wounds on the charge on a 4+. Shrike's is worse (only 1 wound) Let's assume the pistol is 5 points Let's assume the Chapter Master upgrade is 10 points Let's assume the re-roll charge aura is 8 points 78 + 19 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 10 + 8 = 135 If he's less than that i'll be happy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGatch113 Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 We HAVE to get out of the mentality that single pieces of what we have are bad because of what the other kids get. We are now all about synergy between units. Its obvious with our CT's and now our Character. We will see more of the same when we get the full list of Umbra powers. This part I agree with. Other Chapters are hammers to the face. Direct bludgeoning weapons. We're a knife in the back under cover of darkness. If we try to play like the more straightforward Chapters, we're going to lose. To leverage what we can do we need to put a little more thought into our list building and take into account how all the pieces work together. The rules we've seen so far indicate that GW DID pay attention to our lore and are making them play in a way that matches it. The Raven Guard will never engage in a frontal assault unless they have no other viable option. They are going to systematically tear down the enemy's support network and slaughter them when they can no longer mount an effective defense against them. Our Lore? Going back to the beginning, we were the drop pod chapter....scouts went forward and blazed the way for drop pod assault. Captains were supposed to have lightning claw command squads. Second set of rules made RG more assaulty and jump pack oriented. The old formations book brought back the drop pod element of the RG but that seems to now be abandoned. We weren't a sneaky guerilla chapter in the lore until recently. We were a frontal assault chapter using drop pods. That is to say, RG sneakiness was the same as every other chapter's sneakiness using scouts, but instead of a rhino rush we used a drop pod rush. The RG lore has been changed and perverted in many ways. And trying to play according to "lore" only brings problems. RG are a codex chapter. They can fight codex style if they want to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Let me make a guess at what Shrike will cost. Base Primaris Captain is 78 points Jump pack for a Captain is 19 points. Shrike's is better (14" move vs 12") A pair of lightning claws is 10 points Assault launchers are 5 points for D3 mortal wounds on the charge on a 4+. Shrike's is worse (only 1 wound) Let's assume the pistol is 5 points Let's assume the Chapter Master upgrade is 10 points Let's assume the re-roll charge aura is 8 points 78 + 19 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 10 + 8 = 135 If he's less than that i'll be happy. Prepare for disappointment, I suspect he will be 150 again, and come with a pamphlet that reads "You'll take your extra attack and wound and like it!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Shrike is not a Knight killer. Sadly for us Primaris players because Smash Captain ruins the theme. Still Knights are a thing any list should have been looking to counter before now so not that disasterous. Countering Ironhand Dreadnoughts might be though. Honestly I'll be pleased with the Dex if we get something resembling the second version of Strike from the Shadows (especially considering White Scar shenanigans) and the ability to redeploy troops aka GSC or UM rules allowing the redeploying of the units, but in our case anywhere outside the opponent deployment zone and 9" from enemy units - because ... Raven Guard. That with the Shadowstep should give up a real unique set of movement shenanigans to lay claim to being the covert operators of legend we're suppose to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 The WH steam today listed the IH character at 110 points. Think about that... If Shrike is even 135 it's still going to feel over costed for him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claws and Effect Posted September 14, 2019 Author Share Posted September 14, 2019 I've been keeping tabs on the Facebook Raven Guard group I'm in, and it's honestly pretty frustrating. I'm watching a bunch of people who play a Chapter FAMOUS for being masters of asymmetrical warfare who are flat out refusing to think outside the "pile everything into a reroll bubble" box that the game has become. C'mon people, you're RAVEN GUARD, not Imperial Fists. Let other Chapters cram everything into a reroll bubble. And then take their damn bubble away from them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Stick with us Claws ;) Between me, you, Major, Duz and the others, when the we have the supplement in our hands we'll shake out some optimal Firstborn, Primaris and mixed army build ideas that are fun and competitive. Leave the craziness for FB, Dakka, and others on those sites who don't understand the game is won in deployment, and maneuvering in the movement phase. I don't agree with Reese step by step by he mentioned something the other day. A good Raven Guard pilot is actually going to cause some "feel bad" moments when the opponent discovers half his characters died by T2 and all his best "Buff" or "Smash captain-ish" are no more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 There's no chance that Shrike will be 100 points. He still has the amazing CM aura and great movement and cc ability. 150 I'd expect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted September 14, 2019 Share Posted September 14, 2019 Which while agree with would make the Forgefather massively undercosted compared to other Special Characters ... goven the beta tester responses on the podcast its hard to believe that can't see the comparative values being represented aren't that disproportionate? I'm okay with getting a true value on Shrike right off the bat. Just means I won't be accounting for point adjustments come Chapter Approved :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357539-what-are-you-looking-forward-to-most-in-the-rg-supplement/page/16/#findComment-5388519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.