Are primaris worth it?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Keep in mind you don’t have to play pure Primaris which I think can be a big mistake from a competitive point of view. I have always used a mix to good effect. Like Ishagu said Intercessors are one of the best troops in the game. There’s lots of arguments counter to their capability such as the plethora of D2 ranged weapons but as long as you don’t play on Planet Bowling Ball they do just fine.

[One Two Wolf]

Primaris are reinforcements, not replacements.

 

New units with new rules and that means new strengths and new weaknesses. The last thing I read on WC said that the (some) old index models are going to be able to be used FOREVER, which says pretty clearly to me that non-primaris are here for keeps too. The key for me is remembering my first sentence. Reinforcements. That's their job.

 

Use as such and they will perform.

[Kallas]

Primaris are reinforcements, not replacements.

That will last as long as GW can be bothered to maintain the facade, which is already slowly giving way.

 

Legends "supporting forever" is a load of crap. It's basically the minimum possible above nothing, and is specifically not intended for competitive play (despite having Matched Play points, no updates to costs/rules will mean they fall behind somewhere, even if they do get used competitively).

[Lemondish]

 

 

I disagree with your assessment. I've also used the Executioner in multiple competitive events with good success.

 

You've decided the unit needs to be kept back at range, but that isn't necessarily the best course of action at all times.

Yeah, haven't even got one yet though just reading the entry implies this. Once the nasty AT is dealt with, you could drive closer and start sweeping infantry. Of course, being fly with a transport capacity and so many guns you think its straight out of Borderlands, its points are spendy. Denying there is no strength in the primaris rues after the new dex is being willfully obtuse. They have enough there at the moment to be worth considering, with only more on the way. I had no interest in them before the re-work, now I am starting my own primaris chapter as the re-work has me now confident they are getting better than they were at the start.

I find it curious that you think the high range weapon needs to be held back but have neglected that this tactic might be the same one made by your opponent.

 

Which is kind of the point. You do not need the anti-infantry firepower to match the range of anti-tank shooting because these targets are often at different range bands.

 

I also fundamentally disagree with your assessment of the Suppressors. Turning off overwatch is awesome and their weapon profile is a meta staple all for a very cheap price.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Lemondish

[Kallas]

The anti-Overwatch ability only really kicks in vs units that can lose a model. That rules out a lot of single model units (eg, Knights, Dakka Flyrants, Riptides, Repulsors, etc).

 

It's a potent effect but I'm wary about its actually tabletop use. That said, I have no real plans to use them (ever, because their models are FUgly in the extreme to me) but would be happy to be proved wrong - so any examples would be interesting to hear.

[Lemondish]

The anti-Overwatch ability only really kicks in vs units that can lose a model. That rules out a lot of single model units (eg, Knights, Dakka Flyrants, Riptides, Repulsors, etc).

 

It's a potent effect but I'm wary about its actually tabletop use. That said, I have no real plans to use them (ever, because their models are FUgly in the extreme to me) but would be happy to be proved wrong - so any examples would be interesting to hear.

Yes, that's true.

 

But that means it applies to pretty much everything you'll charge with Infantry marines, who are now more dangerous in combat.

 

The unit brings something great against most targets. I can speak from experience with this unit - it rates well for the cost. Ultras benefit the most from not having to worry about movement if you need to reposition. It remains to be seen what benefits other Chapters might bring.

[PiñaColada]

Suppressors are amazing value IMO. Their rules are a bit all over the place (in the sense that they'd behave strangely if you tried to use all their abilities) but they're also passive buffs that come at a very low cost. I find that one unit placed in you own backfield can prove pretty darn useful if placed in cover and on an objective. A 2+ save (with cover) makes them somewhat hardy and their range and firepower is not something that should be ignored.

 

The fact that they can shut down overwatch can be clutch but often times might not make a huge difference in the game. Same with their <fly> 12" and smoke launchers, they're really fast if need be and that can win you games, doesn't change the fact that they'll often be stationary. At their pre codex cost I might've been more vocal at having a more basic unit to trim some points off these guys but now, at 30ppm, it's all gravy IMO.

I will say that they seem really good as UM but ignoring AP-1 as salamanders makes them just a little bit tougher (esp. in cover) and those rerolls are pretty tasty to apply every time they fire 6 shots. 

[Subtleknife]

Primaris are reinforcements, not replacements.

 

 

I am sorry but imo that will only hold for so long. If I were a betting man I would put money on classic marines being phased out ever so slowly.

[Ishagu]

In my lists it's the other way around in most cases...

[Deadman Wade]

Supressors are low-damage and low model-count unit with very niche role. Their anti-overwatch feature only comes into play against very limited number of units (like flamer wraithguard). Thier feature as fast-moving fire support unit doesn't work 'cause they get penalty to-hit after moving. If they remain stationary they become havocs-wannabees with less damage. With 3 models they are easy target for First strike. Sure, they are 80-ish points IIRC, but these points can be spent for something with more impact.

Like many primaris units they get a lot of features shoved into one unit, and those feature contradict each other - long-range guns with low damage and model count, mobility with penalty to-hit after moving e.t.c. For mobile fire support Inceptors are miles ahead of them. That's why I like intercessors - they have one job that they can do, and they do it good enough - they hold mid-field objectives, shoot enemy light infantry and soak damage for reasonable price, which is what troops should be doing.

Saying that supressors are good 'cause they can shut down overwatch is like saying that assault marines are good 'cause they can tie things in melee. Both units suck in their roles.

IMO, supressors and repulsor executioner are the worst primaris units when it comes to point efficiency and on the same level with assault marines.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[momerathe]

I'm late to this party, but one thing to note about intercessors is that doctrines makes a HUGE impact on their effectiveness. It takes autobolter intercessors from ~34 PPW vs. MEQ to ~24 i.e. from fairly mediocre to close to top tier efficiency.

 

It's quite easy to look at intercessors and think they're meh, or look at them and think they're amazing, entirely depending on what doctrines you expect to have active for most of the battle.

Edited September 4, 2019 by momerathe

[Lemondish]

Supressors are low-damage and low model-count unit with very niche role. Their anti-overwatch feature only comes into play against very limited number of units (like flamer wraithguard). Thier feature as fast-moving fire support unit doesn't work 'cause they get penalty to-hit after moving. If they remain stationary they become havocs-wannabees with less damage. With 3 models they are easy target for First strike. Sure, they are 80-ish points IIRC, but these points can be spent for something with more impact.

Like many primaris units they get a lot of features shoved into one unit, and those feature contradict each other - long-range guns with low damage and model count, mobility with penalty to-hit after moving e.t.c. For mobile fire support Inceptors are miles ahead of them. That's why I like intercessors - they have one job that they can do, and they do it good enough - they hold mid-field objectives, shoot enemy light infantry and soak damage for reasonable price, which is what troops should be doing.

Saying that supressors are good 'cause they can shut down overwatch is like saying that assault marines are good 'cause they can tie things in melee. Both units suck in their roles.

IMO, supressors and repulsor executioner are the worst primaris units when it comes to point efficiency and on the same level with assault marines.

 

Oh my, where do I start...

 

Suppressors are pretty much better damage per point than units like Hellblasters without blowing themselves up, without the need for a transport for mobility and additional protection, can't be silenced in melee, and don't need to get close to maximize damage. I can see the issue here is that you've forgotten the importance of target priority in assessing a unit's capability and as such have completely glossed over how valuable 2 shots each at str 7, ap -3 with dev doctrine, and 2 damage is at this price against a variety of targets. They outperform Hellblasters here. 

 

Their Overwatch ability works against any unit you want to shut down Overwatch on, not just this one you gave an example for. Eating damage from Overwatch you could silence reliably is never a worthwhile choice, whether it's deemed massively danagerous or not.

 

Their mobility as Ultramarines is 12'' without penalty. Their mobility as everyone else is 12'' with a -1 to hit penalty that can be easily mitigated with reroll auras. To state they have to stay still or are useless is hyperbolic nonsense. A unit that can't see a target is useless - a unit with Fly and 12'' movement can almost always see a target worth shooting. 

 

Their high range, 2+ in cover save, ability to deep strike, access to -1 to hit for a small offensive reduction, and their high movement with Fly means they are not at all an easy target for First Strike if you don't want them to be. 

 

Unlike Inceptors, they aren't designed to be close in fire support. They're designed to be at range and take down elite and light to medium vehicles. Suppressors are good because they have a meta-dominating weapon with range, resilience and deployment tools for maximizing its use, on a very mobile platform with a variety of extra tools that make them better than the alternative against units that may not be their preferred targets. 

 

I have never seen somebody so wrong about a unit before. Touche :D

[Ishagu]

I get the impression that a lot of opinions on units in this topic might be based on naked datasheets.

 

The rules, doctrines and synergy combinations have a massive impact on performance, and more to some than others. Intercessors with stratagems and doctrines are fantastic. Aggressors are really powerful too, as are Inceptors, Hellblasters, Eliminators, etc.

 

To put it bluntly, the Primaris units are excellent and very, very useful.

[Deadman Wade]

Supressors are 6 wounds with T4 and no invulnerable save that can be killed by a bunch of bolter shots, there's no need to silence them in melee, since their damage can be ignored. Six S7 AP2 shots is 2 dead MEQ not in cover, 3 with devastaror doctrine, that's not firepower. Once at least one supressor is killed, the squad can be ignored for the rest of the game.

You want to shut down units that can hurt you on overatch, and it's flamer units. For anything else it's better to kill more models with extra firepower for that 80 points than to deny their overwatch.

4+ to-hit lowers their damage to something like 1 dead MEQ. "Easily mitigated with auras" yeah, sure, let's make chaplain run across the field to buff them with accuracy for 1 more dead MEQ, while he could buff something useful. Their role as fast-moving support unit kind of denies them the use of captains, chaplains and lieutenants auras, unless they stand still and try to be devastators.

They are not designed to take down light vehicles, since they don't have the damage to do so. On average their damage against a Rhino is 2 wounds per round, 4 with devastator doctrine. Killing elites? Like what, one terminator per turn or half of necron wraith?

They can't scratch vehicles, they kill 2 marines per turn, they die easily, they don't have stratagems to help them with any of these.

 

I've never seen somebody trying to justify taking such a useless unit before.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Ishagu]

What's killing the Suppressors?

 

They have long range, beyond most infantry.

Is the opponent dedicating a long range, high firepower unit to deal with them? That's great - it leaves my more expensive units alone.

 

6 Str7 Ap-3 2D shots are their cost, on a flying, high mobile unit is very good.

[BluejayJunior]

Intercessors are a good, solid unit. They get the job done, but they're not flashy, so it's easier to overlook their contributions to a battle. 

Suppressors aren't bad. Shutting off overwatch isn't nearly as worthless as you seem to think. And their mobility and range can't be underestimated. If the enemy is targeting them turn one because they see them as a threat, then they are likely ignoring other threats.

Repulsors (of both varieties) are really good. They can dish out a ton of firepower against multiple threats. Even if 2 Las-Preds may be better against vehicles, they are useless once those vehicles are gone or if there were no vehicles to begin with. Plus, Repulsors can Fly, so they can be neutralized by getting into melee with them. 

[NatBrannigan]

What he said ^. Wouldn't overlook the Overwatch cancelling ability. Made their points back and then some for me last game by killing a single Aggressor. No Overwatch for them and that particular overwatch is brutal. Wulfen into combat unscathed (well... no more unscathed at least) and goodbye Aggressors. Not sure how many Wulfen you'd lose on average charging 5 Aggressors (bolt variety, IF chapter tatics).

 

They seem fine to me, just fine but that's ok! And that's as Space wolves so none of the new rules.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Supressors are 6 wounds with T4 and no invulnerable save that can be killed by a bunch of bolter shots, there's no need to silence them in melee, since their damage can be ignored. Six S7 AP2 shots is 2 dead MEQ not in cover, 3 with devastaror doctrine, that's not firepower. Once at least one supressor is killed, the squad can be ignored for the rest of the game.

You want to shut down units that can hurt you on overatch, and it's flamer units. For anything else it's better to kill more models with extra firepower for that 80 points than to deny their overwatch.

4+ to-hit lowers their damage to something like 1 dead MEQ. "Easily mitigated with auras" yeah, sure, let's make chaplain run across the field to buff them with accuracy for 1 more dead MEQ, while he could buff something useful. Their role as fast-moving support unit kind of denies them the use of captains, chaplains and lieutenants auras, unless they stand still and try to be devastators.

They are not designed to take down light vehicles, since they don't have the damage to do so. On average their damage against a Rhino is 2 wounds per round, 4 with devastator doctrine. Killing elites? Like what, one terminator per turn or half of necron wraith?

They can't scratch vehicles, they kill 2 marines per turn, they die easily, they don't have stratagems to help them with any of these.

 

I've never seen somebody trying to justify taking such a useless unit before.

 

I see the problem, you look at their FA slot and think they should be zooming around the table on their own without support.

 

Everyone else in this discussion is looking at their weapon profile and 48" range in particular and mentally putting them in the backfield with buffing characters where they belong.

 

Unlike most backfield gunline units they have a secondary role as fast moving objective grabbers in the late game when you have turned the tide of battle and want to maximise your VP score. I really think that is what the smoke grenades are for.

 

They are not a flashy unit, you cannot buff them into the stratosphere with lots of stratagems or anything like that. In a way that is a good thing, I for one need at least some units in my list that are not CP hungry but will just sit and do a job for me every turn unless/until my opponent dedicates some expensive long-range high quality firepower to dealing with them.

[Deadman Wade]

If you're putting them into backlines, there's no need for deep strike or high movement. That's what devastators and other heavy support units are for, even single 5-man tactical squad with a missile launcher would be better. Suppressors don't do damage, like, at all. No anti-horde, no anti-vehicle, only killing 1-2 MEQ per turn to shut down overwatch.

Unit can either be cost-effective or not, supressors are not.

[Captain Idaho]

I think it is easy to forget that a great Troops unit doesn't mean game breaking or overpowered. Intercessors are great in the sense they do their job very well. That won't mean they'll be scything through enemy armies or tanking Eldar firepower every turn without a loss.

 

It's also worth noting that Classic and Primaris Marines are now still pretty competitive. The latter have more focused and therefore easier to get the most out of Strategums but will struggle with CPs over a close game. The former benefit from being more flexible in army composition and thus better able to gain from the boost each Doctrine has available, particularly the Devastator to Tactical Doctrine switch. Their Strategum support is great too but most units only benefit from 1 whereas Primaris can benefit more greatly from a few no matter the unit they are.

 

It's quite interesting how the armies actually perform differently. My list vs Ishagu's list, for example, would operate completely differently.

 

I’m very glad to hear this is your take at the moment. It wasn’t that long ago that I was afraid you were going to totally quit the game that you seem so discouraged by the path of the classic space Marines were taking

 

Thumbs up

Thanks brother.

 

To be honest I would have quit if GW hadn't heeded customer feedback and produced the best Codex we've ever seen (actual opinion).

 

I don't abhor change by any means, I just don't have the time or finances to start again. (I say this hoping GW read it and buy me a 2000pts army to help promote Primaris with veterans.

 

I'm only half joking!)

[War Angel]

Just because you don’t know how to use the unit doesn’t mean it’s overcosted or bad. Quite a few of our Primaris units have extra tools and guns that they can use. Utility wins wars.

[Deadman Wade]

Oh, here we go with that "you don't know how to use them"

I hope you don't mind if I'm not taking this obvious troll bait though.

 

Anyway, I think I made my point on supressors and their lack of useful applications, so I'll stop with this discussion.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Ishagu]

Oh, here we go with that "you don't know how to use them"

I hope you don't mind if I'm not taking this obvious troll bait though.

 

Anyway, I think I made my point on supressors and their lack of useful applications, so I'll stop with this discussion.

It kinda sounds like you don't. You seem to measure the use of a unit by damage potential only? You've ignored all the extra rules that make them useful...

[Brother Casman]

I'd leave it there, Ishagu, we should probably come back to nusphigor's original discussion.

[Kallas]

Um. Maybe everyone fired up can just take a step back please?

 

God-Emperor knows I have issues with some of Ishagu's Primaris preferences, but it's still worth remaining civil, and there can be valid opinions on both sides.

 

That said, there's definitely something to be said for having actual playtime with things - personally, I don't have any with Suppressors (or most Primaris).