How will the Psychic Awakening affect the Grey Knights?

[Waking Dreamer]

Do you think the GK Chaplain will NOT have the +2 charge roll options...since we are getting Gk specific bonuses instead?

[Corvus Fortis]

But if Vehicles doesn't get masters of the warp, they don't gain other benifits too, which is kinda lame. I guess, it will affect only psyker units, which is a shame for rhinos and LRs. Well, nothing much to lose, but SM, on other hand, got their Docrtines for everything. SoB didn't.

 

Do you think the GK Chaplain will NOT have the +2 charge roll options...since we are getting Gk specific bonuses instead?

 

 

Looks like it. Not that it matters as much as before. With MoW we don't want to charge straight off deep strike. We want to smite our opponent away. And we are fully capable of it as we are.

[Gaz1858]

It says completely new set of litanies so to me thats GK specific. Dont get me wrong id love any charge bonus!

 

Maybe an additional casting benefit to make d6 vortex more reliable? You can get +2 to your roll currently with base benefit and new strat

[TheMostGood]

I think these changes are solid so far.

 

As many have said, GK are not getting more models and the models can’t get much cheaper, so one thing we could easily get is more psychic powers and options available to our current units.

 

And it seems like that’s what they did.

 

New psychic discipline.

 

“Doctrines” that combine offense and defense options.

 

We finally got litanies for our chaplains so they have a use.

 

So it’s looking good. I feel like the GK still will have a small model count issue and These changes may not be enough.

 

It also seems like GK will become a “thinking mans army”. There’s a lot of abilities to use and combo here. You’ll have to play the match appropriately utilizing all these rules to be successful.

 

Not a bad thing, but might make for a high skill curve.

[techsoldaten]

Alright, I'll bite.

 

This is about on-par with what Faith-and-Fury did for Word Bearers.

 

Most players will just use Tide of Shadows / Tide of Escalation, the others are too specific. These don't make up defects in offense, but they help.

 

The new list of Psychic Powers will give some new options but getting a CP on a Psychic Test isn't very useful. It's better than nothing and appropriate for the unit without anything else to do.

 

The Artifact, Stratagem and the Litany don't impress me. Will keep an open mind for when the book comes out, but this doesn't make me confident it will be worth it.

[Biscuittzz]

Alright, I'll bite.

 

This is about on-par with what Faith-and-Fury did for Word Bearers.

 

Most players will just use Tide of Shadows / Tide of Escalation, the others are too specific. These don't make up defects in offense, but they help.

 

The new list of Psychic Powers will give some new options but getting a CP on a Psychic Test isn't very useful. It's better than nothing and appropriate for the unit without anything else to do.

 

The Artifact, Stratagem and the Litany don't impress me. Will keep an open mind for when the book comes out, but this doesn't make me confident it will be worth it.

 

A backfield unit will possible nab you 4+ CP on average across a game. 

 

Tide of Escalation alone practically increases our smite damage output by 100% and our CP pool will be increased by roughly 33% through a single psychic power.

 

I'm guessing you haven't seen the deepstrike 3" away strategem yet?

 

A win for GK would be going from unplayable to playable on the tabletop and this already seems to do much more.

[Captain Coolpants]

Im impressed by these so far.

 

Still unsure if psycannons are worth it again though. Back in the day alllll my units had max psycannons. Im Still sitting on a lot of pewter psycannon guys that would be cool to use.

 

Can't wait to see what Lawrence from tabletop tactics has to say.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Corvus Fortis]

The new list of Psychic Powers will give some new options but getting a CP on a Psychic Test isn't very useful. It's better than nothing and appropriate for the unit without anything else to do.

 

 

They are very useful, since they give us CP worth of battalion. We complained for two years that we have to many possibilities to cast and too few cast. And now we have a new power that is worth to cast every turn.

 

Have to agree with other points, though.

 

A backfield unit will possible nab you 4+ CP on average across a game.

 

 Even more with +1 for casts. I prefere this to xeno inquisitor. And Coteaz is the best inquisitor choice now, IMO.

 

Tide of Escalation alone practically increases our smite damage output by 100% and our CP pool will be increased by roughly 33% through a single psychic power.

 

 

This is great, but still not enough. I even think about staying at Tide of Shades for the whole game. I have to test it first.

 

I'm guessing you haven't seen the deepstrike 3" away strategem yet?

 

 

It is pretty meh, because units, that could benifit from it most, doesn't have access to it. Wording precisely states, that unit have Teleport Strike rule to have it. Neither Purgators, no Purifiers have it. Personally, I don't see much use to it.

 

A win for GK would be going from unplayable to playable on the tabletop and this already seems to do much more.

 

 

Totally agree here. I was already doing okay with assassins and inquisition support. It is a shame, that I'll have to ditch assassins now. Really hope GW will let them not to break monofaction bonuses at least when summoned with stratagem.

 

 

Still unsure if psycannons are worth it again though.

 

 

I doubt, they are worth for competitive play - 2 MW smite is stricktly better. But for friendly play - definitely. The problem is that only models with Psyweapons will benifit from it, so you have to spam them to be effective. But they are certainly not a trash as they were before.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Corvus Fortis

[Indefragable]

<drools in Blood Angel over 3" Deep Strike Strategem>

 

If I am reading this right, the Tides thing is something between the Space Marine doctrines and the Deathwatch Mission Tactics. I think the precise wording will make a huge difference, but if a single model/unit in the army is all that needs to cast the power to change the Tide, than that's another task for a backfield unit (otherwise you bet your :cuss opponents will be looking to deny that one as much as possible)...although you could always save it for last, I suppose. Interesting mechanic. I kinda like it.

 

I also like the +1CP psychic power. There's nothing to lose for a force as psychic-heavy as GK.

[Archon_77]

This is amazing!  Just the amount of tactical flexibility available is crazy good ... being able to shift in and out of what works based on what opponent you are facing and what turn/phase of the game your on is more than I could have dreamed for.  I also feel like we can OWN the psychic phase now (with at T-sons match up being crazy interesting) whereas before we really couldn't.   

[Gaz1858]

Theres still loads more to come in terms of Strats and Relics but so far I am very happy. Simply going to 2MW per smite is enough for me lol

[Holier Than Thou]

I noticed inTide of Escalation it says units with Rites of Banishment that cast Smite. Don’t all our units that can cast currently have Rites of Banishment? Could this mean some units (characters) may be losing RoB and getting full Smite?

[Captain Coolpants]

This release is great. So far really happy about it. But anyone else think that the warding stave relic is absolute dog doodoo?

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 

 

Still unsure if psycannons are worth it again though.

 

 

I doubt, they are worth for competitive play - 2 MW smite is stricktly better. But for friendly play - definitely. The problem is that only models with Psyweapons will benifit from it, so you have to spam them to be effective. But they are certainly not a trash as they were before.

 

 

What's your take on spamming psilencers? Off the top of my head they seem more cost-effective but the main issue before  - was that psycannons needed to be at least 2 damage to compete (against the d3 damage) points wise. Now that they can be S8 and 2 damage without CP cost, they are wounding SM infantry on 2s and have the natural ap-1, they actually seem the better all-rounder weapon (good against light-medium vehicles too), if you're choosing not to use / cant use Psychic Onslaught. Psilencers at S5 ap0 d3+1 seem less versatile overall now, even if they are 3 still points cheaper than psycannons...??

Edited January 13, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Biscuittzz]

I noticed inTide of Escalation it says units with Rites of Banishment that cast Smite. Don’t all our units that can cast currently have Rites of Banishment? Could this mean some units (characters) may be losing RoB and getting full Smite?

 

No, I would say it's to prevent this new Tide from stacking with purifiers and Crowe who have their Purifying flame ability.

[Gaz1858]

 

I noticed inTide of Escalation it says units with Rites of Banishment that cast Smite. Don’t all our units that can cast currently have Rites of Banishment? Could this mean some units (characters) may be losing RoB and getting full Smite?

 

No, I would say it's to prevent this new Tide from stacking with purifiers and Crowe who have their Purifying flame ability.

 

 And the relic banner to which loses RoB

[Corvus Fortis]

I noticed inTide of Escalation it says units with Rites of Banishment that cast Smite. Don’t all our units that can cast currently have Rites of Banishment? Could this mean some units (characters) may be losing RoB and getting full Smite?

 

 

Crowe, Purifiers and Relic Banner doesn't have them. And I don't think, that we need full smite on characters now. We already have pseudo-full smite.

 

What's your take on spamming psilencers? Off the top of my head they seem more cost-effective but the main issue before  - was that psycannons needed to be at least have 2 damage to compete (against the d3 damage) points wise. Now that they can be S8 and 2 damage without CP cost, they are wounding SM infantry on 2s and have the natural ap-1 - they actually seem the better all-rounder weapon if you're choosing not to use / cant use Psychic Onslaught. Psilencers at S5 ap0 seem less versatile now, even if they are 3 points cheaper than psycannons...??

 

 

 

They are great with min 2 damage, but still suffers from no AP and strength. They may do some damage, if spammed, but getting them into range even with litany is problematic. I guess, psilencers are better at killing low save multi-wound infantry and monsters, while psycannons are more anti-meq. Keep in mind, that psilencer is still way cheaper.

[techsoldaten]

 

Alright, I'll bite.

 

This is about on-par with what Faith-and-Fury did for Word Bearers.

 

Most players will just use Tide of Shadows / Tide of Escalation, the others are too specific. These don't make up defects in offense, but they help.

 

The new list of Psychic Powers will give some new options but getting a CP on a Psychic Test isn't very useful. It's better than nothing and appropriate for the unit without anything else to do.

 

The Artifact, Stratagem and the Litany don't impress me. Will keep an open mind for when the book comes out, but this doesn't make me confident it will be worth it.

 

A backfield unit will possible nab you 4+ CP on average across a game. 

 

Tide of Escalation alone practically increases our smite damage output by 100% and our CP pool will be increased by roughly 33% through a single psychic power.

 

I'm guessing you haven't seen the deepstrike 3" away strategem yet?

 

A win for GK would be going from unplayable to playable on the tabletop and this already seems to do much more.

 

Uh....

 

A backfield unit will not net you 4 CP average over a game. WC 7 is 48% chance to cast. You will net an average 3 CP if a game goes 7 turns, which is not guaranteed. It's not passive CP farming like you get with TS and AM and it's at the expense of other psychic powers.

 

Tide of Escalation increases smite damage from 1 to 2. I figure most players will start off with Tide of Shadows to keep their troops alive in the early turns, which means, no, that's not a 100% increase in smite damage. It's an increase during the turns Tide of Escalation is active for the units that cast Smite. Brotherhood of Psykers continues to drive me nuts.

 

I did hear about Dynamic Insertion and it allows units with Teleport Strike to deep strike outside 3" with no charge. Intercessors, Terminators and GMNDKs can be moved across the table, but is 3" out the best place to put a unit that can't charge? I guess it depends what you put them near.

 

Like I said, I have an open mind, but we haven't seen anything groundbreaking here.

 

I'd argue the points drop on Strikes and HQs + Bolter Discipline already makes GKs playable, almost competitive in soup lists. I'm sure we'd be seeing more of them were it not for doctrines.

[Gaz1858]

 

 

Alright, I'll bite.

 

This is about on-par with what Faith-and-Fury did for Word Bearers.

 

Most players will just use Tide of Shadows / Tide of Escalation, the others are too specific. These don't make up defects in offense, but they help.

 

The new list of Psychic Powers will give some new options but getting a CP on a Psychic Test isn't very useful. It's better than nothing and appropriate for the unit without anything else to do.

 

The Artifact, Stratagem and the Litany don't impress me. Will keep an open mind for when the book comes out, but this doesn't make me confident it will be worth it.

 

A backfield unit will possible nab you 4+ CP on average across a game. 

 

Tide of Escalation alone practically increases our smite damage output by 100% and our CP pool will be increased by roughly 33% through a single psychic power.

 

I'm guessing you haven't seen the deepstrike 3" away strategem yet?

 

A win for GK would be going from unplayable to playable on the tabletop and this already seems to do much more.

 

Uh....

 

A backfield unit will not net you 4 CP average over a game. WC 7 is 48% chance to cast. You will net an average 3 CP if a game goes 7 turns, which is not guaranteed. It's not passive CP farming like you get with TS and AM and it's at the expense of other psychic powers.

 

Tide of Escalation increases smite damage from 1 to 2. I figure most players will start off with Tide of Shadows to keep their troops alive in the early turns, which means, no, that's not a 100% increase in smite damage. It's an increase during the turns Tide of Escalation is active for the units that cast Smite. Brotherhood of Psykers continues to drive me nuts.

 

I did hear about Dynamic Insertion and it allows units with Teleport Strike to deep strike outside 3" with no charge. Intercessors, Terminators and GMNDKs can be moved across the table, but is 3" out the best place to put a unit that can't charge? I guess it depends what you put them near.

 

Like I said, I have an open mind, but we haven't seen anything groundbreaking here.

 

I'd argue the points drop on Strikes and HQs + Bolter Discipline already makes GKs playable, almost competitive in soup lists. I'm sure we'd be seeing more of them were it not for doctrines.

 

As GK get plus 1 to cast isnt it a 50% chance of casting?

[techsoldaten]

 

Uh....

 

A backfield unit will not net you 4 CP average over a game. WC 7 is 48% chance to cast. You will net an average 3 CP if a game goes 7 turns, which is not guaranteed. It's not passive CP farming like you get with TS and AM and it's at the expense of other psychic powers.

 

Tide of Escalation increases smite damage from 1 to 2. I figure most players will start off with Tide of Shadows to keep their troops alive in the early turns, which means, no, that's not a 100% increase in smite damage. It's an increase during the turns Tide of Escalation is active for the units that cast Smite. Brotherhood of Psykers continues to drive me nuts.

 

I did hear about Dynamic Insertion and it allows units with Teleport Strike to deep strike outside 3" with no charge. Intercessors, Terminators and GMNDKs can be moved across the table, but is 3" out the best place to put a unit that can't charge? I guess it depends what you put them near.

 

Like I said, I have an open mind, but we haven't seen anything groundbreaking here.

 

I'd argue the points drop on Strikes and HQs + Bolter Discipline already makes GKs playable, almost competitive in soup lists. I'm sure we'd be seeing more of them were it not for doctrines.

 

As GK get plus 1 to cast isnt it a 50% chance of casting?

 

Yeah, you're right. Still, you need to go 7 rounds for 3.5 to be the average.

[TheMostGood]

And keep in mind, you can only gain 1 CP per turn anyway.

 

Other factions generate CP on a 5+ or 6+ which is 33% and 16%.

 

Sure they MAY have possibly more opportunities to try, but they don’t always get to try every turn.

[RedemptionNL]

Rolling 6+ on 2d6 is over 72%, so that's 4.3 CP over 6 rounds on average.

[Aothaine]

Something else to keep in mind is that you can still generate cp even when you're out of cp. Most other cp gains are only when you or your opponent are spending cp. But I love these changes to the Grey Knights. I think they will bring really bring them back onto the tabletop for sure in competitive play.

[TheMostGood]

Rolling 6+ on 2d6 is over 72%, so that's 4.3 CP over 6 rounds on average.

Then when you add that other item with the +1 to tests...

[Biscuittzz]

Uh....

 

 

 

A backfield unit will not net you 4 CP average over a game. WC 7 is 48% chance to cast. You will net an average 3 CP if a game goes 7 turns, which is not guaranteed. It's not passive CP farming like you get with TS and AM and it's at the expense of other psychic powers.

 

Tide of Escalation increases smite damage from 1 to 2. I figure most players will start off with Tide of Shadows to keep their troops alive in the early turns, which means, no, that's not a 100% increase in smite damage. It's an increase during the turns Tide of Escalation is active for the units that cast Smite. Brotherhood of Psykers continues to drive me nuts.

 

I did hear about Dynamic Insertion and it allows units with Teleport Strike to deep strike outside 3" with no charge. Intercessors, Terminators and GMNDKs can be moved across the table, but is 3" out the best place to put a unit that can't charge? I guess it depends what you put them near.

 

Like I said, I have an open mind, but we haven't seen anything groundbreaking here.

 

I'd argue the points drop on Strikes and HQs + Bolter Discipline already makes GKs playable, almost competitive in soup lists. I'm sure we'd be seeing more of them were it not for doctrines.

 

 

Yes WC7 may be 48%. But we don't need a WC7, we need a WC6 and use our inherent +1 to make it a 7. By my maths, getting at least a 6 on 2d6 is 72.2% or so. Over 6 turns, that works out to 4.2 CP on average. Of course it's not guaranteed, that's why it's called an average.

 

You can't just play off your opinion as fact though? And if they don't start in Tide of Shadows? Start in Escalation, then yes every smite successfully cast is doing 100% more damage.

 

I'd disagree with you having an open mind personally as you're using anecdotal evidence to push your narrative.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Biscuittzz