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Iron Hands nerf?


tychobi
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Until I see evidence of a grand codex re-work for every faction I'm not going to assume anything. There is no evidence whatsoever that this new codex is ushering a new era of books. The Astartes were a special case due to the high number of unit releases they got AFTER the release of the 1st book, and the game testers have stated that GW were still finding their feet in terms of rules when the 1st books were written.

 

Chaos Astartes got a codex release just a few months ago too, they won't be getting a new one for over a year at the absolute very least.

 

We'll likely see more campaigns in future introducing new units and rules, and perhaps sub-faction specific supplaments, but I do expect some more codex releases in the future for the likes of Grey Knights and some other low performing armies.

 

Iron Hands are not balanced correctly with the rest of the chapters, and we're already seeing top players like Mike Porter jump ship to them. Their dominance in recent tournaments has been near total - we're taking about multiple lathe events, some with triple digit participation. I'll link some screen grabs from BCP to illustrate the point.

 

Remember what I said: It's perfectly fine for Iron Hands to be the best chapter, but the gap between other chapters and other armies shouldn't be this wide.

 

I understand where you are coming from Ishagu. But we still need to wait. Let the meta shift a bit before applying nerfs. Balancing takes time and needs more results than a few GTs. I'm not saying that the Iron Hands don't need nerfs. Just saying that we need to wait it out. Get more results and let people build lists that might just counter or help against the IH. I don't see anyone yelling for nerfs against Ultramarine dakka lists. Every supplement so far is really good at something. IHs use heavy weapons but they have less attacks with them. 

 

I'm still struggling to decide which chapter to build lol! I keep jumping around ever day right now. Thankfully I'm not building my army until Jan 2020 at the earliest, gives me time to plan everything out and build the exact army/list I want. Right now it is IH, but with scouts and land speeder storms. But it is also something that can be used in other armies as well. Just have to take the hit on firing heavy weapons.

 

Jebus.. I'm going off on a tangent there sorry. I'm with the "test more" crowd.

Edited by Aothaine
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Iron Hands are clearly the new hotness in town and they will be at the top tables for a while I am sure.

 

The question is whether the meta can adapt to them. One of the problems with the pre-nerf Castellan was the practically the only counter was a Castellan of your own. So can anything sink Iron Hands apart from other Iron Hands?

 

It looks like their new builds are aura-based so they will be castle builds. A couple of the new Impulsors with Orbital Command Array combined with the orbital bombardment stratagem could dish out quite a few MWs on those clustered units. Snipers to kill key characters could be important (although anyone apart from Eliminators will struggle to pull this off). We will have to see what other armies can come up with that might counter this. DE with massed Haywire to spam mortal wounds might get good mileage too.

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You say we should wait, but GW shot down the Scorpius+Chronus+Stratagem combination within weeks.

 

Why is that fine, but we should be happy with a chapter who's Dreadnought can't be removed by a 6000 point Warlord Titan? Lol

 

GW have already set the bar for how long nerfs should take to be implemented, and it's mere weeks. The question remains if they will be sufficient to tone down the tabletop toxicity this chapter can cause.

Edited by Ishagu
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Until I see evidence of a grand codex re-work for every faction I'm not going to assume anything. There is no evidence whatsoever that this new codex is ushering a new era of books.

This is my objection. Heck, with Psychic Awakening reportedly dominating the release schedule for the next six months, it seems any theoretical “reorientation” of the system via Codexes won’t be complete for two to three years. I think it’s probably okay to fix some obviously busted Iron Hands combos before Q4 2022. :p

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If there's one thing that needs a change right now it's the 'does not apply to relic dreads'.

 

 

That aside, we've seen the new meta, but we've not seen the new meta counters yet,

e.g. Raven Guard could easily take apart many of thoose Iron Hands lists by taking out key characters.

 

Thing is: Dreads have always been a favorite of many, so people have (most of) the models for an Iron Hands list already.

Meanwhile, the counter units are new releases and/or not yet well enough received that people could field them in the required composition/amount.

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The question is whether the meta can adapt to them. One of the problems with the pre-nerf Castellan was the practically the only counter was a Castellan of your own. So can anything sink Iron Hands apart from other Iron Hands?

 

I'm not overly worried, I think the Imperial Fists will put a damper on the IH juggernaut. The current list I'm crunching numbers on does ~38 wounds to IH Repulsors in a turn if you put everything into them, ~36 if they bring Feirros in realistic conditions (Mobile Castle Buffed, Flyers unbuffed and moving, Eliminators unbuffed, scouts hiding out of LoS so not shooting). All of the non-Flyer guns have a range of 36" or 48" too, so hiding from the firepower seems unlikely too.

 

With a hard (popular, since they're also marines) counter this should muzzle IF a good bit.

 

I'm not commenting on whether they need to be tuned down, I'll wait and see for that - but if i can come up with lists that should dismantle the IH juggernaut I'm 100% sure top minds already have plans that we'll see in the coming months.

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I have yet to face IH so far but its coming. But which version Idk.. the castle, the highly mobile flying one, the character dread spam with oolos weapons one?  

 

I did read from a post on dakka today fwiw it goes as follows:

 

Speaking to one of the play testers today about the IH issues. While he's bound by contract not to disclose specifics of things. He did say there was a MASSIVE error in communication in regards to the IH book. Which is part of why the FAQ is late.

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I think the tournament results that are going around social media mean it's inevitable. No idea how they'll do it though. Hilariously bad rule writing by GW. Did Matt Ward write it by any chance? Even if someone decides to run the maths to the nth degree and prove they're not that broken, they are face value look so much stronger than other releases it's inevitable they'll get the brunt of any reaction.

Edited by Hantheman
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Yeah I dunno. We'll see what happens I have at least three months before I start investing so I have time to let the dust settle. I still don't think IH are better than UM or WS. They just focus on different aspects of the game. They may be a top tier army right now, but I am still seeing Genestealer Cults in top 10 and Ultramarines as well as others. I think people need to relax and let GW do their job. They are so much better than they used to be now and I think people are forgetting how good we have it right now.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. Said my peace. Everyone have a great day/night! :D

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I... agree entirely with Ishagu.

 

Come the Apocalypse Allies indeed :P

 

When IH were first released I was firmly in the ‘wait and see’ camp. The results are coming thick and fast though, and they all point to IH being overtuned. I think we’re fast approaching being able to say ‘IH need some fixes to bring them into line with the other Marine Supplements’.

 

The standout issues seem to be:

 

- the Ironstone, which is best fixed IMO by making it one-use-only for a phase, or otherwise making it a targeted ability at one unit, rather than an aura

- the half damage stratagem for Dreadnoughts, which I wouldn’t want to see banned for Relic units; instead, I think it should be akin to Rotate Ion Shields - 1CP, 2CP for Contemptor and Deredeo keywords, 3CP for Leviathan keyword - a pure IH list will run out of CP fast burning that on a Levi

- rerolling 1s to hit on moving heavy weapons, particularly flyers with +1 to hit; best solution there IMO is to errata the Doctrine bonus to be move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty, reroll 1s to hit with heavy weapons if the unit did not move (so you can benefit from one of the bonuses at a time, but not both)

- psychic powers, which I’m not sure about, so maybe some warp charge increases?

 

I think that’d be enough, personally.

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Looking at the tourney results more....its obscene. Also, turns out the repulsor was played plenty. I'm not really sure how the claim can be made that IH aren't op. To be this dominant this quickly? It's not balanced. Not even remotely. Ultras and WS didn't do anything close to this when they dropped, and aren't doing anything close to it now.

 

I mean, I guess I just find it a little silly. Literally everything I claimed is being proven accurate. The tourney results speak for themselves.

 

Like meltarange said, I also am not trying to rag on on IH. It's just they are so blatantly strong compared to the other releases, as shown by the tourney results, it's kinda crazy.

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You say we should wait, but GW shot down the Scorpius+Chronus+Stratagem combination within weeks.

 

Why is that fine, but we should be happy with a chapter who's Dreadnought can't be removed by a 6000 point Warlord Titan? Lol

 

GW have already set the bar for how long nerfs should take to be implemented, and it's mere weeks. The question remains if they will be sufficient to tone down the tabletop toxicity this chapter can cause.

They’ve only done that in certain instances, many needed nerfs have taken months and months whilst some armies have been top tier since pretty much the index days.

 

And let’s look at Grey Knights, GW might be very quick to swing the nerf bat but they’re absolutely Glacially slow when it comes to buffing underperforming armies. It’s taken Marines 2 Years to be bought up to par and Grey Knights are still lagging.

 

This is my main concern, if we hand out the nerfs now and then everyone else gets updated rules then marines will be at the bottom again waiting a long time to be brought back up.

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The nerfs have to be carefully implemented. Iron Hands should absolutely be a top tier army, that shouldn't change - I'm happy to see this chapter in the spotlight. They are simply too good, however. Invincible units should not exist, their character is grossly under-costed,there are too many powerful combos in this chapter alone. Why are they the best Flyer army now? As an example.

 

What I'm more worried about are point increases for units that are only really powerful with the Iron Hands that have a negative impact on all other Chapters.

 

This isn't OK, 50% of all armies in the top 4 in 9 seperate tournaments are Iron Hands, and they win 7 out of 9 events lol: (Link stolen from another topic)

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/dhrgmm/pandas_weekend_rundown_10121013/

Edited by Ishagu
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The thing people seem to be missing is what is making these lists so powerful isn't Feirros, a triple Repulsor Executioner gunline, and buckets of dice. 

 

Turns out Feirros isn't in many of them. I long believed that the slow-moving firebase playstyle that was pushed forward as the list to beat is rather more aptly described as a gatekeeper rather than tournament winning. It'll plaster some, and get woefully outplayed by others, making it far from a TAC option. The larger the tournament, the more likely you'll face the poison. 

 

The real danger is high quality, high impact shooting that is mobile AND durable. You often don't even need the chapter tactic or Feirros - successors give you more bang for the buck. This is what marine vehicles everywhere should have been. The good news is that the units that gain the most effective offensive power increase are ones that nobody else brings. Those fliers taking a hit in points cost will be sad to see, but it's probably the fastest way to resolve this nightmare. They're already trash to everyone else. 

 

The only way I can see that offensive punch curtailed is if Iron Hands are forced to swap doctrines. Or if the doctrine was clarified to only apply to infantry carried heavy weapons. The Ironstone probably needs to be tweaked as well. To realistically drop it to the same level as the other relics in the book it would need to apply only once per game. 

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Eh... this is a hard stiuation honestly.  I mean, people have called this happening since we got our first look at the IH codex, seemed quite obvious honestly.  Quite a few GTs finish with IH not just winning... but dominating.  Even when Ynnari were complete non sense they weren't doing what the IH just did.  I really want to say we should wait and see, and despite my thinking better of it I will.... but I wouldn't exactly object if GW handed out a few nerfs because honestly I don't want to deal with half a year of a faction even less fun to play against than Ynnari was if thats how it turns out which is the early feeling I am getting.

 

See a lot of people dismissing Ishagu completely, and while I do think its just barely to early for this, also seems some of the responses are just out of spite of a "Its our turn!" mentality more so than being concerned about the health of the game as a whole.  I am more worried about the health of the game in light of these extremely significant power creeps of late.  I don't think any one wants a marine v marine meta, which is what the GT points to, as what.. 3/4 of the top 4 were marines and only 1 of 9 was won by a non marine list?  Its certainly worth thinking about at this stage, and if I was GW I would be watching very closely the next set of GTs.

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Might be a bit early but do we have a breakdown of what units are common in popular Marine builds now? Iron Hands obviously have lots of vehicles but there needs to be some infantry behind that. What about other winning builds?

 

Is it Primaris Infantry finally shining with the new Doctrines? Most armies have access to weaponry that will mulch 2W MEQs pretty quickly. Seeing Marines dominating at this stage is not entirely suprising. The new codex is clearly a top-tier army-builder and opponents have not yet had time to develop counters. Once people identify the key units that make the best lists tick, they will start developing lists and/or strategies to counter them.

 

The question is whether that can be done without crippling the rest of the list or limiting its ability to deal with other armies. If it can be done then Marines will become just another influence on the meta. If Iron Hands are hard to counter with an equal points army then they should definitely be candidates for a nerfing.

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To be honest part of the issue is GWs very slow release system. Makes every other army feel so rubbish compared to the codex creep, yeah my codex may be great in... 8 months. So until then I can’t really compete (I mean my army has been bad the entire edition so that’s nothing new Edited by Hantheman
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The concern is that Iron Hands have 80% win rate, and the lists are significantly varied.

 

-Iron Hands Air force

-Iron Hands Repulsors and support

-Iron Hands Dreads and support

 

It indicates the Iron Hands faction core rules might simply be too powerful, and there are multiple over-powered unit combinations.

I hope GW doesn't nerf units across the board that completely ruin the other chapters.

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I'll preface this by saying that I'm a big iron hands fanboy. I think a lot of the reactions to IH doing well are kneejerk and a little hyperbole. Yes they're strong, definitely up there for the strongest astartes faction currently but they're definitely not unbeatable and definitely don't have unkillable dreads. Mortal wound output ruins the top lists, haywire and smites etc.

 

The reason these IH lists are winning is because they go entirely against the current meta. They shut down Tau riptides, leman Russes, disintegrator cannons etc. Eldar flying circus has ruled the top tables for absolutely ages yet it isn't compared in this thread. IH have been out for 2/3 weeks now and the meta hadn't had time to adjust to it yet.

 

On the topic of points, while I think that points are for sure not the way to balance the game I do think that Ferrum needs a bump. IMO 140 sounds about right to me, his invuln aura is okay and is only good for stuff that isn't relic like repulsors, the repair is good but needs a stratagem to make it great. The big thing IMO is the BS buff, it makes a unit 2+ BS which means a vehicle on its bottom or middle bracket will be bumped by 2-3 BS. He makes units more survivable and one unit better at shooting which in my opinion makes him not as effective as Calgar for example

 

Also I think the ironstone shouldn't come into effect if the half damage strat is active

Edited by TrawlingCleaner
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The Iron Father would still be in most lists if his cost was 250.

 

-He heals 3 wounds, easily 6

-He guarantees a unit can fire at BS2+ even if actually reduced to a low bracket

-He hands out an aura that potentially reduces damage by 33% which stacks with the 16% improvement in durability granted by Flesh is Weak

-He has an awesome ranged attack and is no slouch in combat.

 

The Iron Stone is the best relic in the game, bar none.

 

The Iron Hands Doctrine is too powerful, granting no movement penalties in combination with re rolls and the increase in AP to all heavy weapons. Leads to random stuff like Iron Hands having the best pilots in the Imperium.

 

 

-Feirros should be 250

-Iron Stone should be a once per game use item

-The Iron Hands Doctrine should only apply to heavy weapons carried by Infantry models

-Chaplain Dread Strat should be one use per game

 

And even if these changes are made they will still be the best chapter thanks to the incredible chapter tactic, psychic powers and stratagems they have.

Edited by Ishagu
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Has anyone taken a deep look at the new stuff Eldar are getting?

I'm almost clueless on Eldar stuff so I can't really judge; but it sounds like they do get some dirty stuff, and from what I hear most people would agree they already have access to some of the nastiest stuff in the game.

Worth considering perhaps? It could be an indicator of how the overall direction of the game is changing, and from there we can judge if the Iron Hands really are a big problem. I'm still of the position that I'll be entirely unsurprised if this time next year, there are a bunch of new codexes out that make Marines look like child's play again.

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Eldar got some cool stuff in psychic awakening, but nothing has really increased their power. Dark Eldar I think benefit more from the book.

 

The Yncarne is better, and Drazhar + Incubi are now viable.

Edited by Ishagu
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Has anyone taken a deep look at the new stuff Eldar are getting?

 

I'm almost clueless on Eldar stuff so I can't really judge; but it sounds like they do get some dirty stuff, and from what I hear most people would agree they already have access to some of the nastiest stuff in the game.

 

Worth considering perhaps? It could be an indicator of how the overall direction of the game is changing, and from there we can judge if the Iron Hands really are a big problem. I'm still of the position that I'll be entirely unsurprised if this time next year, there are a bunch of new codexes out that make Marines look like child's play again.

There is definitely nothing in Blood of then Phoenix that matches anything in the new SM Dex. In fact there is little that is better than the existing Alaitoc Trait. Most of the stuff represents alternatives to existing abilities rather than something that stacks on top of them like Doctrines do for Marines. A quick summary is below:

 

  • "Rune of Fortune" allow Psykers to replace their default Smite with a different power. Mostly low level powers although "Ghost Walk" for +2" charge will probably see some use.
  • Exarch powers. Each aspect now gets a range of Exarch powers but these are replacements for the default ones listed in the Codex. For 1CP, 1 Exarch from each shrine can take a new Power in addition to their basic power. Some of these are nice but none of them are particularly powerful.
  • DIY Traits/Obsessions: Mostly fluffy although there are a couple of nice ones in there such as one that resembles the Salamanders trait for rerolls. Several are limited to a single type of troop (Aspects, Guardians, Wraiths) or a single class of weapons (shuriken). Overall they allow you to create some pretty fluffy themed lists but I don't see anything that will displace Alaitoc as the default trait.

Blood of the Phoenix has some nice options but there is really no power boost in there. There is definitely nothing that adds a whole new power level like Doctrines and there is nothing that compares with the level of synergy Iron Hands can deploy. As CWE are one of the top tier factions (albeit with limited builds), this is not entirely surprising. However it looks so far like Psychic Awakening is being used to add "fluffy" options rather than to bring other factions up to the level of SMs 2.0.

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The Iron Father would still be in most lists if his cost was 250.

 

-He heals 3 wounds, easily 6

-He guarantees a unit can fire at BS2+ even if actually reduced to a low bracket

-He hands out an aura that potentially reduces damage by 33% which stacks with the 16% improvement in durability granted by Flesh is Weak

-He has an awesome ranged attack and is no slouch in combat.

 

The Iron Stone is the best relic in the game, bar none.

 

The Iron Hands Doctrine is too powerful, granting no movement penalties in combination with re rolls and the increase in AP to all heavy weapons. Leads to random stuff like Iron Hands having the best pilots in the Imperium.

 

 

-Feirros should be 250

-Iron Stone should be a once per game use item

-The Iron Hands Doctrine should only apply to heavy weapons carried by Infantry models

-Chaplain Dread Strat should be one use per game

 

And even if these changes are made they will still be the best chapter thanks to the incredible chapter tactic, psychic powers and stratagems they have.

The only difference between moving with no penalty between Ultras and IH is that IH reroll ones only on heavy weapons and get an extra AP and Ultras get to move with no penalty on: heavy weapons, all variants of bolt weapons, aggressors, flyers, repulsors etc etc. True the rest of the trait of overwatching on 5s and 6+++ is good but it's not "too powerful"

 

Could you expand more on why Ferrum worth 250 points?

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