Iron Hands nerf?

[Closet Skeleton]

Just got back from a 34 man 5 game ITC tournament.

 

First place was Genestealer Cult, 2nd and 3rd were Iron Hands and only one of them had a leviathan. 2nd place had a lascannon chaplain dread, 2 lascannon/missile launcher venerable dreads, 1 Executioner, 1 10 man stalker unit then a bunch of scout and infiltrator squads; third place was 3 storm ravens, 2 autocannon mortis dreads, leviathan and 3 missile launcher tactical squads.

 

In the 5th round the second place list beat a Leviathan, Redemptor and Triple Executioner list who ended up coming 14th with 3 wins just behind my all infantry Imperial Fists list (I had 4 wins and with 1 loss in round 3 against the single Executioner list that came second). The third place list's 5th round game was against the Cult player who ended up coming first and was the only player to win all five games.

 

The Triple Executioner list's other loss was by a single point in round 1 against a Halequin/Drukhari list with 3 ravagers, 9 haywire bikes, 6 talos.

 

All the Iron Hands lists had the Iron Stone and Ferrios of course.

 

Highest placed non-Iron Hands marines was Ultramarines in 5th with Tigurius, Calgar, Cassius, Deredo dread, 2 4 lascannon and cyclone launcher relic contemptors along with a thunderfire, 5 boltstorm aggressors and some other primaris infantry. There were quite a few lower placing marine lists mostly raven guard and crimson fists.

[Medjugorje]

The Iron Hands FAQ has been held back by GW for some reason and is a week overdue. I am concerned that they will react to the community response to IH with something of a knee-jerk nerf. I do think Iron Hands are very top tier right now but not for the reasons or with the units that are most commonly mentioned in the online community so a rapid nerf now would quite likely be targeting the wrong things anyway.

 

Despite being on the receiving end of IH in-game power i would much rather let it play out for a couple of months and see where/if a nerf needs to be applied than have GW respond to the internet hate directed their way. 

it has never been the unit who is OP. Its just the relic.  Only this one .... relic.

 

Fix this ironstone (works jsut on one unit OR just one round) and everything is okay.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The Ironstone by itself isn't that bad, and it's effect will be felt less when Imperial Fists land next week due to their super-Doctrine. It's the Ironstone plus the half-damage strat on the big FW Dreadnoughts that breaks people.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

The Iron Hands FAQ has been held back by GW for some reason and is a week overdue. I am concerned that they will react to the community response to IH with something of a knee-jerk nerf. I do think Iron Hands are very top tier right now but not for the reasons or with the units that are most commonly mentioned in the online community so a rapid nerf now would quite likely be targeting the wrong things anyway.

 

Despite being on the receiving end of IH in-game power i would much rather let it play out for a couple of months and see where/if a nerf needs to be applied than have GW respond to the internet hate directed their way. 

it has never been the unit who is OP. Its just the relic.  Only this one .... relic.

 

Fix this ironstone (works jsut on one unit OR just one round) and everything is okay.

 

 

I think it is worth throwing in some results from last weekend

 

https://www.battle-report.com/2019/10/13/2019-battle-for-salvation-grand-tournament/

 

The thing is that when you look at those IH lists they are not building around the Ironstone, they might not even bother to take the Ironstone at all. After all if you are all about infiltrating daft numbers of Invictors/Eliminators/Sniper Scouts then the Ironstone is a bit peripheral - the the ability to reroll 1s to hit and ignore the movement penalty with Heavy weapons is a really big deal.

 

The possible issue with the Ironstone is that it enables a really *boring* list type rather than a really unbeatable one. Whether that needs a fix from GW is not so obviously clear.

[MeltaRange]

 

 

The Iron Hands FAQ has been held back by GW for some reason and is a week overdue. I am concerned that they will react to the community response to IH with something of a knee-jerk nerf. I do think Iron Hands are very top tier right now but not for the reasons or with the units that are most commonly mentioned in the online community so a rapid nerf now would quite likely be targeting the wrong things anyway.

 

Despite being on the receiving end of IH in-game power i would much rather let it play out for a couple of months and see where/if a nerf needs to be applied than have GW respond to the internet hate directed their way. 

it has never been the unit who is OP. Its just the relic.  Only this one .... relic.

 

Fix this ironstone (works jsut on one unit OR just one round) and everything is okay.

 

 

I think it is worth throwing in some results from last weekend

 

https://www.battle-report.com/2019/10/13/2019-battle-for-salvation-grand-tournament/

 

The thing is that when you look at those IH lists they are not building around the Ironstone, they might not even bother to take the Ironstone at all. After all if you are all about infiltrating daft numbers of Invictors/Eliminators/Sniper Scouts then the Ironstone is a bit peripheral - the the ability to reroll 1s to hit and ignore the movement penalty with Heavy weapons is a really big deal.

 

The possible issue with the Ironstone is that it enables a really *boring* list type rather than a really unbeatable one. Whether that needs a fix from GW is not so obviously clear.

 

 

What do you mean?  I scrolled down that list and first off:

 

• 60% of the Space Marine armies are IH, IH successors, or have Iron Hands in them.  There's a couple RG, and a couple UM.  The RG ones are really just gimmick lists.
• Of those Iron Hands armies, several were Iron Hands successors, (presumably because people are using their custom chapter as IH because they are clearly the best) and in those armies you need to spend a CP for the Ironstone.  That discourages building around it.
• Army 1 & Army 13 don't note a relic, but it's 100% the Ironstone.  That Captain on Bike is meant to rush up and provide the Ironstone buff for the Invictors.
• 3 of the top 5 finishers are Iron Hands.  Both of the top 2 armies have the Ironstone.

 

I don't really see it.  The Ironstone is so good, it's a never leave home without.  Even for the Iron Air Force, it's still worth it just for turn 1.  I think Army 1 in particular is pretty interesting to note because it highlights all the different uses for the Ironstone.  Triple Autocannon Invictors and a Bike Captain?  Sure!  Double Executioner and a Leviathan?  Absolutely!  Iron Air Force?  Enjoy!

 

I hope they nerf Iron Hands and simply make 2 changes:

1. Nerf the Ironstone so it can activate once per game, or so that it affects one vehicle, both chosen at the beginning of any battle round.
2. Nerf Calculated Fury so that it only re-rolls 1s to hit if the vehicle does not move and shoots all it's weapons at the same target.

 

BOOM.  Done.  Still very powerful, still useful, but not a mindless, boring steamrolling.

Edited October 14, 2019 by MeltaRange

[MeltaRange]

The Ironstone by itself isn't that bad, and it's effect will be felt less when Imperial Fists land next week due to their super-Doctrine. It's the Ironstone plus the half-damage strat on the big FW Dreadnoughts that breaks people.

 

I completely disagree, for what it's worth.  If the Ironstone was one unit only and still stacked with Duty Eternal, I'd actually be fine with someone bringing that combo with a Leviathan because it's just one unit to avoid/tie up/ignore.  

 

It's the fact that it currently works on ALL the units around it, meaning the Leviathan PLUS the 2 Executioners.  Not to mention the frustration of watching whatever you shoot heal 6+d3 wounds, AND double their wounds for damage profile, AND a 5++, AND a 6+++.  Come on GW, gimme a break!

 

Notice how almost no one is complaining about Tigirius.  Do you think they would if his aura was every unit within 3" is -1 to hit?  Of course.

Edited October 14, 2019 by MeltaRange

[Ishagu]

Some of you might know that the Iron Hands have caused quite the splash on the tabletop. There were multiple large tournaments over the last few days, including the Battle for Salvation - all of them won by Iron Hands, all of them featuring multiple IH and Astartes lists in the top 8.

 

Its clear that the Iron Hands are a bit too powerful at the moment, more so than other Astartes and significantly over the power levels of some other factions. The lists that dominate are also quite varied because their traits and abilities can boost multiple different builds above and beyond what might be expected.

 

Now, let's be clear: There is nothing wrong with Iron Hands being the strongest Astartes faction, but the disparity can't be too high. Also, there are several builds which can create a toxic experience for players.

 

If I was working at the GW FAQ team I would introduce the following changes:

 

 

-Increase the cost of the named Iron Father to 200 points

 

-Change the Iron Stone so it only affects a single vehicle within 3"

The unit must be nominated at the start of the turn. Alternatively keep it as it is, but alter it so it can only be used once per game for a whole turn.

 

-Change the character Dreadnought strat so it can only be used once per game, or change it so only Dreadnoughts with a wound characteristic of 10 or more can be nominated.

 

-Remove the Dreadnought keyword from the Leviathan Dreadnought, or alter the stratagem to halve damage so that it can't be used on Relic variants (Or Hellforged if chaos get a similar one in future).

 

-Increase a few psychic power warp charge values.

 

 

The Iron Hands would still be very durable, offensively strong and mobile if these changes were introduced. Remember, they won a tournament BEFORE their supplament was even released. A few of the rule combinations are simply too much and cause a bit of grief on the tabletop.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

Rather easy to be honest.

 - Limit the character Dread Stratagem to only one use

 - Make the half damage for Dreads Stratagem more expensive (it's not just for IH super strong after all)

 

I'm not sure it would take more. The rest comes from being able to move&shoot with heavy weapons without penalty while also re-rolling 1s to hit. Also the super repair but that's from a named character that is easy enough sniped since IH don't have self-repair like AdMech characters have. Feirros probably needs to see an increase in points anyway.

 

I'm one of the few who really doesn't mind the Iron Stone though. The aura is tiny and compared to the character dread + half damage to dreads combination the effect is really minor. It's not like we want to take all the toys away from Iron Hands. Let them have a bit of fun too.

 

 

That being said, in no way I think they should already receive the first nerfs. Give people time to figure things out and the meta to develop. It's likely they are too strong but so have been other factions for a far longer time already. Who knows what future Codexes might offer.

[Ishagu]

Normally I would agree and urge patience, but the dominance had been more absolute than anything we've seen, perhaps more so than even Ynnari at the start of 8th...

 

They've already won 5+ major and gt sized tournaments lol

Edited October 14, 2019 by Ishagu

[Dark Shepherd]

They havent done the FAQ for Iron Hands yet have they? Rules fixes will be there or not til the Spring FAQ

[emperorpants]

Yeah, there are tourny results coming in from all over, as in several GT's, and it seems IH are dominating...so the results are exactly what I thought they would be.  IH being OP.

 

It also seems that when I said that IH are actually quite mobile and have ways to mitigate all weaknesses was accurate too.

 

It seems there are multiple ways to play IH that are dominate and amazing and oppressive.  

 

Not sure what GW was thinking with the balance.  

Edited October 14, 2019 by emperorpants

[MeltaRange]

Yeah, there are tourny results coming in from all over, as in several GT's, and it seems IH are dominating...so the results are exactly what I thought they would be.  IH being OP.

 

It also seems that when I said that IH are actually quite mobile and have ways to mitigate all weaknesses was accurate too.

 

It seems there are multiple ways to play IH that are dominate and amazing and oppressive.  

 

Not sure what GW was thinking with the balance.  

 

I honestly don't know what they were thinking.  I know this thread is talking about "competitive play" for the most part, but we've barely touched on just regular casual play.

 

People love to say "just play the mission" and yeah, it's certainly a point.  However, for casual play, having invincible models walk forward destroying everything while you advance your guys behind cover and grab objectives is not fun.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

We all know they won't nerf IH, they'll just buff everyone else.

 

That said, it's good (in my opinion) that Iron Hands are getting their turn in the spotlight. How long's it been since they were popular, interesting or at all present in the meta? With the next 'Dex probably being something Eldar, it'll be back to xenos lists again before long.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The codices are being updated and re-leveled, guys. We might seem OP now...but give it 6 months.

[emperorpants]

 

Yeah, there are tourny results coming in from all over, as in several GT's, and it seems IH are dominating...so the results are exactly what I thought they would be.  IH being OP.

 

It also seems that when I said that IH are actually quite mobile and have ways to mitigate all weaknesses was accurate too.

 

It seems there are multiple ways to play IH that are dominate and amazing and oppressive.  

 

Not sure what GW was thinking with the balance.  

 

I honestly don't know what they were thinking.  I know this thread is talking about "competitive play" for the most part, but we've barely touched on just regular casual play.

 

People love to say "just play the mission" and yeah, it's certainly a point.  However, for casual play, having invincible models walk forward destroying everything while you advance your guys behind cover and grab objectives is not fun.

 

Indeed.  Casual play is where most of the feel bads will come from.  In competitive people will expect it, in causal though people are going to not have fun.  At all. 

 

It honestly seems like it would be more difficult to build a non competitive list than it would be to make a competitive one in some ways, due to everything getting such powerful and easy to use buffs.  Hench, casual games turning into un fun blowouts.  

[emperorpants]

The codices are being updated and re-leveled, guys. We might seem OP now...but give it 6 months.

 

While true,  we have already seen that IH is heads and shoulders better than the other space marine supplements that have been released.  It's not even close.  IH blow Ultras, WS, and RG out of the water and in some ways do their things better than them.  It's comical almost.  This means that the internal balance of the supplements was out of whack from the word go.  Doesn't inspire confidence.  If new things are released that are on IH levels of power, than Ultras, RG, WS, and more than likely IF and Sallies are in trouble.

[Aothaine]

I think this is the craziest reaction I've seen to a codex ever. Did I just miss this end-of-the-world reaction to the Ultramarine/White Scars codex? This is pretty crazy how people are attacking this release. Seriously chill-out and relax. Lets see what the other releases bring. IH are just the flavor of the month right now.

[MARK0SIAN]

Yeah, I’d be tempted to leave everything exactly as it is until at least the next codex is out. That way we can see if Iron hands really are an outlier or actually just average.

 

The last thing we want is a repeat of the first cycle where Marines were at the lower end or even worse; a knee jerk nerf now so marines start way behind the power level of subsequent codexes.

 

Now it may turn out (probably will) that the Iron hands stuff is an outlier and needs nerfing but let’s not burn our bridges until we’ve seen the power level of the next lot of armies.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The armies are being releveled. Patience, my young padawan. Marines will be bottom of the heap again soon.

[Charlo]

IH kind of play how Marines always should have, big guns, mobile and resilient.

 

I say wait, like others have said the whole picture isn't complete yet.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

The codices are being updated and re-leveled, guys. We might seem OP now...but give it 6 months.

While true, we have already seen that IH is heads and shoulders better than the other space marine supplements that have been released. It's not even close. IH blow Ultras, WS, and RG out of the water and in some ways do their things better than them. It's comical almost. This means that the internal balance of the supplements was out of whack from the word go. Doesn't inspire confidence. If new things are released that are on IH levels of power, than Ultras, RG, WS, and more than likely IF and Sallies are in trouble.

Were you here for the Edition change? When C:SM dropped and the only army with a codex was blowing Index-only armies out of the water left, right, and center?

 

That's what this. Be patient, grit your teeth, and do your best to handle the cyber-boys-in-black. Everything will be leveled eventually.

[Panzer]

We all know they won't nerf IH, they'll just buff everyone else.

 

That said, it's good (in my opinion) that Iron Hands are getting their turn in the spotlight. How long's it been since they were popular, interesting or at all present in the meta? With the next 'Dex probably being something Eldar, it'll be back to xenos lists again before long.

 

About two years when the deathstar was rolling strong at the end of 7e. Not as long as it was for other chapters (if it ever happened for them). ;)

[MeltaRange]

I think this is the craziest reaction I've seen to a codex ever. Did I just miss this end-of-the-world reaction to the Ultramarine/White Scars codex? This is pretty crazy how people are attacking this release. Seriously chill-out and relax. Lets see what the other releases bring. IH are just the flavor of the month right now.

 

I personally believe that this could be the most broken codex ever, that's why I'm commenting on it so much.

 

From this past weekend:

 

9 GT sized or greater events; 36 top 4 placings.

 

Of those, 24 were Space Marines or had a detachment.

 

Of those, 18 were Iron Hands.

 

Of the 9 events, Iron Hands won 7 of them

[MeltaRange]

The codices are being updated and re-leveled, guys. We might seem OP now...but give it 6 months.

 

If this is true, then why aren't the other chapters being singled out for being way too good?  

[Aothaine]

 

I personally believe that this could be the most broken codex ever, that's why I'm commenting on it so much.

 

From this past weekend:

 

9 GT sized or greater events; 36 top 4 placings.

 

Of those, 24 were Space Marines or had a detachment.

 

Of those, 18 were Iron Hands.

 

Of the 9 events, Iron Hands won 7 of them

 

 

Okay. But similar results were done with C:SM when it launched, Eldar are still SUPER strong. I know that GW will apply the correct pressure to the supplement. They are strong. I agree. But they are still losing to older codices and will start to fall off once the Xenos start getting their updates. I'm super interested to see what they do with Tyranids and Imperial Guard. 

 

 

 

 

 

If this is true, then why aren't the other chapters being singled out for being way too good?  

 

Pretty sure there has been push back on several codexes. I know that C:SM was one of them. Remember the days of Bobby-G and the Flyer spam? No one wants to even deal with Eldar. Eldar have been super strong for years now. IH are getting so much attention because they were just released. Give it a few months and we'll be talking about the next op-codex release.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Aothaine