Psychic Awakening 2 rumours

[DranuTemplar]

You CAN disembark and charge, that's in the default rules. The problem - if there is one - is to get close enough to actually reliably pull off the charge.

you can disembark and charge after the lrc moves?

[jaxom]

 

I guess the intent from the rules designers was for BT to be a heavily mechanized force. LRCs for the firstborn, and Repulsors and Impulsors for the Primaris, and everybody jumps out on turn 3. I mean, GW has to sell tanks. Are the days of full sized Crusader squads running full out across the board over and done? I mean, is herding the enemy with heavy tanks, and then disembarking to rip and tear, all that bad?

 

Footslogging hasn't been an option since 6th edition, cause marines are easy to kill - blast templates wiped whole 20-man squads in 6th and 7th edition, high volume of fire and morale phase do the same in 8th. Our old codex said that BT primary tactics are mechanised and drop pod assaults. Not sure where all this "footslogging horde" thing came from, TBH, it never was a good tactic and it still isn't. Armored assault with a couple of stationary shooting units worked well for years now.

 

 

footslogging horde cc was the way to play in the "4th edition golden age". you took two 20-man squads with chaplains and servitors (24 men total for each squad) and the servitors boosted the mobility and made these squads hit the enemy on turn 2. with NOBODY using transports that edition, it meant turn 2 everything got charged. it was really good-but it was a META thing, not a BT thing, which, however, had a correlation with BT's best days. this means that many old BT players confuse "the meta of an edition" with "BT fluff".

 

Also, the earliest rules for BT had them fall forward if they failed a morale test after the shooting phase. A crusader squad would lose a few neophytes and it could end up 2D6" closer to the enemy.

 

 

The other major question is how will all of this work with the Imperial Fists. Will we still have access to their special issue wargear? How about the warlord traits, the strats? I'm fairly confident we won't be able to have both super doctrines but the rest of it is still up in the air for now. While I don't think the traits and relics will be as great when compared to our own, if we are still able to use the stratagems then we will have a lot of options available to us. Curious to see what happens.

 

That said I think a combination of on foot and mechanized will work well. The challenge will be the timing of litanies since targeted ones require the unit to be on the field while the aura ones just require smart positioning and planning.

 

Still not sure about how they have litanies work though. Yes the start of round is nice and does kind of help balance them since otherwise your opponent has zero ways to stop them, but at the same time it means chaplains in a transport or deepstrike are even less useful than librarians. Just glad I have a jump pack chaplain.

 

To the first point, I highly doubt it; the BT aren't in the IF supplement and I would be shocked if there were not some wording in PA2 to cancel out the generalized "If you're an IF successor you can get Legacy of Dorn, etc." The recent space marine rules have been decent about reflecting the lore and the BT do not operate like any orthodox IF successor chapter.

 

The the second point, that is part of why I think the BT are an Advanced Army. A player needs to have a three turn plan for transitioning through the doctrines, getting characters into position and/or disembarked at the appropriate time, and not just berserking forward like a 3.5 Khorne horde (in or out of rhinos).

[Ciler]

you can disembark and charge after the lrc moves?

No, and that's the issue. Currently, you can disembark and charge BEFORE the LRC move and use the stratagem - but with the cavehat mentioned earlier of needing to have the LRC very close to the enemy for a full turn beforehand. Being able to disembark after the LRC has moved would allow for a much longer reach and safety.

[Acebaur]

You CAN disembark and charge, that's in the default rules. The problem - if there is one - is to get close enough to actually reliably pull off the charge.

 

Well we have nearly a 56% chance to pull off a 9+ inch charge. That's on average an 18 inch threat range which is pretty good IMO. 

[teu-teu]

At the moment there is no real rule what can used to make a systematic list around of it. Its just that our already concepts are being a bit better then before.

 

A Sword Relic - maybe an option for a charakter but not for a list - Just change the performance of this character ( not even sure if its better than any other relic - like Teeth of Terra)

LRC Stratagem - maybe 2-3 LRC with fully packed Crusader squads and two chaplains with Jump packs who move with the LRC and one cast +1 Attack (new Lithany) and the other is Caticle of hate. Its fluffy but not very strong.

New WL-Trait - is a nice fluffy gimmik but nothing more. It could be very strong but you cant build a list beyond that.

New ruleset of Helbrecht - same as above (the relic), it makes him better but doesnt change how to play him/ new option.

It doesn't work for the new lithanie because you have to "cast" it at the begining of the players turns and your unit it still in the LRC -_-

We will see which kind of litanies work as aura

[Ciler]

Well we have nearly a 56% chance to pull off a 9+ inch charge. That's on average an 18 inch threat range which is pretty good IMO.

Assuming the opponent stands his ground (which if he does means he's capable of taking the charge) ; if he backs off then the chance of a successful charge falls down dramatically.

 

Mind that i'm not saying the strat is bad, merely that it's highly situational and hard to build a reliable strategy on. If there's another strat in there to disembark after moving or one like the WS got to move advance and charge, then things get more reliable.

[Acebaur]

 

Well we have nearly a 56% chance to pull off a 9+ inch charge. That's on average an 18 inch threat range which is pretty good IMO.

Assuming the opponent stands his ground (which if he does means he's capable of taking the charge) ; if he backs off then the chance of a successful charge falls down dramatically.

 

Mind that i'm not saying the strat is bad, merely that it's highly situational and hard to build a reliable strategy on. If there's another strat in there to disembark after moving or one like the WS got to move advance and charge, then things get more reliable.

 

 

If you roll your LRC right up in their grill, unless it's a vehicle or a unit with fly most units are going to have a hard time going that far away on foot. 

[Godspear]

So, this thread's been everywhere! I dig the new rules.  Allow me to add my two cents to the convo, because I'd love to get some feedback on my rationale.  I'm not as disappointed as some, everything seems really fluffy, and I think it would integrate well into my blended Primaris/Old marine crusade.  So, here's my thinking, with no small modicum of zeal.    

 

First, Sete, you were spot on and I hate that your source came through.  I was seriously hoping for some primarisized Grimaldus action, or at the very least a primaris crusader squad or primaris upgrade sprue.  I'm not over the moon with the new rules, but I don't think they're as bad as some have previously made out.  There's no reason these rules cannot work with Primaris crusades, even though the focus on old marines is clear.  Righteous Zeal is great for assault oriented lists, and when combined with Knights of Sigismund and the Shock and Awe strat, should allow for some pretty meaty and classically fluffy LRC charges. 

 

Sure, the LRC has to wait around to disembark, but any unit disembarking from said Land Raider can still move, advance, and charge, so there's a lot of space there to work with, and a good deal of range on those assault cannons and hurricane bolters.  You don't have to get right up on your opponent with the tank to use it effectively and still get the charge, is my point.  You're rerolling charges, you have FNP to mortal wounds on a 5+, you're denying overwatch while subtracting from your opponent's hit roll, AND 6s autowound on the charge.  It's basically 4th ed rending.  Add a chaplain with Fires, and you get an additional attack for every model.  Not to mention, we haven't seen the other 5 litanies exclusive to our chapter or any other stratagems.  There may be some really nice combos in there.

 

Anyone that thinks these rules can't be played with Primaris Crusades is probably over focused on the Shock and Awe stratagem, because every other rule can be applied to Primaris as easily as standard marines.  The LRC was ours to begin with, so the fact that they previewed a LRC strat makes a lot of sense in marketing the new rules.  That doesn't mean Primaris marines are going to be ignored entirely.  I'm sure there will be Primaris focused stratagems when the book releases.  There is absolutely no reason to put the only moderately assault focused Primaris troop choice in a transport.  Incursors will still benefit from Righteous Zeal and Knights of Sigismund, both of which are nicely assault oriented rules.

 

Also, why not build around detachments of PA2 BT Battalions and vanguard, with IF supplement BT spearhead detachments in the same army list?  I agree you shouldn't expect to receive both rule sets in the same detachment, but there's nothing to stop you from fielding both rule sets in the same army.

[Sete]

I would not call it my source, i was just sharing from other forum. Credit is not mine.

 

And its not over till its over.

Community in the FB, bar some exceptions, did show disapointment towards the lack of BT goodies, rules not withstanding. Lets see how it pans out.

 

Like you said, shock and awe is a OGmarines focused strat, im sure once we have the full rulebook, Primaris strats will appear. Crusades for new neophytes and old swordbrothers alike need to be supported.

 

I did like the few bits shown, especially the sword relic.

Shame the doctrine is on charge, but relics WT and strats will make a difference.

 

In a couple days reviews should hit. Until then lets all sit tight.

[Medjugorje]

 

You CAN disembark and charge, that's in the default rules. The problem - if there is one - is to get close enough to actually reliably pull off the charge.

 

Well we have nearly a 56% chance to pull off a 9+ inch charge. That's on average an 18 inch threat range which is pretty good IMO. 

 

and its possible with "canticle of hate" and a rumored WL-Trait to get +3 on the charge.

 

 

 

 

At the moment there is no real rule what can used to make a systematic list around of it. Its just that our already concepts are being a bit better then before.

 

A Sword Relic - maybe an option for a charakter but not for a list - Just change the performance of this character ( not even sure if its better than any other relic - like Teeth of Terra)

LRC Stratagem - maybe 2-3 LRC with fully packed Crusader squads and two chaplains with Jump packs who move with the LRC and one cast +1 Attack (new Lithany) and the other is Caticle of hate. Its fluffy but not very strong.

New WL-Trait - is a nice fluffy gimmik but nothing more. It could be very strong but you cant build a list beyond that.

New ruleset of Helbrecht - same as above (the relic), it makes him better but doesnt change how to play him/ new option.

It doesn't work for the new lithanie because you have to "cast" it at the begining of the players turns and your unit it still in the LRC 

We will see which kind of litanies work as aura

 

maybe you can cast this lithany and just in your phase you can choose one unit. (in the rule text - there is nothing which committed you to choose a unit right now...

 

Is that possible?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well we have nearly a 56% chance to pull off a 9+ inch charge. That's on average an 18 inch threat range which is pretty good IMO.

Assuming the opponent stands his ground (which if he does means he's capable of taking the charge) ; if he backs off then the chance of a successful charge falls down dramatically.

 

Mind that i'm not saying the strat is bad, merely that it's highly situational and hard to build a reliable strategy on. If there's another strat in there to disembark after moving or one like the WS got to move advance and charge, then things get more reliable.

 

thats the main point right now.  At the moment there are a few new rules out there but nothing which can used to build a list around. We have to wait until new rules are leaked or are completly released.

 

 

 

 

Sure, the LRC has to wait around to disembark, but any unit disembarking from said Land Raider can still move, advance, and charge, so there's a lot of space there to work with, and a good deal of range on those assault cannons and hurricane bolters.  You don't have to get right up on your opponent with the tank to use it effectively and still get the charge, is my point.  

 

Anyone that thinks these rules can't be played with Primaris Crusades is probably over focused on the Shock and Awe stratagem, because every other rule can be applied to Primaris as easily as standard marines.  The LRC was ours to begin with, 

 

Also, why not build around detachments of PA2 BT Battalions and vanguard, with IF supplement BT spearhead detachments in the same army list?  I agree you shouldn't expect to receive both rule sets in the same detachment, but there's nothing to stop you from fielding both rule sets in the same army.

3 things here:

 

first one is that we cannot advance and charge (we are not the White Scars)

 

secound thing - I think you are correct in Primaris. Knights of Sigismund are better for Units with less Strength and more attacks. So Intercessor Veterans seems very good in this case.

 

IF + BT and then you loose both of your superdoctrines.

[Godspear]

 

3 things here:

 

first one is that we cannot advance and charge (we are not the White Scars)

 

secound thing - I think you are correct in Primaris. Knights of Sigismund are better for Units with less Strength and more attacks. So Intercessor Veterans seems very good in this case.

 

IF + BT and then you loose both of your superdoctrines.

 

 

1) I wasn't saying we could do all three in the same round.  I simply meant we could do all the things we would be able to do in a given movement phase, following the disembark.  My point remains the same.

 

2)  Totally agree.

 

3)  Fair point.  I don't play soup, typically, so this hasn't ever been a thing I've had to deal with, and I for one am glad to finally get new rules.  I was simply looking for a solution for people that didn't really like what they saw in the preview.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

What would be cool is if we could choose between playing BT rules or IF Successor rules. That could perhaps give you a lot of flexibility within the same list. I can also see days when I may fancy being more stationary and shooting with the IF bonuses (Like against Nids) and days when I want to have a good punch up. 

[DranuTemplar]

 

you can disembark and charge after the lrc moves?

No, and that's the issue. Currently, you can disembark and charge BEFORE the LRC move and use the stratagem - but with the cavehat mentioned earlier of needing to have the LRC very close to the enemy for a full turn beforehand. Being able to disembark after the LRC has moved would allow for a much longer reach and safety.

 

Thats the rumor we were talking about.  There is a rumor that there will be a strat that allows the LRC to move, then disembark, then still charge.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

you can disembark and charge after the lrc moves?

No, and that's the issue. Currently, you can disembark and charge BEFORE the LRC move and use the stratagem - but with the cavehat mentioned earlier of needing to have the LRC very close to the enemy for a full turn beforehand. Being able to disembark after the LRC has moved would allow for a much longer reach and safety.

 

Thats the rumor we were talking about.  There is a rumor that there will be a strat that allows the LRC to move, then disembark, then still charge.

 

 

If that comes true, I will play my current one, as well as immediately rip the lascannons off my other one and build that LRC upgrade sprue I bought and never used.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

you can disembark and charge after the lrc moves?

No, and that's the issue. Currently, you can disembark and charge BEFORE the LRC move and use the stratagem - but with the cavehat mentioned earlier of needing to have the LRC very close to the enemy for a full turn beforehand. Being able to disembark after the LRC has moved would allow for a much longer reach and safety.

 

Thats the rumor we were talking about.  There is a rumor that there will be a strat that allows the LRC to move, then disembark, then still charge.

 

I searched after this rumor. Cannot find it anymore. I think its not true (sadly)

[NeuronFlux]

Someone explain to me how "fires of devotion" can ever be used for a heroic intervention if it goes away at the end of the turn?

 

I thought you had to get charged to heroically intervene?

I don't think anybody answered you, my apologies if somebody did.

 

From the main rulebook:

 

After the enemy has completed all of their charge moves, any

of your Characters that are within 3" of an enemy unit may

perform a Heroic Intervention. Any that do so can move up to 3",

so long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

You do not have to be charged to heroically intervene - it simply happens at the end of the opponent's charge phase (and nobody is allowed to "skip" any phases).

 

Also of note, you don't need to move your characters into melee range, you can use this to eek out some extra movement (take objectives?) - you just have to end up closer to the closest model.

[tvih]

As for the LRC charge after disembark stratagem rumour, I'm pretty sure if that was to exist it would've been "Shock and Awe" instead of what that turned out to be. I find it quite unlikely that there'd be two stratagems related to charging from LRCs. At which point they could stack, which admittedly would make for a (CP-)costly charge.

[Marshal Laeroth]

As for the LRC charge after disembark rule, I'm pretty sure if that was to exist it would've been "Shock and Awe" instead of what that turned out to be. I find it quite unlikely that there'd be two stratagems related to charging from LRCs. At which point they could stack, which admittedly would make for a (CP-)costly charge.

 

I agree.  I doubt there will be something to impact this -- UNLESS -- it is a relic item that can be used on the LRC.  Which would require a number of stratagem interactions, similar to Iron Hands.

[Ado]

Total speculation/wish listing but it would be sweet if crusader squads had a rule that meant they could disembark/charge after an LRC had moved. Would be some nice fluffy synergy and be powerful!

[Medjugorje]

with the rumored stratagems/possibilites there were some tactics - but we should talk about facts. Only GW-revealed stuff right now.

[gmaleron]

Total speculation/wish listing but it would be sweet if crusader squads had a rule that meant they could disembark/charge after an LRC had moved. Would be some nice fluffy synergy and be powerful!

Not at all trying to be a Debbie Downer when I State this but I feel like it's almost necessary. There's just so much that could go wrong having to get close and then Park and pray that you don't get blown up for a turn.

[MarshalMittermeier]

 

Total speculation/wish listing but it would be sweet if crusader squads had a rule that meant they could disembark/charge after an LRC had moved. Would be some nice fluffy synergy and be powerful!

Not at all trying to be a Debbie Downer when I State this but I feel like it's almost necessary. There's just so much that could go wrong having to get close and then Park and pray that you don't get blown up for a turn.

 

this is why i believe the LRC stratagem to be of lesser imortance. the boost to close combat damage via extra litany(ies) and knights of sigismund  pushes the idea of using naturaly fast units rather than strong ones . making a killy unit, such as a strong crusader squad,  killi-er is overkill; wont properly use the chapter buffs. making a fast unit into a fast AND killy unit is legitimately good.

 

i believe my future armies will feature a "support battalion" (i.e. battalion for command points) as wave 3, a "balanced force" as wave 2, and a fast force of jump packers  etc as wave 1.

[Medjugorje]

I think so too. At the Moment it would be better to field 3x10 Vanguards with Jump Packs and 2x10 Assault Squads with Jump Packs.

[Acebaur]

 

 

Total speculation/wish listing but it would be sweet if crusader squads had a rule that meant they could disembark/charge after an LRC had moved. Would be some nice fluffy synergy and be powerful!

Not at all trying to be a Debbie Downer when I State this but I feel like it's almost necessary. There's just so much that could go wrong having to get close and then Park and pray that you don't get blown up for a turn.

 

this is why i believe the LRC stratagem to be of lesser imortance. the boost to close combat damage via extra litany(ies) and knights of sigismund  pushes the idea of using naturaly fast units rather than strong ones . making a killy unit, such as a strong crusader squad,  killi-er is overkill; wont properly use the chapter buffs. making a fast unit into a fast AND killy unit is legitimately good.

 

i believe my future armies will feature a "support battalion" (i.e. battalion for command points) as wave 3, a "balanced force" as wave 2, and a fast force of jump packers  etc as wave 1.

 

 

 I don't consider a Crusader squad especially killy compared to units that are actually designed for assault. 

[Punchomatic]

Do y’all think the Night Lords stratagem, We Have Come For You, which makes units unable to fall back is similar to what we will get to make units stick in melee?