New Mephiston/Psychic awakening p3

[Indefragable]

I emailed the following to GW today

 

- Sanguinary Priest doesn’t have Angels of Death, but the section before data sheets specifically says everything has it. If Sanguinary priests do not have it, wouldn’t that break the combat doctrines rule?

- Lemartes seems to be missing the black rage rule but he has always had it and its a core part of the character from a lore perspective, is this intentional?

- Blood Angels seem to lack the ability to take more relics at 1CP each that codex marines get and are stuck with an older version of the stratagem, quite a few of the stratagems have had their wording changed (sometimes making them more powerful, other times making them less so), it would be good to get all the same named ones wording updated to be aligned if possible.

- Should the Flesh Tearers alternative “chapter tactic” stack with Assault Doctrine? It doesn’t say it does, but is kind of sad if it doesn’t.

- Dante didn’t seem to get an update – shouldn’t his reroll wording change to follow the updated wording used for everything else? (not just misses)

- Artificer Armour special issue wargear provides a 5+ invulnerable – shouldn’t Mephiston therefore come with a 5+ invulnerable too these days.

 

 

I'd suggest others do too.

Great stuff! 

 

was thinking we should start compiling questions. 

 

In addition: 

 

-Character upgrades (Techmarine, Champion, et al...)

—NOTE: does anyone know if we got the newly worded Company Champion?

-What effects stack? Canticle of Hate + Red Thirst? 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Indefragable

[Morticon]

 

I emailed the following to GW today

 

- Sanguinary Priest doesn’t have Angels of Death, but the section before data sheets specifically says everything has it. If Sanguinary priests do not have it, wouldn’t that break the combat doctrines rule?

- Lemartes seems to be missing the black rage rule but he has always had it and its a core part of the character from a lore perspective, is this intentional?

- Blood Angels seem to lack the ability to take more relics at 1CP each that codex marines get and are stuck with an older version of the stratagem, quite a few of the stratagems have had their wording changed (sometimes making them more powerful, other times making them less so), it would be good to get all the same named ones wording updated to be aligned if possible.

- Should the Flesh Tearers alternative “chapter tactic” stack with Assault Doctrine? It doesn’t say it does, but is kind of sad if it doesn’t.

- Dante didn’t seem to get an update – shouldn’t his reroll wording change to follow the updated wording used for everything else? (not just misses)

- Artificer Armour special issue wargear provides a 5+ invulnerable – shouldn’t Mephiston therefore come with a 5+ invulnerable too these days.

 

 

I'd suggest others do too.

Great stuff! 

 

was thinking we should start compiling questions. 

 

In addition: 

 

-Character upgrades (Techmarine, Champion, et al...)

—NOTE: does anyone know if we got the newly worded Company Champion?

-What effects stack? Canticle of Hate + Red Thirst? 

 

Re: Stacking - Is it worth asking the question if it's clear? (Legit question). 

 

[Blindhamster]

40kFAQ@gwplc.com

 

 

I asked about the character upgrades separately in a faith and fury section of the email lol

[Panzer]

I'll also mention the state of DC Intercessors and why I have a problem with it in my mail, but otherwise I think you got everything so I'm just going to copy your list. :P

Definitely going to add the character upgrades too though. I really want to properly play my successor as successor with their own chapter master and everything instead of still being counts-as parent chapter.

[Blindhamster]

I'll also mention the state of DC Intercessors and why I have a problem with it in my mail, but otherwise I think you got everything so I'm just going to copy your list. :P

Definitely going to add the character upgrades too though. I really want to properly play my successor as successor with their own chapter master and everything instead of still being counts-as parent chapter.

Yeah for character upgrades I did say I kinda saw why BA couldn't use them. But felt successors missed out a bit unfairly as a result.

 

 

Someone should mention death visions or sanguinius - that should really be opened to primaris characters now, seeing as we have DC intercessors

[Majkhel]

Did my part.

[Remtek]

Is there any love for Baal Preds, Furioso dreads or assualt marines in P3/CA? I have not been able to deepdive in the new stuff yet. Saw the sanguinary guard changes, they look very strong now :)

[Blindhamster]

Is there any love for Baal Preds, Furioso dreads or assualt marines in P3/CA? I have not been able to deepdive in the new stuff yet. Saw the sanguinary guard changes, they look very strong now :)

Assault marines benefit from all the attack boosts. And arguably the bonus to charge etc too. Bit the squad itself is unchanged

[Charlo]

I think Furioso got a points drop, and we got access to the half damage strat for Dreads.

 

Otherwise not a lot for our vehicles.

[RedemptionNL]

Well all Vehicles now get Red Thirst for extra smashiness (like the Invictor which didn't get it before), with the new +1 to Advance and Charge rolls included.

 

And there's a new stratagem for Vehicles that let you ignore the -1 to hit from moving and firing Heavy weapons.

[Wassa]

It doesn't say they don't stack... it just doesn't say it does stack.

 

 

Savage Echoes specifically states that that +1Attack stacks which Shock Assaults +1Attack.

The Litany says the +2 charge specifically states that it does not stack with other charge modifiers.

Both Flesh Tears chapter tactic and Assault Doctrine specify that the weapons AP are improved by -1. Doesn't mention stacking at all.

 

 

I'd say it does stack. It's only on a 6 and they wouldn't write a rule that nullifies their chapter tactic on the special assault phase.

I'm pretty sure that other factions to-hit modifiers, cover/psychic modifiers that improve saves don't specifically mention stacking and they're allowed.

[RedemptionNL]

It doesn't say they don't stack... it just doesn't say it does stack.

 

 

Savage Echoes specifically states that that +1Attack stacks which Shock Assaults +1Attack.

The Litany says the +2 charge specifically states that it does not stack with other charge modifiers.

Both Flesh Tears chapter tactic and Assault Doctrine specify that the weapons AP are improved by -1. Doesn't mention stacking at all.

 

 

I'd say it does stack. It's only on a 6 and they wouldn't write a rule that nullifies their chapter tactic on the special assault phase.

I'm pretty sure that other factions to-hit modifiers, cover/psychic modifiers that improve saves don't specifically mention stacking and they're allowed.

The Combat Doctrines rules specifically says:

 

"Unless specified otherwise, this bonus is not cumulative with any other rules that improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of a weapon (e.g. the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait)."

[BluejayJunior]

 

It doesn't say they don't stack... it just doesn't say it does stack.

 

 

Savage Echoes specifically states that that +1Attack stacks which Shock Assaults +1Attack.

The Litany says the +2 charge specifically states that it does not stack with other charge modifiers.

Both Flesh Tears chapter tactic and Assault Doctrine specify that the weapons AP are improved by -1. Doesn't mention stacking at all.

 

 

I'd say it does stack. It's only on a 6 and they wouldn't write a rule that nullifies their chapter tactic on the special assault phase.

I'm pretty sure that other factions to-hit modifiers, cover/psychic modifiers that improve saves don't specifically mention stacking and they're allowed.

The Combat Doctrines rules specifically says:

 

"Unless specified otherwise, this bonus is not cumulative with any other rules that improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of a weapon (e.g. the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait)."

 

I would guess that gets fixed with the first FAQ. RAW you are definitely correct, but I doubt that was supposed to be the intent of it. Otherwise, it is useless once you hit turn 3. 

[MeltaRange]

Is there any love for Baal Preds, Furioso dreads or assualt marines in P3/CA? I have not been able to deepdive in the new stuff yet. Saw the sanguinary guard changes, they look very strong now

 

The Baal Pred's Flamestorm cannon is 12", but man, what a missed opportunity to make this vehicle really good here.  Lucifer Pattern Engines had such potential.  Oh well.  

[Indefragable]

Did my part.

 

I'm doing my part!

 

It doesn't say they don't stack... it just doesn't say it does stack.

 

 

Savage Echoes specifically states that that +1Attack stacks which Shock Assaults +1Attack.

The Litany says the +2 charge specifically states that it does not stack with other charge modifiers.

Both Flesh Tears chapter tactic and Assault Doctrine specify that the weapons AP are improved by -1. Doesn't mention stacking at all.

 

 

I'd say it does stack. It's only on a 6 and they wouldn't write a rule that nullifies their chapter tactic on the special assault phase.

I'm pretty sure that other factions to-hit modifiers, cover/psychic modifiers that improve saves don't specifically mention stacking and they're allowed.

 

 

 

It doesn't say they don't stack... it just doesn't say it does stack.

 

 

Savage Echoes specifically states that that +1Attack stacks which Shock Assaults +1Attack.

The Litany says the +2 charge specifically states that it does not stack with other charge modifiers.

Both Flesh Tears chapter tactic and Assault Doctrine specify that the weapons AP are improved by -1. Doesn't mention stacking at all.

 

 

I'd say it does stack. It's only on a 6 and they wouldn't write a rule that nullifies their chapter tactic on the special assault phase.

I'm pretty sure that other factions to-hit modifiers, cover/psychic modifiers that improve saves don't specifically mention stacking and they're allowed.

The Combat Doctrines rules specifically says:

 

"Unless specified otherwise, this bonus is not cumulative with any other rules that improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of a weapon (e.g. the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait)."

 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't say they don't stack... it just doesn't say it does stack.

 

 

Savage Echoes specifically states that that +1Attack stacks which Shock Assaults +1Attack.

The Litany says the +2 charge specifically states that it does not stack with other charge modifiers.

Both Flesh Tears chapter tactic and Assault Doctrine specify that the weapons AP are improved by -1. Doesn't mention stacking at all.

 

 

I'd say it does stack. It's only on a 6 and they wouldn't write a rule that nullifies their chapter tactic on the special assault phase.

I'm pretty sure that other factions to-hit modifiers, cover/psychic modifiers that improve saves don't specifically mention stacking and they're allowed.

The Combat Doctrines rules specifically says:

 

"Unless specified otherwise, this bonus is not cumulative with any other rules that improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of a weapon (e.g. the Storm of Fire Warlord Trait)."

 

I would guess that gets fixed with the first FAQ. RAW you are definitely correct, but I doubt that was supposed to be the intent of it. Otherwise, it is useless once you hit turn 3. 

 

 

I think it's worth all of us asking for clarification on what specific items stack and/or if there's any (logical interpretable) system for knowing when things do and do not stack.

 

The Fleshtearers one definitely feels like it it should stack, otherwise it just seems pointless.

 

I am on the fence with whether Canticle of Hate (+2 to charges) stacks with upgraded Red Thirst (+1 to charges). The wording says it does not stack with anything else, but a few posts back I pointed out how I can see if across the board in the game, there was a difference between "base" effects and "bonus" effects. The difference being that I can see Red Thirst + Canticle of Hate stacking as a designed intent, but Quickening + Canticle of Hate not stacking, since they are both "bonus" effects. +3 to charges from Red Thirst + Canticle =

yea baby!"....+6 to charges from Red Thirst + Canticle + Quickening seems like a bit much. To me, RAI is Red Thirst stacks with one other effect.

 

Anyways, I'll ask for specific clarification on it.

 

Is there any love for Baal Preds, Furioso dreads or assualt marines in P3/CA? I have not been able to deepdive in the new stuff yet. Saw the sanguinary guard changes, they look very strong now

 

The Baal Pred's Flamestorm cannon is 12", but man, what a missed opportunity to make this vehicle really good here.  Lucifer Pattern Engines had such potential.  Oh well.  

 

 

They've neglected to do something about it for so long now-- that, like Dante for us and Grey Knights as a more extreme example--that the absence of anything is telling. Either they want to lessen its abilities or they want us to buy a new book down the road that "fixes" it.

[MeltaRange]

 

 

Is there any love for Baal Preds, Furioso dreads or assualt marines in P3/CA? I have not been able to deepdive in the new stuff yet. Saw the sanguinary guard changes, they look very strong now

 

The Baal Pred's Flamestorm cannon is 12", but man, what a missed opportunity to make this vehicle really good here.  Lucifer Pattern Engines had such potential.  Oh well.  

 

 

They've neglected to do something about it for so long now-- that, like Dante for us and Grey Knights as a more extreme example--that the absence of anything is telling. Either they want to lessen its abilities or they want us to buy a new book down the road that "fixes" it.

 

 

They did however, manage to cram the model down our throats in our Christmas Battleforce box.  (alongside Ol' Faithful, the Terminator Captain... )

[Neuralshock]

So I had a chance to beta test some of the changes the other day and boy howdy, we should be excited!

 

2k pts admech vs BA

 

took a sizable chunk of death company and sanguinary guard, wanted to beta test incursors too, proxied a sicaran punisher.

 

friend took a decent gunline with plenty of robits

 

map was longboard and mission was crucible of champions ITC, I was supposed to go first.

 

broad strokes of my list were: 2x battalion with 1x Vanguard

2x DC WL captains (2 CP) (1CP for extra warlord) and gave the 2nd one gift of foresight and a MC T-hammer

Meph, Libby dread with sarcophagus (3cp for relics ;___; )

Limoncello with mantra of strength and canticle of HAET  (renaming to canticle of YEET might be appropriate now, more in a min)

 

 

After deploying aggressively with 3x shank scouts, incursors on a open objective and 10x chainsword DC on the line, my opponent seizes on me and I spend 2cp to advance my DC 19(!) inches into cover pre-game trying to tuck them out of LOS of his kastellans. I was only partially successful, as he could still line up shots with 2 of them. the incursors and sicaran proved to be decent distraction carnifexes as they took the brunt of dunecrawler, breacher, destroyer, and skorpius dunerider aggro. Death company only ended up losing 1 marine for their troubles, losing a scout squad along they way as well. My opponent charged the death company with 2 squads of vanguard, which was akin to having them run straight into a woodchipper and netted me 2 kills. end of turn lost 3 units, Kill one hold 1, first strike. My turn.

 

On my t1 I jump the DC over terrain to look menacingly at some rangers and moved Slammy, Lemon, Libby, and Mephy into the middle of the board and pressed the remaining scouts to the side of the ruins to keep the forward screen up, cast wings on the libby dread to plop him on top of the center objective. shooting was no result except for putting a wound onto the destroyer blob. charged the rangers and rolled a 9 with the +1. I spread out to touch a group of destroyers and planned to maybe wrap them (breachers actually have a good melee weapon fyi) I actually tried to kill the rangers but to my opponents credit rolled really well with his saves and I was thankful he didn't fail morale. wrapped the rangers and gave the destroyers the bad touch. no kill but held more and scored recon.

 

opponents t2 he removed a squad of intercessors with a skorpius and destroyers and charged his breachers, a data smith, a TPD, and Kastellan robits into the remaining DC. let me tell you that Transhuman Physiology is the most clutch strategem in the game as it reduced so much hurt coming towards these dudes that I only lost 2 and wiped the rangers on the next swing. Lynch pin strat IMO.

 

My t2 and it was bidniss time. I positioned up lemartes and smashcap in charge range of some breachers flew up the librarian dread in range of his WL, quickened him and another squad of breachers, Wings'd up mephiston and brought down my other smash cap, SG, and power weapon squad of DC. I spent a reroll on the canticle of hate, had 3 cp left. Double tapped a destroyer with OC plasma pistols from the SG (rerolls still good) and went about the good bidness of smashing robots. I nearly failed the 3d6 charge with the SG on the other flank and spent my last cp to not look like a doofus. Smash cap, Lemartes, and the DC crew went IN on the breachers on the other flank. Smash cap whackamoled them (lemartes's updated reroll all hits came in handy) and then both the DC and Lemartes were free to make a TWELVE INCH pile in and consolidate into the next squad of destroyers and TPD, wrapping the latter. 

 

We called it after that considering this was just a test of the new power of the BA and I had already punted or wrapped the majority of his gunline. Short of the long?? WOW, we shine best in CQC and the rules have made it so much easier to do what we do. Essentially ensuring that we get the charge off is a massive help to push the limit on the assault phase. Canticle of Hate gives us a free movement phase in between all the ripping and tearings. 

 

Concerns: If you thought we were CP hungry before, hold onto your butts. The new strats and pregame spending equates the BA to a F1 racer that has just enough gas to get to the finish. Strat selection and usage is key, but that makes us all the more susceptible to Vects, RG, and Caladius's. Next is movement movement movement, make sure to brush up your deployment and movement game as lining up the charge, pile in, and wrap is the absolute key to success. Since we didn't get the blank check of "no falling back" that chaos did, manipulating your wraps and tags are crucial

 

Overall, super happy. 

[Emissary]

What's a lemonchello. I know the drink but don't get where it applies in a BA army.

[Neuralshock]

What's a lemonchello. I know the drink but don't get where it applies in a BA army.

It's what I call lemartes

[Charlo]

Where did the 12" consolidation come from?

[Neuralshock]

Where did the 12" consolidation come from?

12" in total, with 6 inch pile in and consolidates

[Indefragable]

Canticle of Yeet.

 

Love it.

 

Out of curiosity, did you play charges as +1 from Red Thirst and +2 from Canticle of Yeet? Or simply just Canticle of Yeet overrides Red Thirst for grand total bonus of +2?

[Charlo]

Canticle of Yeet.

 

Love it.

 

Out of curiosity, did you play charges as +1 from Red Thirst and +2 from Canticle of Yeet? Or simply just Canticle of Yeet overrides Red Thirst for grand total bonus of +2?

 

The rules are clear it's an override and only +2 from the canticle!

[Pathstrider]

I do kinda wonder what the page count difference between reprinting vanguard units vs reprinting our unique units and rolling us into codex space marines would have been.

 

The latter would avoid some of these inconsistencies. Though I expect we will lose some legacy stratagems (kill shot?) when the FAQ comes out - in the same way Vigilus Defiant lost stuff when the marine FAQ came out.

[BluejayJunior]

I do kinda wonder what the page count difference between reprinting vanguard units vs reprinting our unique units and rolling us into codex space marines would have been.

 

The latter would avoid some of these inconsistencies. Though I expect we will lose some legacy stratagems (kill shot?) when the FAQ comes out - in the same way Vigilus Defiant lost stuff when the marine FAQ came out.

Vigilus stuff was changed because the stratagems became redundant with their reprinting and changes in the new space marine codex. That didn't happen with the new stratagems in Blood of Baal. I doubt they will just straight up errata stuff to say the Blood Angels codex can no longer use X stratagems.