New Mephiston/Psychic awakening p3

[Are Verlo]

BA did not get a lot of unique stratagems, but a few stand out. Such as the heroic intervention stratagem: target any BA unit (even tanks and flyers)and intervene if there are any enemy units within 6, and get to intervene 6”.

 

That is soo good

[Indefragable]

We have some mighty fine Strategems in our Codex, so I am quite grateful that (as far as we know) they have not been invalidated. I mean, we still have Killshot when Codex: SM 2.0 took away access for them.

Also....all those buffs to Sang Guard sure are tasty.

In terms of plans, I’ll finalize things when I have the book and a cup of (Irish) coffee in my hands to absorb the nuances, but as of now this changes nothing for me...in a great way.

In boxing, they sometimes refer to the “holy trinity”:
-footwork
-hitting
-blocking

You always start with footwork because the other two don’t matter if you can’t move yourself into position first. It’s also where the famous “float like a butterfly, sting like a bee” mantra of Mohammed Ali comes from.

I state this b/c the skill of a general comes down to maneuver above all else. If you want to get better at the game, spend more reps learning, re-learning, and practicing the deployment and Movement phases.

As stated above, for me these additions don’t really change anything, but rather enhance what we could already do and bring it to the next level in order to have a better chance of competing with the new status quo.

 

Edit: hopefully that doesn’t come off as arrogant...I still have plenty of road to travel myself, but I think we have quite a few tools to give us some tricks and often times it’s tactics, not tools, that win the day.

 

And I will own up to being pessimistic at first about “just” having +1A in Turn 3, but now that we’ve got a much better idea of the full picture, I think there’s some great potential for sure. This also sound hipster-ish, but I like that a lot of what we got takes some planning and cerebral exercise to get the most of...not just point and shoot  good. We are a finesse powerhouse.

[Morticon]

Hey all.  

Just a question about old and new strats.  It seems that there are a few cross-changes that have created some oddities. So, my understanding from listening to the reviews is that the stuff in the new book is all added on to the codex - this is fantastic since it's a net gain. 

However, it seems to have created one or two oddities.  

1.  We still have the "Armory of Baal" stratagem - which is different from the Marine one.  The implication here is that while marine can pay a CP for multiple relics via "Relics of the Chapter" strat - we're stuck with 2 extra max, and need to pay 3 CP for it :/  That kinda sucks.  

2.  On the flip side, we still seem to have our version of "Honour the Chapter" - the wording had very cleverly changed from allowing a unit that had charged to activate...to a unit that has enemies within 1" to activate.  This is so clearly an oversight, BUT....when coupled with the Hate litany will be phenomenal for us. 

 

...The down-side to this strat change is that our HtC strat is only for bikers and infantry - not vehicles -where as the marine one is. 


This is what ive picked up so far

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hey all.  

 

Just a question about old and new strats.  It seems that there are a few cross-changes that have created some oddities. So, my understanding from listening to the reviews is that the stuff in the new book is all added on to the codex - this is fantastic since it's a net gain. 

 

However, it seems to have created one or two oddities.  

 

1.  We still have the "Armory of Baal" stratagem - which is different from the Marine one.  The implication here is that while marine can pay a CP for multiple relics via "Relics of the Chapter" strat - we're stuck with 2 extra max, and need to pay 3 CP for it :/  That kinda sucks.  

 

2.  On the flip side, we still seem to have our version of "Honour the Chapter" - the wording had very cleverly changed from allowing a unit that had charged to activate...to a unit that has enemies within 1" to activate.  This is so clearly an oversight, BUT....when coupled with the Hate litany will be phenomenal for us. 

 

...The down-side to this strat change is that our HtC strat is only for bikers and infantry - not vehicles -where as the marine one is. 

 

 

This is what ive picked up so far

 

I think after about 2 weeks we will know for sure if this was intended or an oversight. There's several different ways to play it. I feel like the CP for relics is an oversight which will probably be FAQ'd to 1CP per relic.

[Shaezus]

BA did not get a lot of unique stratagems, but a few stand out. Such as the heroic intervention stratagem: target any BA unit (even tanks and flyers)and intervene if there are any enemy units within 6, and get to intervene 6”.

That is soo good

7 unique strats if I count right and all are very effective. Death Company with 5+++,

sanguinary guard with seriously amazing buffs to damage and survivability, besides better shooting also. Heroic intervention, better priests. it's all good!

 

Hey all.  

Just a question about old and new strats.  It seems that there are a few cross-changes that have created some oddities. So, my understanding from listening to the reviews is that the stuff in the new book is all added on to the codex - this is fantastic since it's a net gain. 

However, it seems to have created one or two oddities.  

1.  We still have the "Armory of Baal" stratagem - which is different from the Marine one.  The implication here is that while marine can pay a CP for multiple relics via "Relics of the Chapter" strat - we're stuck with 2 extra max, and need to pay 3 CP for it :/  That kinda sucks.  

2.  On the flip side, we still seem to have our version of "Honour the Chapter" - the wording had very cleverly changed from allowing a unit that had charged to activate...to a unit that has enemies within 1" to activate.  This is so clearly an oversight, BUT....when coupled with the Hate litany will be phenomenal for us. 

 

...The down-side to this strat change is that our HtC strat is only for bikers and infantry - not vehicles -where as the marine one is. 

This is what ive picked up so far

Full price smash caps too, bah!

 

There seems to be potential conflict with the grail overflowing strat. The wording of the narthecium ability is that if the priest attempts to revive a dead model, he cannot do anything else that turn. Perhaps the strat overrules this, but surely it would specify

this if so.

[Shaezus]

Can't describe how excited I am about Sanguinary guard. I usually rock 10 with fists alongside the ancient and SoS banner. One of the SG models or the ancient is warlord. With jump pack priest and chaplain alongside them, along with the new strats, special issue weapons and litanies, the combo is cheap and awesome:

 

melee:

 

+1 to hit, re rolling all misses (+2 to hit if you give quake rounds to the priest and run astorath, then use UWoF...fists hitting on 2s rerolling!!!)

 

wounding T8 on 2s. re rolling 1s

 

AP4 fists and +1A in turn 3

 

fists D 2-3

 

 

shooting:

 

reroll failed hits

 

reroll all wounds

 

possible combo with +1 to hit and wound litanies for shooting

 

charge phase:

 

3D6, reroll any dice, +1 or +2 to distance

 

survivability:

 

oppo has -1 to hit in melee

 

ignore wound rolls of 1, 2, 3

 

5+++

 

This is all just absolutely stunning. Everything they needed and everything they should be IMO

[Blindhamster]

Can't describe how excited I am about Sanguinary guard. I usually rock 10 with fists alongside the ancient and SoS banner. One of the SG models or the ancient is warlord. With jump pack priest and chaplain alongside them, along with the new strats, special issue weapons and litanies, the combo is cheap and awesome:

 

melee:

 

+1 to hit, re rolling all misses (+2 to hit if you give quake rounds to the priest and run astorath, then use UWoF...fists hitting on 2s rerolling!!!)

 

wounding T8 on 2s. re rolling 1s

 

AP4 fists and +1A in turn 3

 

fists D 2-3

 

 

shooting:

 

reroll failed hits

 

reroll all wounds

 

possible combo with +1 to hit and wound litanies for shooting

 

charge phase:

 

3D6, reroll any dice, +1 or +2 to distance

 

survivability:

 

oppo has -1 to hit in melee

 

ignore wound rolls of 1, 2, 3

 

5+++

 

This is all just absolutely stunning. Everything they needed and everything they should be IMO

I love what they've done with sanguinary guard in theory.

 

However. And its a big however.

 

I feel like they're probably a bit of a trap.

 

The base unit still isn't that good. It's okay but not great.

 

The strats are brilliant but if you use even a few of them you're quickly burning through most of the armies CP.

 

I feel like they should either have been given WS 2+ or included one of the strats as a base rule (probably the -1 to hit in melee one).

[Shaezus]

@Blindhamster I hear ya. The base unit isn't great at all, but that's SM overall really. Other factions too, they need buffs from other places to make their units shine.

 

There's so much flexibility. Strats for intercessors, DC, San guard. It's difficult to fit full units of all of these into a balanced list, so I'm hoping not to spend too much CP elsewhere. The strats are also flexible situation wise. In full buff mode, If arriving by DoA it's looking at about at least 6 CP going on the San guard in one round. Without fight again.

 

That's with all the sauce though and you can guarantee that's one big hitting drop that will be very difficult to shift. Time and play will tell if its worth it!

[Thoridon]

SG get the extra wound which helps them fit in with Primaris. Their main weakness has been the relatively low attacks for the cost of models but with both a points reduction and extra sources of attacks they should be in a much better place.

 

Before they often felt too expensive for their output. They don’t need to become overpowered but this update will make them a more valid choice alongside other units.

[The Unseen]

Bit sad there strat for -1 To-Hit only works in melee. Would've been much better and cooler for it to work on shooting.

[Gingerninja]

Okey, so from what is known so far I have a couple of questions that will help me making smal adjustments to my army.

 

1. Does Mephiston get the abillity to pick from both the Obscuration discipline and the Sanguinary discipline or just the latter?

 

2. Is there a problem giving a Character one relic and one special issue wargear, I know it´s only one relic/char? I want to be able to give my SG Ancient both the SoS (5+++) and the Icon of the Angel (charge reroll). Is it the same cost to add special issue wargear as it is to add a relic, 1CP?

 

3. When you Heroicly Intervene (HI), can you do that while in combat. For example if a unitis is in combat can i:

A: Leave combat and HI into another unit?

B: HI with models in my unit that are closer to the unit I am HI agianst than the unit I am in combat with?

 

4. Have anyone seen if we get the new wording (the SM codex one) for Honour the Chapter stratagem?

[Panzer]

Okey, so from what is known so far I have a couple of questions that will help me making smal adjustments to my army.

 

1. Does Mephiston get the abillity to pick from both the Obscuration discipline and the Sanguinary discipline or just the latter?

 

2. Is there a problem giving a Character one relic and one special issue wargear, I know it´s only one relic/char? I want to be able to give my SG Ancient both the SoS (5+++) and the Icon of the Angel (charge reroll). Is it the same cost to add special issue wargear as it is to add a relic, 1CP?

 

3. When you Heroicly Intervene (HI), can you do that while in combat. For example if a unitis is in combat can i:

A: Leave combat and HI into another unit?

B: HI with models in my unit that are closer to the unit I am HI agianst than the unit I am in combat with?

 

4. Have anyone seen if we get the new wording (the SM codex one) for Honour the Chapter stratagem?

1. Just the Sanguinary Discipline
2. Special issue wargear are basically relics too, so you can't combine them on the same character.
3. No, you can only HI when out of combat. That's a core rule and nothing changed about it.
   1. no as per above
   2. no as per above
4. Still the old wording. Likely a typo just like it's the case with Lemartes not having Black Rage and Sanguinary Priest not having Angels of Death.

[Hintzy]

Okey, so from what is known so far I have a couple of questions that will help me making smal adjustments to my army.

 

1. Does Mephiston get the abillity to pick from both the Obscuration discipline and the Sanguinary discipline or just the latter?

 

2. Is there a problem giving a Character one relic and one special issue wargear, I know it´s only one relic/char? I want to be able to give my SG Ancient both the SoS (5+++) and the Icon of the Angel (charge reroll). Is it the same cost to add special issue wargear as it is to add a relic, 1CP?

 

3. When you Heroicly Intervene (HI), can you do that while in combat. For example if a unitis is in combat can i:

A: Leave combat and HI into another unit?

B: HI with models in my unit that are closer to the unit I am HI agianst than the unit I am in combat with?

 

4. Have anyone seen if we get the new wording (the SM codex one) for Honour the Chapter stratagem?

1. Still just Sanguinary

2. The new relic stratagem is for successor chapters only, so BA is still stuck with the old stratagem for extra relics. I believe the special issue wargear wording says instead of a relic, so no doubling up as far as I can tell.

3. You CAN heroically intervene if you're already in combat, but you have to end closer to the nearest model, so it'll be challenging to actually escape an unfavorable combat. You will however reactivate Red Thirst and Shock Assault if you're in a prolonged combat.

4.We still have our old Honor the Chapter.

 

 

Heroic Intervention

After the enemy has completed all of their charge moves, any of your Characters that are within 3" of an enemy unit may perform a Heroic Intervention. Any that do so can move up to 3", so long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

 

Nothing about not already being in combat. To my knowledge this has not been changed via FAQ.

[Gingerninja]

Thanks a lot @sfPanzer and Hintzy

 

It´s just the HI part, I looked around some my self and couldn´t find anything. RAW then Hintzy interpretation is correct.

 

Regards

[Majkhel]

 

3. You CAN heroically intervene if you're already in combat, but you have to end closer to the nearest model, so it'll be challenging to actually escape an unfavorable combat. You will however reactivate Red Thirst and Shock Assault if you're in a prolonged combat.

4.We still have our old Honor the Chapter.

 

 

Heroic Intervention

After the enemy has completed all of their charge moves, any of your Characters that are within 3" of an enemy unit may perform a Heroic Intervention. Any that do so can move up to 3", so long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

 

Nothing about not already being in combat. To my knowledge this has not been changed via FAQ.

 

This can be used as a kind-of-consolidation move as well to place your character in a more favourable position (closer to charge something once current target dies) or further away from harm's way. Situational.

[Panzer]

Assuming you aren't already in base contact that is.

 

However considering it happens at the end of the opponents charge phase you could definitely use it to limit your opponents pile-in move by moving into basecontact with him before he can activate the unit!

[Indefragable]

Is there a place with all the collated leaks in a single place?

 

...like not having to scroll through 4 different posts in a forum or 3 different pages on a website etc...Just a one-stop-shop to take it all in.

[SnorriSnorrison]

You’re probably best served with YouTube, mate.

[Xenith]

Is there a place with all the collated leaks in a single place?

 

...like not having to scroll through 4 different posts in a forum or 3 different pages on a website etc...Just a one-stop-shop to take it all in.

Goonhammer was enough for me to click add to basket.

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/blood-of-baal-the-goonhammer-review-part-1-blood-angels/

[Shaezus]

Aye Goonhammer is really good. Part 1 is all the BA stuff and part 2 about the generic new units, Phobos etc, so it lists all the litanies

[Indefragable]

So something that is disturbing me is the mention of things not stacking. Specifically, that the +1 to Charges from Red Thirst does not stack with the +2 to charges Litany (Canticle of Hate, I believe?) and that the AP-1 from Assault Doctrine does not stack with other forms of AP.

 

A.

So....does that mean that AP-1 in Assault Doctrine is really only for chainswords and bolt pistols? That this does not get you AP-4 Power Swords, etc....?

 

B.

...or does it mean that Assault Doctrine gets you an additional AP-1 to melee weapons, but you can not pair it with a Litany or Psychic power or such that also lets you add 1 to your AP? So the example Power Sword can be AP-4 from Either <Assault Doctrine> or <Other>, but not both for a total of AP-5?

 

It has to be B, since otherwise what the :cuss is the point of Devastator Doctrine at all? Nearly every Heavy weapon under the sun has at least AP-1...so logically it has to stack.

 

Codex: Space Marines 2.0 says:

Hidden Content

"Models in this unit gain a bonus dependin on which combat doctrine is active for your amry (see opposite). If you have a Battle-forged army, units only benefit form this bonus if every unit from your army has this ability (excluding <SERVITOR> and UNALIGNED units). Unless specified otherwise, this bonus is not cumulative with any other rules that improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of a weapon (e.g. The Storm of Fire Warlord Trait)."

 

 

So the way I am understanding it is that you can only ever have a single <Bonus> for something at a time. Just like you can only take one type of save (armor OR invuln, not both) and can only roll one type of Feel No Pain. Combat Doctrines are thus a free-standing default <Bonus> should their conditions (basically Turn #) be met and other <Bonus> effects like Litanies, Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, etc... can override, but not stack for the exact same ability.

 

However, where I have concern and seek clarity is with aspects that are more innate <Ability> to a given unit, or unit within a certain Faction. Such as Chapter Tactics, Shock Assault, etc... Logically, these <Ability> effects have to be separate from <Bonus> effects, otherwise every Astartes unit in the game would be capped at +1A due to Shock Assault, etc... And clearly there is precedent for that not being the case (the most egregious example being the Eldar ability to stack ridiculous #'s of -1 To Hit <Bonus>).

 

TL;DR: I think there is a case to be made either way whether or not the +1 Charge from Red Thirst stacks with +2 Charge from Canticle of Hate and whether or not Flesh Tearers add 2 to their melee/pistol AP during Assault Doctrine.  It depends on whether or not the <Ability> vs <Bonus> way of thinking applies or not.

[Blindhamster]

I emailed the following to GW today

 

- Sanguinary Priest doesn’t have Angels of Death, but the section before data sheets specifically says everything has it. If Sanguinary priests do not have it, wouldn’t that break the combat doctrines rule?

- Lemartes seems to be missing the black rage rule but he has always had it and its a core part of the character from a lore perspective, is this intentional?

- Blood Angels seem to lack the ability to take more relics at 1CP each that codex marines get and are stuck with an older version of the stratagem, quite a few of the stratagems have had their wording changed (sometimes making them more powerful, other times making them less so), it would be good to get all the same named ones wording updated to be aligned if possible.

- Should the Flesh Tearers alternative “chapter tactic” stack with Assault Doctrine? It doesn’t say it does, but is kind of sad if it doesn’t.

- Dante didn’t seem to get an update – shouldn’t his reroll wording change to follow the updated wording used for everything else? (not just misses)

- Artificer Armour special issue wargear provides a 5+ invulnerable – shouldn’t Mephiston therefore come with a 5+ invulnerable too these days.

 

 

I'd suggest others do too.

[Neuralshock]

Played a beta test against a friend's ad mech in an ITC game. I'll post more about it tomorrow but some key points.

 

Canticle is hate is a huge boon, litanies in general.

 

2x warlords with 2x 4 damage thunder hammers bring the pain

 

New red thirst is a MASSIVE QoL improvement.

 

Enjoy having 0 cp by t1/1.5

[Morticon]

I emailed the following to GW today

 

- Sanguinary Priest doesn’t have Angels of Death, but the section before data sheets specifically says everything has it. If Sanguinary priests do not have it, wouldn’t that break the combat doctrines rule?

- Lemartes seems to be missing the black rage rule but he has always had it and its a core part of the character from a lore perspective, is this intentional?

- Blood Angels seem to lack the ability to take more relics at 1CP each that codex marines get and are stuck with an older version of the stratagem, quite a few of the stratagems have had their wording changed (sometimes making them more powerful, other times making them less so), it would be good to get all the same named ones wording updated to be aligned if possible.

- Should the Flesh Tearers alternative “chapter tactic” stack with Assault Doctrine? It doesn’t say it does, but is kind of sad if it doesn’t.

- Dante didn’t seem to get an update – shouldn’t his reroll wording change to follow the updated wording used for everything else? (not just misses)

- Artificer Armour special issue wargear provides a 5+ invulnerable – shouldn’t Mephiston therefore come with a 5+ invulnerable too these days.

 

 

I'd suggest others do too.

 

 

email addy? 

[The Unseen]

Indefragable, the AP from Flesh Tearers stacking currently doesn't work with assault doctrine, but will probably be FaQed, but it won't stack with the litany of -4 AP on a 6. The issue is that the assault doctrine -1 AP doesn't change the weapon stats, but is a bonus AP mod, and for some reason GW didn't want you to be able to stack the -4 AP litany with flesh tearers for -5 AP. Not that it really matters. It feels like it not stacking with assault doctrine wasn't really intended, but it could go either way.