Wolves 2.0 Speculation

[PeteySödes]

Alls’ I’m saying is I don’t think the lamenting here is excessive, yet. We have a wonderful group of Space Vikings here that largely remain positive and constructive. I’ve said since our dex dropped that it’s an incredibly fun and fluffy book.

 

My main gripe is the shoddy warcom edit that made it sound like we were getting more than expected. Between that and not knowing when we may get some love, I make silly traitor memes.

 

I’m still rocking my ETL vows and I’m still going to break some people at LVO and other events. I’m just blowing off steam because I’m apparently going to sweat a bit doing it.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

looks like it's decided - i'm doing some reivers next

 

I'm most excited for the infiltrators (hope a point decrease) and eliminators (buffs look good)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Honestly I agree with the spirit of no doctrines, we dont follow the codex after all. I just dislike the disadvantage inherent to it.

 

Heavily disagree with this, particularly because I'm a huge 30k/Legions fan. I don't believe there is anything about having access to these doctrines that makes Space Wolves any more codex compliant. Space Wolves are Space Marines after all.. and should be completely consistent with other Space Marines in how they fight. This reeks of the lame duck excuses people used to give for why Space Wolves shouldn't use jump packs, or teleporters or flyers, when in reality, the Legions were operating the Space Wolves utilized all of them to defeat the enemy. 

 

There's plenty of proprietary uniqueness to the SWs that a little access to doctrines are not automatically going to cause the whole Chapter to be a branch of vanilla compliance. 

[Wispy]

well if you dont think space wolves would limit themselves to any such restrictions, why not just run your Wolves as Codex?

[NightHowler]

why not just run your Wolves as Codex?

I only read this part of your post and it almost gave me heresy. I should really learn to read more closely, lol.

[Guest]

well if you dont think space wolves would limit themselves to any such restrictions, why not just run your Wolves as Codex?

 

 

If you are running a pure primaris force there are great options in the codex. The only reason why I wouldnt is wulfen, love me some shields walls.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

 

 

Honestly I agree with the spirit of no doctrines, we dont follow the codex after all. I just dislike the disadvantage inherent to it.

Heavily disagree with this, particularly because I'm a huge 30k/Legions fan. I don't believe there is anything about having access to these doctrines that makes Space Wolves any more codex compliant. Space Wolves are Space Marines after all.. and should be completely consistent with other Space Marines in how they fight. This reeks of the lame duck excuses people used to give for why Space Wolves shouldn't use jump packs, or teleporters or flyers, when in reality, the Legions were operating the Space Wolves utilized all of them to defeat the enemy.

 

There's plenty of proprietary uniqueness to the SWs that a little access to doctrines are not automatically going to cause the whole Chapter to be a branch of vanilla compliance.

I certainly don't follow the whole no jump pack or alot of the other odd stuff that people have put out there over the years but heres where I disagree with you. GW states the following "Combat Doctrines represent the structured way in which adherents of the Codex Astartes overcome any adversary." Space wolves very specically deviate from how the codex says to fight. Should we eventually get some sort of doctrine like effect? Yes but why would we get an effect that follos the codex way of doing things when we said FU to gman when he tried to roll that out. Also the 30k analogy is not completely relevant as the codex is not really a 30k era thing, it's a post HH creation that some legions followed and others did not. Those that did not have quite a valid fluff reason not to receive access to a doctrine lifted from the codex.

 

Edit cuz phones are hard to type on lol.

[Karhedron]

I'm most excited for the infiltrators (hope a point decrease) and eliminators (buffs look good)

Yes, Sniper Eliminators do look good (especially given our lack of sniper scouts). Las Fusils will probably be price dependent but I feel I have adequate anti-tank in my army currently.

 

If Wulfen do get the +1A from the new codex, I may finally give in and build myself a squad. 5 in a Land Raider, 15 BCs in an LRC, buffed by a Wolf Priest could be very tasty.

 

I wonder if the Impulsor Shield Dome just protects infantry or if vehicles can benefit too? Land Raiders with a 4++ might suddenly become viable.

[Yoyo ninja]

 

I'm most excited for the infiltrators (hope a point decrease) and eliminators (buffs look good)

Yes, Sniper Eliminators do look good (especially given our lack of sniper scouts). Las Fusils will probably be price dependent but I feel I have adequate anti-tank in my army currently.

 

If Wulfen do get the +1A from the new codex, I may finally give in and build myself a squad. 5 in a Land Raider, 15 BCs in an LRC, buffed by a Wolf Priest could be very tasty.

 

I wonder if the Impulsor Shield Dome just protects infantry or if vehicles can benefit too? Land Raiders with a 4++ might suddenly become viable.

I hadn't thought about the 4++ on vehicles, that would be very tasty. A couple landraiders packed to the rafters with bloodclaws and wulfen, then a couple impulsors rolling up behind with a small squad of intercessors in each as fire support. That would deliver a huge hammer blow to most things. Hmmm, I feel a perchase coming on!

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

So after sleeping on it I think my initial saltiness has abated and I am on the whole happy with what we get out of this. I like the new units and am pleased with shock assault. I think my gut negative reaction was due to the past where GW made us wait so long and a fear that its happening again. But I suppose we can do nothing but wait and see and we at least get some new stuff in the meantime and hopefully when our turn comes it will be a glorious release.

[Karhedron]

I wonder if the Impulsor Shield Dome just protects infantry or if vehicles can benefit too? Land Raiders with a 4++ might suddenly become viable.

Actually, I may have made a mistake in assuming that the Shield dome protects other units. Re-reading the article, it may be that the Dome just gives the Impulsor itself a 4++. Otherwise you will see Impulsors in every marine army.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Yeah that appears to be a 4++ for the impulsor so not an imperial custom force field.

[Karhedron]

Yeah that appears to be a 4++ for the impulsor so not an imperial custom force field.

On reflection, I suspect you are correct. I was mislead by the phrase "To better protect its valuable cargo, an Impulsor can be equipped with a shield dome". I realise now that this probably only protects the valuable cargo while they are embarked on said Impulsor.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

Honestly I agree with the spirit of no doctrines, we dont follow the codex after all. I just dislike the disadvantage inherent to it.

Heavily disagree with this, particularly because I'm a huge 30k/Legions fan. I don't believe there is anything about having access to these doctrines that makes Space Wolves any more codex compliant. Space Wolves are Space Marines after all.. and should be completely consistent with other Space Marines in how they fight. This reeks of the lame duck excuses people used to give for why Space Wolves shouldn't use jump packs, or teleporters or flyers, when in reality, the Legions were operating the Space Wolves utilized all of them to defeat the enemy.

 

There's plenty of proprietary uniqueness to the SWs that a little access to doctrines are not automatically going to cause the whole Chapter to be a branch of vanilla compliance.

I certainly don't follow the whole no jump pack or alot of the other odd stuff that people have put out there over the years but heres where I disagree with you. GW states the following "Combat Doctrines represent the structured way in which adherents of the Codex Astartes overcome any adversary." Space wolves very specically deviate from how the codex says to fight. Should we eventually get some sort of doctrine like effect? Yes but why would we get an effect that follos the codex way of doing things when we said FU to gman when he tried to roll that out. Also the 30k analogy is not completely relevant as the codex is not really a 30k era thing, it's a post HH creation that some legions followed and others did not. Those that did not have quite a valid fluff reason not to receive access to a doctrine lifted from the codex.

 

Edit cuz phones are hard to type on lol.

 

 

Honestly brother, I think GW changed that last minute to reduce confusion for the non-codex compliant chapters. When I read it early yesterday it stated "Combat Doctrines represent the structured way in which all Space Marine Chapters..." etc. I don't know if anyone else read the same one, but "all Space Marine Chapters" was definitely in their and "Codex Astartes" as not. I'm going to guess GW realized they made a mistake and edited it on Warhammer Community. You don't have to explain how SWs deviate from the codex to fight.. if I've known about the fluff blurb stating SWs "fight with both feet on the ground as Russ intended" I've obviously been playing SWs long enough to understand what's up. 

 

The 30k thing is completely relevant though. There is nothing about the change from Legion to Chapter that should effect something like combat doctrines..

 

Edit: To give you a better response to your points, I did not see doctrines as a thing that only adherents to the Codex benefit from.. just in theory that seems silly to me, but again, I was thinking about language written in the article before the change. To me it makes more sense that all Space Marines receive a certain level of training and have a certain level of capability because they are indeed Space Marines, there is then nuanced specialization down to Ch. 7. Any Space Marine is a more elite solider and all Space Marines across the board, codex compliant or not, should have rules to reflect this. That's what the doctrines appeared to be to me, and I thought that made sense and represented the nature of a Space Marine.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Agree to disagree but I definitely don't think that spacewolf basic training is identical to ultra basic training especially after the primarchs took over and later again post heresy as more and more individuality arose between the legions. I saw/see combat doctrines not as inherent space marine tactic but a trained one from the codex. Hence why I think we should get a similar but different ability. And if they changed the words then I understand your side more.

[Wispy]

 

why not just run your Wolves as Codex?

I only read this part of your post and it almost gave me heresy. I should really learn to read more closely, lol.

oh yeah i would never do it. just thought thought it was a curious 'having your cake and eating it too' moment that i was responding too.

[Karhedron]

My problem with the lack of Doctrines is that Codex Marines got new buffed traits. No complaints from me, they needed them. Our trait is still pretty good and will remain so with the new +1A on the charge. But Doctrines are a whole new stack of army-wide bonuses on top that should be available to us. I am used to not getting all the shiny new codex toys but this really does shuffle BAs, DAs and SWs to the bottom of the pile.
 
Now we are in a situation where it could be a very long time until we get our next codex. Our current one is only 12 months old. If they update it they will be accused of cash grabbing and if they don't, we will be left with a codex that struggles even more. GW really seem to have chosen a "worst of both worlds" approach here.

Either we should get access to Doctrines as they stand or we should get some sort of indication that we will get our own equivalent (possibly in CA). Let's face, we were hardly top tier and this feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth.

Doctrines based on the codex may not be entirely fluffy for us but they are definitely powerful and we should either have access to them or be given something equivalent. It may be a long time before our codex gets updated.

[greysquigg]

They must have a really small team working on 40k to make a blunder this massive. I have deja vu. 

[Guest Triszin]

I think it's a good sign of things to come, but I'd rather have those doctrines built into our troops.

 

Yes it would make them more expensive, but imagine have a " long fang doctrines" built into long fangs, hell blaster, eliminators, scouts

 

And so on.

 

Blood claw doctrine, inceptors, reivers

 

Grey Slayer doctrine and do on

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I’m really hoping for a chapter approved update. It’s probably the best way to update the divergent chapters. Or just PDF whatever doctrine equivalent they want to give the divergent chapters.

 

I’d be okay with a fast update to the codex too. I refrained from buying the hard copy due to the saga problem and general bad feelings towards having to wait longer for it. I know a fast codex update would bother a lot of people. Having to pay again for an expensive book wouldn’t be fun.

 

The worst thing would be waiting 1.5+ years for an updated codex. Which may happen.

[Bulwyf]

I’m really hoping for a chapter approved update. It’s probably the best way to update the divergent chapters. Or just PDF whatever doctrine equivalent they want to give the divergent chapters.

 

I’d be okay with a fast update to the codex too. I refrained from buying the hard copy due to the saga problem and general bad feelings towards having to wait longer for it. I know a fast codex update would bother a lot of people. Having to pay again for an expensive book wouldn’t be fun.

 

The worst thing would be waiting 1.5+ years for an updated codex. Which may happen.

 

We waited that long in 8th for a codex that was clearly written a year plus earlier but withheld due to release schedule. We got shafted hard by that wait. We got shafted hard by the actual codex being terrible. Now these updates to C:SM that don't apply to SW is another shaft.

 

We were already tied with GK as the worst army in 8th edition. The power gap is now even wider between C:SM and the non codex astartes. Unless our doctrine equivalents come out with Russ returning with a 40k model there's no justification for yet another shafting.

[PeteySödes]

 

I’m really hoping for a chapter approved update. It’s probably the best way to update the divergent chapters. Or just PDF whatever doctrine equivalent they want to give the divergent chapters.

 

I’d be okay with a fast update to the codex too. I refrained from buying the hard copy due to the saga problem and general bad feelings towards having to wait longer for it. I know a fast codex update would bother a lot of people. Having to pay again for an expensive book wouldn’t be fun.

 

The worst thing would be waiting 1.5+ years for an updated codex. Which may happen.

 

We waited that long in 8th for a codex that was clearly written a year plus earlier but withheld due to release schedule. We got shafted hard by that wait. We got shafted hard by the actual codex being terrible. Now these updates to C:SM that don't apply to SW is another shaft.

 

We were already tied with GK as the worst army in 8th edition. The power gap is now even wider between C:SM and the non codex astartes. Unless our doctrine equivalents come out with Russ returning with a 40k model there's no justification for yet another shafting.

 

 

Don't make me put a "shaft" jar in the Fang for you... ;)

[lonewolf81]

so ultramarines became super good....they ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons army wide for free (huge for marine vehicles) and their marines always rapid fire their bolters...for free....and we havent seen,strats,powers,litanies etc....YET

[PeteySödes]

so ultramarines became super good....they ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons army wide for free (huge for marine vehicles) and their marines always rapid fire their bolters...for free....and we havent seen,strats,powers,litanies etc....YET

 

Yea its looking really dirty. All we can hope for now is the same loving treatment when the time comes.

[Bulwyf]

so ultramarines became super good....they ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons army wide for free (huge for marine vehicles) and their marines always rapid fire their bolters...for free....and we havent seen,strats,powers,litanies etc....YET

 

I was only half joking earlier in the year when I said that GW was not so subtly trying to force SM players to switch to Smurfs. We haven't even seen their full supplement and the power difference is significant.