Are primaris worth it?

[nusphigor]

Hello ladies and gentlemen.

 

I have been looking at the primaris minis and they seem odd.

I was wondering, are they worth collecting to add to an existing army or is it better to leave them for a new one?

What do they contribute to a standard army? (mostly based on heavy support and elites)

 

I know this question may seem a bit too slowpoke at this time but it is an honest one, as i fail to see the virtues of the primaris range.

 

I hope you guys can help me with these questions

[Bukimimaru]

I have 2 space marine armies, a Blood Angel collection that it just oldschool marines, and a Black Templar army that's 100% primaris.

 

I love the primaris models and I think they look amazing, but they never do anywhere near as well as my Blood Angels on the table. T_T

[Ishagu]

The Primaris are very much worth it. They perform on the tabletop and have powerful, more specialised units.

[quasistellar]

Primaris is definitely worth it. I personally have no problem mixing them in with old marines, but some folks don’t find it aesthetically pleasing (which is valid in this hobby!)

 

I have old dreads and a land raider and am considering grabbing devastators to stick in a drop pod.

 

Intercessors outshine tactical squads generally. venerable dreadnoughts are great inexpensive BS2 lascannon platforms that don’t degrade and are easy to hide. There’s all kinds of opportunity to mix and match for maximum optimization.

[Dracos]

The Primaris line is still incomplete. It will cause some synergy issues until they get more tools for the box. That said they are great models and good rules (mostly) The new index gives a great boost in performance. The Supplements are key imo for building an army that suits your play style. I might love Black Templars and I do, but they don’t suit my play style. I play with a balanced approach and enjoy movement and deployment shenanigans. I could play the crap out of Untramarines. Great new rules but prefer a more modern “real world” feel for my power armored super soldiers lol. Ergo while not huge on painting black still feel Sons of Corax are for me. So <counts as> ;)

 

I would suggest look at the Troop choices that suit you best (sadly Phobos wasn’t a thing year and half ago) and build around making that choice work for you.

[Captain Idaho]

It is very much up for debate just how effective Primaris are in a solo army. The new Marine special rules are based upon having a broad spectrum of weapons and plenty of CP to take advantage of powerful Strategums - both of which pure Primaris armies struggle to bring to the table.

 

The real powerful lists will likely have a mix between Primaris and Classic Marines, though in truth I've had plenty to of success with my Classic Marines with this recent Codex and supplement.

 

Aesthetically speaking, most people stick to one or the other for the most part, though units that can straddle a line between scales often find themselves in both types of armies. Examples of this are Redemptor Dreadnoughts and Executioners finding themselves in Classic Marines lists as the scale can be explained easily, or Scouts, vehicles and Centurions in Primaris armies.

 

It's ultimately a choice up to you - are you okay with the aesthetic divergences between the size of old and new?

[Ishagu]

I've played a few games with solo Primaris now and they are very, very effective. Easily capable of defeating lists or putting up a good fight.

 

They can be enhanced, however, with units from the "classic" line of models. For example without the older units Primaris would have very limited indirect fire.

[Captain Idaho]

So you're backing me up ;) after all that is exactly what I said - A mix of the 2 will be most competitive.

[Ishagu]

Yeah, definitely. But also not to hold yourself back from focusing on just one if that's what you wanted to do.

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed. It really is a golden age for Marines. As I said, my Classic Marines are kicking Heretical and Xenos tail and I reckon I could do the same in a different way with Primaris (playstyle changes with different themes etc)

 

Ultimately, if the OP or anyone for that matter, wants to add Primaris to their collection they should do so. It's just up to them if they like them mixed or not (aesthetically).

Edited September 3, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

This topic is quite odd, however. Part of me think it might be trolling.

 

To quote:

 

"as i fail to see the virtues of the primaris range."

 

 

You don't have to look far to see the virtues. Open the codex and look at the rules - that's all you have to do.

 

Whether you like the the look of the models or not is entirely up to you.

[Lemondish]

Perhaps they meant aesthetically? I definitely understand people might dislike the new look for some of the units. I think it's brilliant and I love it. Perhaps the OP feels otherwise?

[nusphigor]

Thank you for your opinions guys.

 

I mean i fail to see their virtues in both rules and aesthetics, but it may be that i have yet to play with them more.

The few times ive tried the intercessors they just felt like glorifyed and overcosted tacticals.

 

However it may be just my and the fact that i dont play that often.

[Ishagu]

Thank you for your opinions guys.

 

I mean i fail to see their virtues in both rules and aesthetics, but it may be that i have yet to play with them more.

The few times ive tried the intercessors they just felt like glorifyed and overcosted tacticals.

 

However it may be just my and the fact that i dont play that often.

I'm afraid you're very much wrong on this matter. Intercessors are now some of the best troops in the game, able to deal impressive damage at range and in combat whilst being more durable than most.

 

Do you have the new codex? I suggest you take a look at some Tactical reviews. Goonhammer have some good ones.

[Exilyth]

What helped me understand primaris better is to look at them like this:

Gulliman wants astartes to be more like the legions back in the horus heresy era - each squad has a purpose and there's a different squad for each purpose instead of mixing different equipment/roles within the same squad. So, e.g. Intercessors get no heavy weapon and instead of devastators you get hellblasters (where each marine has the same plasma weapon) and so on.

 

So, fluff wise primaris are an improved and more standardized version of marines.

Rules wise, they bring better stats & gear for a higher price. While some units are better and some worse, they're mostly 'sidegrades' to classic marines - e.g. an eliminator squad with mortis shells can sit on an objective and provide indirect fire, just like a whirlwind could do. For most classic units, there's one or more primaris units doing something similar but slightly different (with the exception of meelee - primaris are lacking in dedicated meelee units currently).

 

As for aesthetics - that's up to personal taste.

 

The few times ive tried the intercessors they just felt like glorifyed and overcosted tacticals.

 

Well, tbh, Intercessors with bolt rifles are glorified and overcosted tacticals with a slightly improved statline & equipment.

The 2 LP makes the Intercessors slightly more resilient and the 2 A gives them a bit more punch in meelee.

 

Using stalker/autobolt rifles changes the use of Intercessors a lot - either giving them more range at the cost of dakka or more dakka at the cost of range.

[Slave to Darkness]

From my experience using my non optimised Slaaneshi marines against them I think Primaris work better alongside normal marines, at least until GW expands the range more. All the games I have played against Mono Primaris armys have been absolute slaughters, yet I have had more problems with mixed marine armys or original marine armys. But my opinion is just from playing against them, I cant comment on how they play for me as I dont use them in my loyalist armys, OG marines for me only. 

[Aothaine]

Using stalker/autobolt rifles changes the use of Intercessors a lot - either giving them more range at the cost of dakka or more dakka at the cost of range.

 

There is another thread that is talking about the new rules for the auto bolt rifles and math shows they are, by far, the best option for primaris against all toughness models except T5 where the frag grenade out performs. 

 

Against terminators and other primaris the stalker bolt rifle out performs.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357742-new-blood-angel-rules/?p=5380799

Edited September 3, 2019 by Aothaine

[Dracos]

Agreed. It really is a golden age for Marines. As I said, my Classic Marines are kicking Heretical and Xenos tail and I reckon I could do the same in a different way with Primaris (playstyle changes with different themes etc)

Ultimately, if the OP or anyone for that matter, wants to add Primaris to their collection they should do so. It's just up to them if they like them mixed or not (aesthetically).

I’m very glad to hear this is your take at the moment. It wasn’t that long ago that I was afraid you were going to totally quit the game that you seem so discouraged by the path of the classic space Marines were taking

 

Thumbs up

[Deadman Wade]

I've tried primaris marines in my Imperial Fists force (mainly cause my friends gave me shadowspear and that big IF primaris box for my birthday). They certainly have their uses, but they are not mandatory for competitive lists, especially shadowspear stuff. Intercessors are frontline unit, they are better at holding mid-field objectives than tacticals, since they can take more D1 wounds, for backlines tacticals with special or heavy weapons are better. Helblasters are really good, but with the same drawback as min-squad devastarors - each casualty reduces overall valuable firepower of a squad, and there is no way to get ablative wounds. Redemptor dread is ok-ish for anti-infantry role, and as all primaris vehicles he has tons of additional useless guns which increase his cost, while you really need only main gun. Snipers are nice, but with squads of three max there's nothing to write home about, infiltrators are overcosted, and flying autocannons are completely useless.

New lascannon tank is strictly worse than two predators for the same cost. You can take Land Raider Crusader instead of Repulsor for the same or better results.

The only unit that I like are bolter Agressors, especially with recent buffs to gravis armor - tough, good firepower, decent melee. But you don't really need them if you have bolter centurions.

What worked for me: 10-man primaris intercessors unit with IF chapter tactics, rapid fire stratagem and tactical doctrine, bolter agressors, helblasters, dakka dread, snipers. Everything else is pretty much useless against decent lists.

Don't think that full-primaris armies are viable now - too slow, too overcosted and their hard-hitting units have no 2+ or invulnerable saves. But you certainly can take couple of primaris units that are cost-effective.

Also, mix of space marines and primaris doesn't look so bad in actual games, where you don't concentrate on height difference.

 

Aestetically-wise they are hit-and-miss for me, from more or less ok intercessors to hideous inceptors and flying autocannons. And vehicles with seven different guns are both terrible looking and overcosted.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Xerxus]

The Executioner is not strictly worse than two predators. First off it has fly, second it is putting out far more shots overall for anti-horde purposes.

[Deadman Wade]

You want executioner for it's 4 lascannon shots, so it can be comfortable parked at max distance from the enemy with it's 72" range. Yet it has two frag grenade launchers with 18" range, gatling cannon with 30" range, storm bolters, twin heavy bolter and heavy stubber. So it's optimal range is around 24-30", otherwise you're wasting it's guns. Putting this big obvious fire magnet closer to the enemy to get into range and finding suitable targets and LOS means that it would be easier target both for long-range weapons and rapid-fire stuff. In most cases it would be only laser destroyer, heavy bolter and gatling cannon that would be ble to take shots, it's transport capacity also wasted (it's a TRANSPORT with guns that requires to move no more than 4' to shoot it's main cannon lol)

Two predators would have 8 lascannon shots at 48" range for the same cost.

And unlike Land Raider it's transport capacity is limited to 6 models (3 gravis) and it has no 2+ save, and it shouldn't move at all to get extra shots with it's main gun. If it would have just main cannon, twin heavy bolter and maybe one more gun, no transport capacity and like 70-100 points drop, it would be nice heavy tank, but as it is, it's not worth points.

Both Repulsor and Executioner have a lot of guns with various STR, range, damage and AP, which makes them overcosted generalist vehicles and a pain to actually play, since you have to resolve every weapon shooting one at a time.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Ishagu]

I disagree with your assessment. I've also used the Executioner in multiple competitive events with good success.

 

You've decided the unit needs to be kept back at range, but that isn't necessarily the best course of action at all times.

[MegaVolt87]

I disagree with your assessment. I've also used the Executioner in multiple competitive events with good success.

 

You've decided the unit needs to be kept back at range, but that isn't necessarily the best course of action at all times.

 

Yeah, haven't even got one yet though just reading the entry implies this. Once the nasty AT is dealt with, you could drive closer and start sweeping infantry. Of course, being fly with a transport capacity and so many guns you think its straight out of Borderlands, its points are spendy. Denying there is no strength in the primaris rues after the new dex is being willfully obtuse. They have enough there at the moment to be worth considering, with only more on the way. I had no interest in them before the re-work, now I am starting my own primaris chapter as the re-work has me now confident they are getting better than they were at the start. 

[nusphigor]

Thank you for your input guys.

 

My comment on the Intercessors was based on my experience with them, but the comment that they can shoot a lot with the auto bolters in the midfield and make advantage of their 2 wounds when objective rushing made me rethink that.

 

So the overall consensus seems to be that some primaris units work well alongside classic marines but some classic units can cover their roles too (For example, bolter centurions and bolter aggressors), whereas a full primaris armies still seem to be lacking versatility on the tabletop.

 

So you guys would suggest that a full intercessors unit, a full hellblaster unit and a redemptor would be a nice addition to a standing classic army?

[Dracos]

I see the gentleman's point regarding it's cost and main function comparative to double Predators ... 

 

 ... but I think I am as guilty as anyone finding it easy to be stuck in old thinking patterns instead of looking for practices that make the most out of the new equipment.

 

 

edit: I like Hellblasters but make sure you have a delivery system to get them in rapid-fire range (Impulsor)

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dracos