Next Primarch to return

[Ishagu]

How much would the Lion care about the social and political side of the current Imperium?

He was never one for politics, human interaction, subtlety, etc.

His military genius and strategic insight may well be the best, but would he even care about what has happened as long as the loyalty wasn't in question?

[TorvaldTheMild]

How much would the Lion care about the social and political side of the current Imperium?

He was never one for politics, human interaction, subtlety, etc.

His military genius and strategic insight may well be the best, but would he even care about what has happened as long as the loyalty wasn't in question?

Because others could do those jobs like Sanguinius, he still serves the Imperium fervently.  Any Primarch could do it, even the ones with little political skill, they would still be better at it than any human if the actually forced themselves to do it and learn to be better at it.  Guilliman isn't exactly good at it himself, seeing how he's handling the Imperium now.  The Imperium is so fractured and bloated that none but the Emperor could really fix it.

[crazyterran]

 

Any new Primarch would also have to go through the ":cuss have they done with the Imperium" bit that Bobby G experienced. Some of them would potentially be more cross about the whole Ecclesiarchy thing than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman could also respond to any criticism with something like "I was dead, what's your excuse?". Anyone who didn't like how things turned out could have intervened much sooner instead of heading off on their own personal side quests.

Guilliman has done nothing to curb the ecclesiarchy, like I said he's even been complicit in burning people alive, merely for disobeying an order.  He wasn't dead, you are also assuming you know what the other Primarchs are up to and that they are capable coming back anytime they want.

 

 

Guilliman ordered that Sister to get a quick and clean death, so not to be burned alive as is typical. He realizes he can't just dismantle the Ecclesiarchy, much to his chagrin, which you would know if you had actually read those two books and not hunted for quotes. He then severely punishes the preacher that put the Sister up to the shenanigans, with the Custodes noting he went light on the guy. Guilliman was furious that he had to have that Sister executed as she was an otherwise good soldier, and extra furious that Mathias put her up to it.  

 

 

 

 

When did the lore ever say that Dorn was dead? It always stated he was on a ship that exploded and all they found was his hand, so it was implied he was dead, but never said he was dead. So what retcons are you talking about.

Yeah I asked that question myself about a year ago, everyone seems to think he's dead and the only fluff I've read is that he's missing.

 

 

I think it might be Johnson. People talk about there being a big confrontation with guilliman but he did run the show after the heresy and I don't know why it would be a big shock to find him running things again now.

 

It feels like a melee focused, combat monster primarch is needed for the loyalists and Russ I think was fairly broken at the end if the heresy, his legion spent (and I think they are in a bad way currently as well) and his role as the emperor's executioner abandoned.

 

Johnson seems a more natural fit for a traitor hating, ruthless anti chaos monster who could lead his own personal crusade with a legion sized dark angels force to re conquer the galaxy.

It would be because of Imperium Secundus, the Lion was completely against that and thought it was a terrible idea. He only agreed because Sanguinius was to be the figure head, so I think if he comes back he will be quite pissed, seeing that Guilliman has always desired power. The Lion was far more broken, he wanted a fight to the death with Russ, thinking that there was nothing left in life to do anymore. Russ wasn't broken at all in comparison, he was actually quite stoic. I don't know where you are getting that, I think you are mixing him up with Bjorn after Russ left. Most of the legions strength was spent, but I don't see how that is relevant.

The Lion and Guilliman reached a mutual understanding and respect by the end of the Ruinstorm story. There is no grudge, animosity or anything like that between them.

 

As for who's coming back: It would be easiest to bring the Lion back because he's in a known location, and because he's been in a coma this whole time he can return as very much the same established character.

 

Russ, Dorn, Corax, Khan and Vulkan are all plausable to return also.

 

Just because they understand one another doesn't mean the lion agreed with Imperium Secundus, if he sees Guilliman doing it again he'll be pissed.

 

He certainly didn't do anything to stop Imperium Secundus, and was perfectly fine being Warmaster and doing his own thing while Guilliman and Sanguinius played politics on Macragge. 

 

I imagine much of what the Lion does depends on how Guilliman reacts - I imagine if it's something along the lines of "Oh, thank goodness you are back, Lion, please go kill our daemonic brothers" the Lion would be fine. Even someone as tunnel visioned as Lion El'johnson would realize that if Guilliman was the only one around, obviously he'd be in charge. 

 

Not so, the 12 lords of terra were always to be in-charge, Guillimans biggest weakness is his thirst for power, Imperial Secundus, his first Lord Commander position, his codex astartes and now he's made himself Lord Commander again.  The Angel was against Imperium Secundus because of Guilliman, he only agreed to it because Sanguinius was to be the figure head.  I think the Lion see's Guillimans weakness.  Also Guilliman not doing anything against the Imperial cult would be an issue, I mean Guilliman has been involved in allowing people to be burned at the stake, he's allowed the status qou to continue.  Also its more interesting to the lore if their is tension between Guilliman and the next Primarch, it would be a wasted opportunity for them to just bro out.

 

 

If you had actually read the books with Imperium Secundus involved, you would know Guilliman did everything he could to not get power as he didn't want to be a tyrant. He doesn't crave power - saying so would require a fundamental misunderstanding of his character. He only took the reins in 40k because the Imperium needed someone to steer it back on course, as it was going right off a cliff and the High Lords were paralyzed with indecision, as we see in the book involving the Custodes/the HLoT (I forgot the title, it was a recent book that ends with Guilliman arriving). 

 

We don't know if Guilliman handed it right back after he did what he had to before chasing after Fulgrim, but we do know that during the Beast Awakens era that Guilliman was held in such high regard that they used his name for the title of his position. The High Lords wouldn't do that if they felt he was making a grab at their power back then. 

 

If anyone was being sneaky/doing power grabs behind their brothers back, it was the Lion who was doing things without telling Guilliman and Sanguinius about what he was up to in Guilliman's realm and Sanguinius' empire. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Any new Primarch would also have to go through the ":cuss have they done with the Imperium" bit that Bobby G experienced. Some of them would potentially be more cross about the whole Ecclesiarchy thing than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman could also respond to any criticism with something like "I was dead, what's your excuse?". Anyone who didn't like how things turned out could have intervened much sooner instead of heading off on their own personal side quests.

Guilliman has done nothing to curb the ecclesiarchy, like I said he's even been complicit in burning people alive, merely for disobeying an order.  He wasn't dead, you are also assuming you know what the other Primarchs are up to and that they are capable coming back anytime they want.

 

 

Guilliman ordered that Sister to get a quick and clean death, so not to be burned alive as is typical. He realizes he can't just dismantle the Ecclesiarchy, much to his chagrin, which you would know if you had actually read those two books and not hunted for quotes. He then severely punishes the preacher that put the Sister up to the shenanigans, with the Custodes noting he went light on the guy. Guilliman was furious that he had to have that Sister executed as she was an otherwise good soldier, and extra furious that Mathias put her up to it.  

 

 

 

 

When did the lore ever say that Dorn was dead? It always stated he was on a ship that exploded and all they found was his hand, so it was implied he was dead, but never said he was dead. So what retcons are you talking about.

Yeah I asked that question myself about a year ago, everyone seems to think he's dead and the only fluff I've read is that he's missing.

 

 

I think it might be Johnson. People talk about there being a big confrontation with guilliman but he did run the show after the heresy and I don't know why it would be a big shock to find him running things again now.

 

It feels like a melee focused, combat monster primarch is needed for the loyalists and Russ I think was fairly broken at the end if the heresy, his legion spent (and I think they are in a bad way currently as well) and his role as the emperor's executioner abandoned.

 

Johnson seems a more natural fit for a traitor hating, ruthless anti chaos monster who could lead his own personal crusade with a legion sized dark angels force to re conquer the galaxy.

It would be because of Imperium Secundus, the Lion was completely against that and thought it was a terrible idea. He only agreed because Sanguinius was to be the figure head, so I think if he comes back he will be quite pissed, seeing that Guilliman has always desired power. The Lion was far more broken, he wanted a fight to the death with Russ, thinking that there was nothing left in life to do anymore. Russ wasn't broken at all in comparison, he was actually quite stoic. I don't know where you are getting that, I think you are mixing him up with Bjorn after Russ left. Most of the legions strength was spent, but I don't see how that is relevant.

The Lion and Guilliman reached a mutual understanding and respect by the end of the Ruinstorm story. There is no grudge, animosity or anything like that between them.

 

As for who's coming back: It would be easiest to bring the Lion back because he's in a known location, and because he's been in a coma this whole time he can return as very much the same established character.

 

Russ, Dorn, Corax, Khan and Vulkan are all plausable to return also.

 

Just because they understand one another doesn't mean the lion agreed with Imperium Secundus, if he sees Guilliman doing it again he'll be pissed.

 

He certainly didn't do anything to stop Imperium Secundus, and was perfectly fine being Warmaster and doing his own thing while Guilliman and Sanguinius played politics on Macragge. 

 

I imagine much of what the Lion does depends on how Guilliman reacts - I imagine if it's something along the lines of "Oh, thank goodness you are back, Lion, please go kill our daemonic brothers" the Lion would be fine. Even someone as tunnel visioned as Lion El'johnson would realize that if Guilliman was the only one around, obviously he'd be in charge. 

 

Not so, the 12 lords of terra were always to be in-charge, Guillimans biggest weakness is his thirst for power, Imperial Secundus, his first Lord Commander position, his codex astartes and now he's made himself Lord Commander again.  The Angel was against Imperium Secundus because of Guilliman, he only agreed to it because Sanguinius was to be the figure head.  I think the Lion see's Guillimans weakness.  Also Guilliman not doing anything against the Imperial cult would be an issue, I mean Guilliman has been involved in allowing people to be burned at the stake, he's allowed the status qou to continue.  Also its more interesting to the lore if their is tension between Guilliman and the next Primarch, it would be a wasted opportunity for them to just bro out.

 

 

If you had actually read the books with Imperium Secundus involved, you would know Guilliman did everything he could to not get power as he didn't want to be a tyrant. He doesn't crave power - saying so would require a fundamental misunderstanding of his character. He only took the reins in 40k because the Imperium needed someone to steer it back on course, as it was going right off a cliff and the High Lords were paralyzed with indecision, as we see in the book involving the Custodes/the HLoT (I forgot the title, it was a recent book that ends with Guilliman arriving). 

 

We don't know if Guilliman handed it right back after he did what he had to before chasing after Fulgrim, but we do know that during the Beast Awakens era that Guilliman was held in such high regard that they used his name for the title of his position. The High Lords wouldn't do that if they felt he was making a grab at their power back then. 

 

If anyone was being sneaky/doing power grabs behind their brothers back, it was the Lion who was doing things without telling Guilliman and Sanguinius about what he was up to in Guilliman's realm and Sanguinius' empire. 

 

No he didn't, he let them burn her, I did read the books.  

 

Again I did read the books lol  Guilliman got miffed when Sanguinius started making decisions without him, what does that tell you. He wanted Sanguinius to just be a figure head as he knew no one would accept him taking the mantle like he did with Lord Commander, just usurping power for himself because of his incredible ego. Your bias makes you create the narrative you want.  He wrote the codex Astartes so that no one could wield the power of the legions and then he makes himself Lord commander of the whole military and navy...  

[SkimaskMohawk]

" 'Death by fire?’‘That is the penalty, my lord' "

 

"You shall be treated fairly, for your prior service...Take her away. Make her death quick and clean".

 

Sure you read it.

[TorvaldTheMild]

"You shall be treated fairly, for your prior service...Take her away. Make her death quick and clean".

 

Sure you read it.

Well that's just my head cannon then, I did read it.  If I was just reading quotes I would have gotten it right...

[Ishagu]

Guilliman did not allow her to be burned, and in fact she was only punished because during her trial she flat out lied to his face.

 

It was very unfortunate, as she was a true champion of the Imperium. He was livid.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Guilliman did not allow her to be burned, and in fact she was only punished because during her trial she flat out lied to his face.

 

It was very unfortunate, as she was a true champion of the Imperium. He was livid.

He was livid because she and Mathieu disobeyed him, he let the girl go off to die quite coldly and resolutely, he might not have burned her but, he still let her die no less and she may have disobeyed an order but she had good intentions.  He could have very easily pardoned her, at the very least made her become a repentia.

[Ishagu]

I think you're reaching your own conclusions there, and are letting personal biases paint a distorted picture of what transpired in that book.

 

That Sister of battle murdered multiple loyal servants of the Emperor and committed high treason during a time of war. Was it the right thing to do? Perhaps, but no one knew the full picture of what really transpired.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I think you're reaching your own conclusions there, and are letting personal biases paint a distorted picture of what transpired in that book.

 

That Sister of battle murdered multiple loyal servants of the Emperor and committed high treason during a time of war. Was it the right thing to do? Perhaps, but no one knew the full picture of what really transpired.

No, nowhere does he or the writer express any reluctance about him doing it, granted he asked her if she repented but after she said she would do it again for the Emperor he merely said "'so be it'. said Guilliman 'pronounce my judgment'" and then the story proceeds to him going nuts on Mathieu for lying to him and disobeying him.  It says nothing about him being livid about having to kill or or anything about him not wanting to or being forced to do it.  Even when he lists everything that was damaged because of Mathieu, he says 'and a good man is dead' etc. doesn't mention at that of Iolanth being a regretable death.  The way it reads is like I said quite cold.  Granted he could of been perturbed by it but it doesn't say so like you said.  He's actually quite calm, he only gets livid when everyone leaves the chambers and he chews out Mathieu.

[Ishagu]

He literally said he was angry about it, and we literally see him lose his temper over it moments later.

 

I don't believe that you've read this book!

[TorvaldTheMild]

He literally said he was angry about it, and we literally see him lose his temper over it moments later.

 

I don't believe that you've read this book!

Quote that.  Whatever believe what you want.

[Slips]

Im of the firm belief that, as a Primarch who was around during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy and now 40k is that hes had to personally sign the Death Warrants of untold billions and personally slain possibly millions.

 

At some point, death is basically a tool like any other and not something of all that great import in the grand scheme of things especially for a Transhuman being such as a Primarch.

[Ishagu]

The Sister he allowed to be executed literally murdered a space marine by blasting him with a Melta gun and also killed the heroic Imperial Guard commander who's forces held off the armies of the Death Guard until help arrived.

[TorvaldTheMild]

The Sister he allowed to be executed literally murdered a space marine by blasting him with a Melta gun and also killed the heroic Imperial Guard commander who's forces held off the armies of the Death Guard until help arrived.

Exactly you can't quote it, now does that mean you didn't read the book because you got one thing wrong?

[Ishagu]

I'm wondering what you were expecting to see from Guilliman? Tears for a potential traitor, at the very least a murderer?

 

Either way you've reached some unusual conclusions from the book and some very straightforward scenes in it.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I'm wondering what you were expecting to see from Guilliman? Tears for a potential traitor, at the very least a murderer?

 

Either way you've reached some unusual conclusions from the book and some very straightforward scenes in it.

Killing someone with good intentions would make you emotional.  No you have made statements that you have failed to prove, you are reaching your own conclusions about the scene.  He wasn't livid about killing her and now you are changing your argument to 'what did you expect him to do.'  It seems you are the one being biased here.  Thinking he sent her to burn is an easy mistake as they say the punishment should be burning before he said 'make it quick.'  I actually like Guilliman but he is extremely flawed as all the Primarchs are..  Pointing those failings out doesn't mean you have to dislike him.  I even thought that he should have been made to put up more of a fight against Angron seeing that Angron was being subdued by the communion and Angron is my boy. 

[War Angel]

Maybe some spoiler quotes, but also entirely off topic, and finally please stop quoting the quotes of quotes with quotes inside their own quoted quotes.

 

I’ve never read whatever your arguing about, but based on what both sides are saying I can agree that he was pretty mad. At least mad enough to have someone killed.

[b1soul]

The Lion would command the loyalty of all DA lineage chapters...that would be enough to challenge Guilliman's supremacy

 

Russ would have the loyalty of one non-codex chapter (maybe 1,500 to 2000 at most)

[TorvaldTheMild]

The Lion would command the loyalty of all DA lineage chapters...that would be enough to challenge Guilliman's supremacy

 

Russ would have the loyalty of one non-codex chapter (maybe 1,500 to 2000 at most)

How would the lion have the loyalty of all successor chapters?

[RikuEru]

 

 

The Lion would command the loyalty of all DA lineage chapters...that would be enough to challenge Guilliman's supremacy

 

Russ would have the loyalty of one non-codex chapter (maybe 1,500 to 2000 at most)

How would the lion have the loyalty of all successor chapters?

...I feel like you just ask so you can provoke even more, but let's have a go:

 

Because the "Unforgiven" (= All Dark Amgels Successors) are already a, half secretly, very closely knit group, with Azrael being the venerated leader of them all. Mind you, he can not command them without being challenged on things.

 

The other Chapter Masters even turned to him for advice on how to integrate the Primaris into their forces and the question IF the worthy among them should be allowed to be introduced into the Inner Circle. And they bowed to his decision that he deemed them worthy Sons of the Lion to know the secrets. Some did so without question, some did with reluctance, but they all did.

 

They are not a Legion, but they are as close to a Legion as can be, without getting the Highlords of Terra and Inquisition to come down on them hard.

[DeadFingers]

In other words, if the Lion were to return, he doesn't need to reunite all the Succesors under the Dark Angels as a Legion again, nor does he need to become the explicit leader of every Succesor Chapter, because he'd have the loyalty of every Chapter Master anyway. Specially if he comes back as part of a narrative involving Luther and the Fallen, which is rather likely to happen.

[Ishagu]

The whole "DA could re-form as a Legion" insinuation is why I'd like to see the Lion return. There's great potential for interesting stories and drama.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

The Lion would command the loyalty of all DA lineage chapters...that would be enough to challenge Guilliman's supremacy

 

Russ would have the loyalty of one non-codex chapter (maybe 1,500 to 2000 at most)

How would the lion have the loyalty of all successor chapters?

...I feel like you just ask so you can provoke even more, but let's have a go:

 

Because the "Unforgiven" (= All Dark Amgels Successors) are already a, half secretly, very closely knit group, with Azrael being the venerated leader of them all. Mind you, he can not command them without being challenged on things.

 

The other Chapter Masters even turned to him for advice on how to integrate the Primaris into their forces and the question IF the worthy among them should be allowed to be introduced into the Inner Circle. And they bowed to his decision that he deemed them worthy Sons of the Lion to know the secrets. Some did so without question, some did with reluctance, but they all did.

 

They are not a Legion, but they are as close to a Legion as can be, without getting the Highlords of Terra and Inquisition to come down on them hard.

 

No I legitimately didn't know.  I'm not trying to provoke.  

[Guest]

The Lion would command the loyalty of all DA lineage chapters...that would be enough to challenge Guilliman's supremacy

Russ would have the loyalty of one non-codex chapter (maybe 1,500 to 2000 at most)

The SWs are more than 2000 depending on what you reference, then there are several SW successors thanks to the Ultima founding. Additionally the lost companies coming back, and the return of a the 30k SW (Ashes of Prospero), plus Russ's retinue. There is a lot more SWs out there then people know due to how unexplored they are.

 

I don't think even with all the DA's united, The Lion can stand against Guilliman. The sheer amount of UM chapters old and primaris, plus the Custodes, and several other UM sympathisers is just overwhelmingly large.

 

Now should Lion receive his right to be a equal ruler with Guilliman, of course as should any loyal Primarch. They all have their own strengths and unless Big E or Sanguinius returns, shouldnt rule over one another.