On Primaris and the future of 40k

[Red_Shift]

They are eight foot tall bioengineered superhumans yet they need a hockey mask to be terrifying. That's even assuming a tyrannid can be terrified. I suppose the Capri shorts could be scary. Everything about them, from concept to execution, just fails from the get go. In my opinion. As a unit choice they lack the equipment to really make an impact. It's a misfire of a unit, without getting into the idea of why Guilliman would sanction the use of a terror group when his primarch book is mostly about him refusing to use more extreme units like destroyers.

 

The design time, effort and resources would have been better used on a tacticus assault variant, as others have opined.

[Volt]

 

Reivers don't have chainswords. So meh.

You can replace the Combat Knife appearance with a Chainsword appearance. There is absolutely no mechanical difference at all. If the visual is all that's needed, I'd do it.

 

Sorry to say it because yours is a well thought out post but reivers fail at a basic level.

At a basic level? What basic level is that?

 

Where they fail, IMO, is that they take up an Elite slot without having the capability to actually upgrade them to an "elite" load out (presumably due to not having any of the upgrades available on sprue), and the Terror Troops rule isn't equivalent to having an inherent Infiltrate rule at some potency level, which they should have had (even if it was smaller than 9"). I'm not sure the Shock Grenades really make up for it, since it still requires a successful attack roll for.

 

But that's hardly "basic."

 

The issue isn't that they're competing with assault marines as they are actually competing with Vanguard Veterans. They are more or less better than assault marines barring the lack of flamers, but lack the weapon options of Vanguard Vets. And considering you normally want to fill out elite slots by either spamming ALL THE DREADNOUGHTS or using Vets galore with the new drop pod buff - it really begs the question why the hell are Reivers in the elite slot. If they were Fast Attack nobody would really care, it's not like people field lots of assault marines anyway, and they'd probably see a lot more use.

[Bryan Blaire]

They are eight foot tall bioengineered superhumans yet they need a hockey mask to be terrifying. That's even assuming a tyrannid can be terrified. I suppose the Capri shorts could be scary. Everything about them, from concept to execution, just fails from the get go. In my opinion. As a unit choice they lack the equipment to really make an impact. It's a misfire of a unit, without getting into the idea of why Guilliman would sanction the use of a terror group when his primarch book is mostly about him refusing to use more extreme units like destroyers.

 

The design time, effort and resources would have been better used on a tacticus assault variant, as others have opined.

Well, the armor actually makes some sense based on what it's supposed to do, and the helms are easily solved. The rules stuff I sort of agree with, already mentioned the lack of upgrades (should have been more like the Vanguard Vets). Personally, I think the Terror concept is misplaced, it would have been much better termed as Shock, similar to the Grenade name.

 

And just having a Tacticus variant wouldn't have precluded the design time, effort, and resources amounting to exactly the same unit, but in Tacticus armor. That particular train of logic doesn't go far - just changing the armor type doesn't inherently change anything else, it certainly doesn't guarantee any changes in the mind(s) of the designer(s).

 

The issue isn't that they're competing with assault marines

Yes, Volt, that is actually the issue that was brought up that I was originally addressing that led to all later discussion. The topic addressed was "They should have made a close combat equivalent in Tacticus armor instead of the Reivers, which don't fill that role."

 

as they are actually competing with Vanguard Veterans. ... it really begs the question why the hell are Reivers in the elite slot.

Agreed and already stated in the post you quoted.

[Leif Bearclaw]

But again, if you round up the trinity from the get go, there is literally no incentive for later purchases, since you already have all that you need. Plus Reavers got a new lease of life with the new codex, White Scar ones anyway.

 

Sorry, but this just doesn't add up. If that was the case, we wouldn't have Infiltrators and Incursors (plus arguably carbine Reivers) as they're more 'line Marines with bolter weaponry' when we already have Intercessors.

 

 

And yes, GW is one of the most profitable companies in the world. Not in net amount, sure, but how many businesses do you know that report over 70% profit margin ? For reference, the tobacco industry is around 40%, the worldwide average is below 10% and retailers like Walmart are below 2%.

Eh? Where are you getting that number? I'm also not 100% what you mean by profit margin here. In 2018 GW reported total revenues of £219.9 million, which led to a net income (so profit after tax) of £59.7 million. 27% of their total earnings, not 70. Which is only slightly higher than that of British American Tobacco at 25%. But they're a ways behind companies like Industrial and Commerical Bank of China (41%), JP Morgan (30%), Agricultural Bank of China (33%), Bank of America (31%) and Saudi Aramco (31%). Besides, that's kinda irrelevant, as those firms are listed along with companies like Apple (22%) and Samsung (16%) as the 'most profitable companies in the world' because the real metric for most profitable seems to be 'who makes the most profit' not 'who has the best net revenue:total revenue ratio'.

 

 

So on the fallacy of Reivers aren't an "Assault Marine" equivalent or didn't fill that role for the initial roll-out: if you do a basic squad comparison, that's exactly what they do, and have some trade offs between benefits from the two squads.

 

No, they didn't. They were a unit with a completely different set of tactical fluff and 'feel', far closer to Scouts (though this is still somewhat flimsy imo) than Assault Marines. A 'Tacitus Assault Marine' would have made more sense thematically, and practically, than Reivers. Reivers are a bad concept, poorly executed (especially now Incursors exist in the same 'Phobos dudes with knives' niche). Hellblasters and Intercessors both brought some extra punch to go with their boosted stats (AP on the bolt rifles, and copious plasma). Reivers brought nothing. Making a Tacitus assault unit would have made the 'basic Primaris' dudes more visually cohesive (a big plus in my book) and should have brought a but more punch than Reivers ended up with (as it strikes me the 'spooky' morale stuff was meant to compensate, but it just didn't work). Plus it would have left the 'Reiver Space' unoccupied for a true elite choice further down the road. Something like 'Destroyers V2' rather than the anaemic 'spooky guys with knives' we got. And if you're worried about 'another Primaris kit is too many', just fold Incursors into my version of Reivers. Which would kinda make sense anyway, why do Incursors even exist? They're just a bizarre choice to spend resources on, when you already have Phobos armoured Bolter guys (Infiltrators) and Knife Guys (Reivers).

 

 

 

If you mean "basic" MkX in that there isn't any special lore or special rules for Tacticus (at least at this time, they aren't precluded from adding them if they wanted), then basic Marine armor is Mk7 also by those same elements (which I would disagree with also).

The analogy doesn't quite fit imo, but kinda, yes. Power Armour (of which MkVII is the most prevalent) is the basic Marine armour. It's the standard form, worn by the majority of the troopers and is the most generalist armour in use by the Astartes. PA for most duties, TDA for the really dangerous stuff, Scout Armour for the sneaky recon stuff. Tacitus armour is the 'basic' form. Phobos is the stripped down, lighter variant, Gravis is the heavy duty variant.

[Bryan Blaire]

... Reivers are a bad concept, poorly executed ... Making a Tacitus assault unit would have made the 'basic Primaris' dudes more visually cohesive (a big plus in my book) and should have brought a but more punch than Reivers ended up with (as it strikes me the 'spooky' morale stuff was meant to compensate, but it just didn't work).

Well, I wasn't addressing fluff, since there's no objective standard - hence my actual rules breakdown, which bears out exactly what I said.

 

As far as the "Tacticus Assault Variant" - as I already said, there is no evidence that anything would have been different about them, so what they "should" have done/brought has no connection to anything except what any individual thinks - they very well could have been identical to the Reivers, just with heavier armor - none of us actually know. You can "should" all you want, but it's meaningless if you aren't one of the GW designers. As far as "should" is concerned, the Reivers do exactly what the designers "should'd" them to do. We'll see exactly how the Tacticus "close combat" variant is set up with when they get to that release window (which could come after the Gravis one for all anyone outside of GW knows).

 

And as far as the 'visual cohesiveness' of the Dark Imperium box, in that first VoxCast, Jes Goodwin says that the Dark Imperium box was specifically done to give you a "grab bag" of the various armor types, and it seems like the entire first release followed this trend, since it was comprised of all the armor types. They weren't going for 'visually cohesive' for the force in that box or release, so it did exactly what was intended. Our feelings on the issue don't mean anything and are not determinative for the release, especially seeing as Any Tacticus variants are already done concept and likely modeling wise, it's just a matter of production and release on GW's schedule.

 

The analogy doesn't quite fit imo, but kinda, yes. Power Armour (of which MkVII is the most prevalent) is the basic Marine armour. It's the standard form, worn by the majority of the troopers and is the most generalist armour in use by the Astartes. PA for most duties, TDA for the really dangerous stuff, Scout Armour for the sneaky recon stuff. Tacitus armour is the 'basic' form. Phobos is the stripped down, lighter variant, Gravis is the heavy duty variant.

Now I see what you are saying - the Codex does say that Intercessor Squads are the "strong core" - however, Infiltrators are also Battleline tasked, they just probably use that variant less because there's not as much call for it (even though from what we can see, it's, at least rules-wise, just as durable as the Tacticus armor, but that may be down to limited distinction available from a single d6 roll).

[Vermintide]

I don't think the "light armour" concept necessarily has to be accounted for in the level of protection. There are considerations that are not represented in game at all.

For instance, while Phobos offers the same level of protection as Tacticus, it is lightweight and features some kind of sound damping. The inner workings of this armour must surely be more complex, and require much more in depth maintenance rituals in order to continue operating at peak effeciency. This means that while it's an ideal choice for infiltrating troops, battleline marines would probably want a more rugged, durable variant of the armour. It's the same dependable ceramite plating, but probably much less labour intensive and logistically taxing to equip large numbers of marines with.

(While we are on the subject, are suits of power armour considered to have a machine spirit?)

[Marshal Rohr]

Do Primaris even do ritual armor maintenance? Seems counter intuitive since the armor is all new and flies in the face of their advanced sci go warrior aesthetic. There arent any relic items for Primaris to maintain.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Given the attitude of the Imperium towards technology, new or old, I would say yes. They've got reliquaries on their sprues, and Jes has explained that the 3 pouches of ammo for the Eliminators have skulls on them so they can touch the bullets against the face of the Emperor to bless the shot. They're definitely still semi-religious with their tech.

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe, but that seems really at odds with what Jes also mentioned about cleaning away the slate and aesthetic of the marine relic kit. You might carry the finger bones of Sergeant X the Martyr, but you aren’t wearing his mark 4 armor plate that’s been passed down for two thousand years.

[Bryan Blaire]

Maybe, but that seems really at odds with what Jes also mentioned about cleaning away the slate and aesthetic of the marine relic kit. You might carry the finger bones of Sergeant X the Martyr, but you aren’t wearing his mark 4 armor plate that’s been passed down for two thousand years.

No, but Jes does talk about keeping a favored pauldron, or helm, etc. We don't really know for sure, but there may even be a way to incorporate part of a breastplate, or greave, etc., into a MkX armor component - it seems somewhat unlikely to me, but it's possible until GW says it's not (assuming you want to go by what GW says, I really don't).

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

No, but Jes does talk about keeping a favored pauldron, or helm, etc. We don't really know for sure, but there may even be a way to incorporate part of a breastplate, or greave, etc., into a MkX armor component - it seems somewhat unlikely to me, but it's possible until GW says it's not (assuming you want to go by what GW says, I really don't).

 

 

Isn't Mk. 10 the most moddable power armor to date, with several different armor types that are all based on the same armor system? Why does it seem unlikely that this pattern, would be backwards compatible? The revealed shrike literally has mk 6 corvus helm on the belt. Are you saying it's only for nostalgia and that it can't actually be used? 

 

Granted, I know of no proof either way yet either, but it does seem to me, it's more likely than not that older parts are usable

[Bryan Blaire]

Not all components are plug and play or even able to be sliced out and fused to something even if software is backward compatible, etc. You can't run a x86 chipset in a Windows 10 OS system, even though there's backward compatibility software inherent in the OS - it only goes so far, but the BIOS and other firmware won't allow it even if you could get the hardware to marry up.

 

I'm actually not making any assumptions at all, but no, I don't know that you could take a Mk4 breastplate off and just glue it into a MkX frame, widen the outsides some, and call it a day. There may need to be extensive work done that would render it no longer the relic breastplate - would the Marine actually consider it the relic, etc.?

 

--------------

 

I mean, the Ultramarines Supplement states that the Armour of Heraclus that Calgar wears is a "revolutionary adaptation of the iconic Armour of Antilochus" meaning that armor can be reformed into MkX, but it does sort of become something new in the adaptation - how much of a Chapter's armor would be considered to go through the process?

[jaxom]

So on the fallacy of Reivers aren't an "Assault Marine" equivalent or didn't fill that role for the initial roll-out: if you do a basic squad comparison, that's exactly what they do, and have some trade offs between benefits from the two squads.

 

*SNIP*

 

So for squad basics, yes, the Reivers and Assault Marines do, in fact, fulfill the same close combat roll.

 

 

Where they fail, IMO, is that they take up an Elite slot without having the capability to actually upgrade them to an "elite" load out (presumably due to not having any of the upgrades available on sprue), and the Terror Troops rule isn't equivalent to having an inherent Infiltrate rule at some potency level, which they should have had (even if it was smaller than 9"). I'm not sure the Shock Grenades really make up for it, since it still requires a successful attack roll for.

 

 As a unit choice they lack the equipment to really make an impact.

 

 

 

So on the fallacy of Reivers aren't an "Assault Marine" equivalent or didn't fill that role for the initial roll-out: if you do a basic squad comparison, that's exactly what they do, and have some trade offs between benefits from the two squads.

 

No, they didn't. They were a unit with a completely different set of tactical fluff and 'feel', far closer to Scouts (though this is still somewhat flimsy imo) than Assault Marines. A 'Tacitus Assault Marine' would have made more sense thematically, and practically, than Reivers. Reivers are a bad concept, poorly executed (especially now Incursors exist in the same 'Phobos dudes with knives' niche). Hellblasters and Intercessors both brought some extra punch to go with their boosted stats (AP on the bolt rifles, and copious plasma). Reivers brought nothing. Making a Tacitus assault unit would have made the 'basic Primaris' dudes more visually cohesive (a big plus in my book) and should have brought a but more punch than Reivers ended up with (as it strikes me the 'spooky' morale stuff was meant to compensate, but it just didn't work). Plus it would have left the 'Reiver Space' unoccupied for a true elite choice further down the road. Something like 'Destroyers V2' rather than the anaemic 'spooky guys with knives' we got. And if you're worried about 'another Primaris kit is too many', just fold Incursors into my version of Reivers. Which would kinda make sense anyway, why do Incursors even exist? They're just a bizarre choice to spend resources on, when you already have Phobos armoured Bolter guys (Infiltrators) and Knife Guys (Reivers).

 

 

TL;DR: The current rules for Reivers don't support what they're supposed to do and instead place them in competition with units that have rules and tools which back up what they're for.

 

I think the rule designers have a major problem that any on-table unit that has behind-the-line functionality. If I had to spitball of the top of my head a way to make "terror troops" beyond -1 Ld, then I can think of two things to start: penalty to command points or mortal wounds to units before the first turn. Give them something that other marine units can't bring to the table in one form or another.

[Bryan Blaire]

What about something like 'unit becomes unable to be targeted with Stratagems this round' or some such? Assuming the unit could actually be affected by terror, and Reivers actually have something to make them substantially more terrifying than the normal generation of transhuman dread Astartes are supposed to inspire anyway.

[Volt]

 

So on the fallacy of Reivers aren't an "Assault Marine" equivalent or didn't fill that role for the initial roll-out: if you do a basic squad comparison, that's exactly what they do, and have some trade offs between benefits from the two squads.

 

*SNIP*

 

So for squad basics, yes, the Reivers and Assault Marines do, in fact, fulfill the same close combat roll.

 

 

Where they fail, IMO, is that they take up an Elite slot without having the capability to actually upgrade them to an "elite" load out (presumably due to not having any of the upgrades available on sprue), and the Terror Troops rule isn't equivalent to having an inherent Infiltrate rule at some potency level, which they should have had (even if it was smaller than 9"). I'm not sure the Shock Grenades really make up for it, since it still requires a successful attack roll for.

 

 As a unit choice they lack the equipment to really make an impact.

 

 

 

So on the fallacy of Reivers aren't an "Assault Marine" equivalent or didn't fill that role for the initial roll-out: if you do a basic squad comparison, that's exactly what they do, and have some trade offs between benefits from the two squads.

 

No, they didn't. They were a unit with a completely different set of tactical fluff and 'feel', far closer to Scouts (though this is still somewhat flimsy imo) than Assault Marines. A 'Tacitus Assault Marine' would have made more sense thematically, and practically, than Reivers. Reivers are a bad concept, poorly executed (especially now Incursors exist in the same 'Phobos dudes with knives' niche). Hellblasters and Intercessors both brought some extra punch to go with their boosted stats (AP on the bolt rifles, and copious plasma). Reivers brought nothing. Making a Tacitus assault unit would have made the 'basic Primaris' dudes more visually cohesive (a big plus in my book) and should have brought a but more punch than Reivers ended up with (as it strikes me the 'spooky' morale stuff was meant to compensate, but it just didn't work). Plus it would have left the 'Reiver Space' unoccupied for a true elite choice further down the road. Something like 'Destroyers V2' rather than the anaemic 'spooky guys with knives' we got. And if you're worried about 'another Primaris kit is too many', just fold Incursors into my version of Reivers. Which would kinda make sense anyway, why do Incursors even exist? They're just a bizarre choice to spend resources on, when you already have Phobos armoured Bolter guys (Infiltrators) and Knife Guys (Reivers).

 

 

TL;DR: The current rules for Reivers don't support what they're supposed to do and instead place them in competition with units that have rules and tools which back up what they're for.

 

I think the rule designers have a major problem that any on-table unit that has behind-the-line functionality. If I had to spitball of the top of my head a way to make "terror troops" beyond -1 Ld, then I can think of two things to start: penalty to command points or mortal wounds to units before the first turn. Give them something that other marine units can't bring to the table in one form or another.

 

One thing that could make them useful is if you slapped a rule on Reivers that allowed them to "snipe" HQ's with their bolter carbines to simulate them sowing terror.

[Haywire]

Or forcing leadership tests on any enemy unit within a certain radius of the Reivers that has a leadership score equal or lower than a set value?

[The Unseen]

If Reivers could infiltrate, they'd be worth taking. But getting stuck with deepstriking with what amounts to regular bolters or pistols and knives mean they don't contribute anything worthwhile till turn 3.

 

They could also use stuff like AP-1 on their blades to match with their AP-1 pistols, a better way of removing overwatch than a grenade throw, etc, but mainly they just need a way to contribute their strengths (fairly durable for the cost melee dudes) in a reasonable time fashion. If they could infiltrate, they'd actually be a scout analogue that could see play, with the grav-chutes/grapnels letting them have options. Incursors are similar, but they explicitly go after cover-campers with their mediocre bolters, and are not melee oriented. Infiltrators are a defensive unit, not something you aggressively push into your opponents face.

 

But I also think that all 3, or at least 2 of them, could've been rolled into 1 unit entry. At this point we have 3 "sneaky" units that all do *almost* but not quite the same thing, and it seems that their rules have suffered from needing to separate them. Either they should've been more different, or made into load-out choices outright.

 

I feel that Incursors/Infilitrators could've explicitly been a recon unit, and let them choose between scrambling stuff around them (12" no deep strike bubble) or co-ordinating friendly transmissions (captain/lieutenant infinite range) each turn.  The mine could've just been an upgrade that mimicked the cluster mine strat, when they fall back, they lead the enemy into the mine, or triggered whenever the unit was assaulted, or something, rather than this weird token placement. And that could've thematiclly made them bolter/shotgun scout replacements, reivers for ccw/pistols, and eliminators obviously for snipers.

Instead we have this weird overlap of 4 units trying to take the place of effectively 1, and either doing so poorly or costing too much.

 

Also, can we can get some shotguns already? Shotguns for close range recon specialists are cool, even if it isn't the most realistic.

[Ishagu]

I value Reivers because they arrive from reserves. It's different from infiltration and people need to understand there is a different value and play to both.

[Vermintide]

But I also think that all 3, or at least 2 of them, could've been rolled into 1 unit entry. At this point we have 3 "sneaky" units that all do *almost* but not quite the same thing, and it seems that their rules have suffered from needing to separate them. Either they should've been more different, or made into load-out choices outright.

 

That just about sums it up. I've been trying to figure this out myself for a while. I really want to like Reivers, they're easily the best model of the Primaris range, but the rules put them in a very awkward niche.

 

I think what it comes down to is that they were trying to be careful to limit turn 1 charge potential. If they made Reivers the true Scout analogue, with infiltrate and CCWs, it could be argued they'd be too powerful starting the game in charge range. Based on the fact the other variants of phobos lack CCWs, and reivers can only deepstrike, we can conclude that they didn't want that to be a viable option.

 

Which sucks, because that's exactly what I Wish I could use them for :D

[BitsHammer]

From the WD leaks on https://www.miniwars.eu/2019/09/white-dwarf-angeles-oscuros-primaris.html?m=1 we now have Deathwatch and Ravenguard Primaris.

 

Looks like the studio is breaking down that wall already.

[Marshal Reinhard]

we now have Deathwatch and Ravenguard Primaris.

 

Pssst! DeathWING and RavenWING, brutha 

 

On a different note, Deathwing I can sort of see, but what does the Ravenwing Primaris actually do? Surpressors? 

[Ishagu]

 

 

we now have Deathwatch and Ravenguard Primaris.

Pssst! DeathWING and RavenWING, brutha

 

On a different note, Deathwing I can sort of see, but what does the Ravenwing Primaris actually do? Surpressors?

Fly around with Inceptors?

[BitsHammer]

 

 

we now have Deathwatch and Ravenguard Primaris.

Pssst! DeathWING and RavenWING, brutha

 

On a different note, Deathwing I can sort of see, but what does the Ravenwing Primaris actually do? Surpressors?

Sorry, phone posted at work. Seems like my autocorrect is biased against Dark Angels.

 

Ravenguard use a fair number of skimmers, so maybe they drive the grav tanks?

[Ishagu]

Venerable Repulsor? I hope so lol

[Marshal Reinhard]

It's a bit of a weird situation as Inceptors/surpressors are both the Primaris "Assault marine equivalent" and the "bike equivalent" right now... though they're not really for close combat