Tactical Terminators in 8th

[Gree]

I'm wondering if Tactical Terminators would be worth running in 8th. I'm using Imperial Fist tactics. It seems to be that with Bolter Discipline, Fist tactics, The Tactical Doctrine, and the various Fist strategems mean they can put out a good deal of firepower just from storm bolters. If my math is correct, a bare bones unit of Tactical Termies would be around 165pts.

 

Thoughts?

 

(Before anyone posts, yes I'm aware that Aggressors are very good with the new Codex, but I'm not talking about them)

Edited November 1, 2019 by Gree

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

In terms of points efficiency... 16 points per wound aint the worst.  My issue is that they are only reliable at blasting screens with BS 2 stormbolters.  That is all well and good but marines have so many chaff clearing options that are better or about the same.  Intercessors cost way less per wound (7.5) and can do as good a job at clearing screens and with ap -1 built in and can even chip wounds off of bigger things.  The only chapter that changes this calculus is whitescars because they have a 3d6 charge stratagem that turbo charges the efficiency of terminators because 3d6 charges are reliable.  

 

TLDR:  Semi competitive, maybe competitive(scars)

[Aothaine]

Terminators are a very good unit that I think people are still trying to figure out how to use. The one person I know using them effectively is Black Blow Fly. He uses them with Ultramarines and uses the Cataphractii. I would suggest you check in with him about how he uses them for sure! He has a blog on this forum: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/358123-bbf%E2%80%99s-ultramarine-log/

[SkimaskMohawk]

He got lucky on a charge off of deepstrike. Without the ability to reliably get the charge off terminators can't be considered "very good" if you're relying on them for melee output.

 

On top of that, they just compare very poorly to assault centurions. It's 195 for his chainfist+combi bolter loadout on 5 cataphractii, while 3 assault centurions are 156. You get 20 bolt shots from the terminators, 36 from the cents; 10 T4 2+ 4++ wounds vs 12 T5 2+ wounds; 16 WS4+ S8 -2 D2 attacks vs 13 WS3+ S10 -4 D3 attacks; no secondary ranged weapons vs flamers. If you're playing a chapter that takes advantage of hard-hitting melee units, there's no reason ever to take the cataphractii in that role.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wait one ‘lucky’ charge makes them bad LOL? You’re quite salty this morning aren’t you? Edited November 3, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Claws and Effect]

Wait one ‘lucky’ charge makes them bad LOL? You’re quite salty this morning aren’t you?

He actually spelled it out pretty clearly.

 

The only advantage the Cataphracti have over Assault Centurions is the 4+ invuln save.

 

Otherwise you're paying more for a less effective unit overall.

 

Terminators can be good in the right circumstances, but the main problem they have is that they occupy the Elites slot, which is overloaded with good options in the Marine Codex.

 

No matter what role you want them to fulfill, there is probably another option that does the same thing either cheaper or better, or both.

 

The buff to 2 wounds and the additional attack and Bolter Discipline helped, but it also buffed the units competing for the same role.

 

Terminators aren't bad in a vacuum, I just struggle to find a place for them in my lists when they have so much competition.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well for Ultramarines the ability to deepstrike them is really good in my opinion. 4++ is nothing to sneeze at either. Sure they have low movement but if they get into melee they can cover a lot of ground with consolidate and pile in moves. Assault Cents don’t work for my army and I don’t have the points to put them in an expensive transport. Terminators can be buffed to hit on 3+ for one CP in melee. So I think it really depends on your list... you can’t flat out say assault Cents are better or that Terminators are hawt garbage.

 

"Terminators can be good in the right circumstances, but the main problem they have is that they occupy the Elites slot, which is overloaded with good options in the Marine Codex."

 

It’s fairly easy to use two Battalions so finding an open slot for an elite choice isn’t a problem. I run a single Battalion btw.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[SkimaskMohawk]

Wait one ‘lucky’ charge makes them bad LOL? You’re quite salty this morning aren’t you?

Well what I actually said is that they can't be "very good" if your whole plan is to make a 9" charge with a command reroll. Calling me salty and conflating "bad" with "can't be 'very good'" comes off as extremely defensive.

 

If for example, you had said that in an ultramarines list assault centurions can't be leveraged like with white scars or raven guard, leaving terminators with chain fists as the more versatile option, then I would have agreed. But no, the other guy declared terminators as generically very good, and you rolled in with the normal trolly garbage that you say instead of actual discussion.

 

I think the biggest problem with terminators is that they're all essentially melee units; if they could take combi weapons and be a shooting platform and back line threat, then they'd be more flexible and appealing. Right now, you only take them if you want deepstriking fists... on terminators, because vanguard veterans also exist and are cheaper with full thss+pack.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Space Marines shoot rather well so I don’t see a unit being strongest in melee as a weakness. Combi Bolters that always rapid fire coupled with the tactical doctrine is pretty decent as well plus I wouldn’t waste points on a heavy weapon either... it’s not necessary.

[SkimaskMohawk]

It's a weakness since they're now pigeonholed into one role. Any chapter that wants to take a deepstriking, heavy hitting melee unit can take fully kitted vanguard cheaper. Being versatile in unit options in this marine book allows more potential for each supplement to build off of.

[jaxom]

I don't deep strike them and instead I use them as a mobile reserve and counterstrike if I'm playing my army more statically. They can move towards where the enemy is being aggressive and still get all their shots.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

And VV aren’t pigeonholed ?

[Happy-inquisitor]

He got lucky on a charge off of deepstrike. Without the ability to reliably get the charge off terminators can't be considered "very good" if you're relying on them for melee output.

 

On top of that, they just compare very poorly to assault centurions. It's 195 for his chainfist+combi bolter loadout on 5 cataphractii, while 3 assault centurions are 156. You get 20 bolt shots from the terminators, 36 from the cents; 10 T4 2+ 4++ wounds vs 12 T5 2+ wounds; 16 WS4+ S8 -2 D2 attacks vs 13 WS3+ S10 -4 D3 attacks; no secondary ranged weapons vs flamers. If you're playing a chapter that takes advantage of hard-hitting melee units, there's no reason ever to take the cataphractii in that role.

 

The OP is running Imperial Fists. The Assault Centurions would have to walk there at their extremely slow walking speed and the opponent would know exactly where they are coming from and how many turns they have before they need to care.

 

In some other chapters Assault Centurions are fantastic, they are very questionable in Imperial Fists. All the attacks in the world are no good if you never get there. Terminators have a built-in means to come out of reserve in an aggressive position, something that Imperial Fists otherwise tend to lack.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

He got lucky on a charge off of deepstrike. Without the ability to reliably get the charge off terminators can't be considered "very good" if you're relying on them for melee output.

 

On top of that, they just compare very poorly to assault centurions. It's 195 for his chainfist+combi bolter loadout on 5 cataphractii, while 3 assault centurions are 156. You get 20 bolt shots from the terminators, 36 from the cents; 10 T4 2+ 4++ wounds vs 12 T5 2+ wounds; 16 WS4+ S8 -2 D2 attacks vs 13 WS3+ S10 -4 D3 attacks; no secondary ranged weapons vs flamers. If you're playing a chapter that takes advantage of hard-hitting melee units, there's no reason ever to take the cataphractii in that role.

The OP is running Imperial Fists. The Assault Centurions would have to walk there at their extremely slow walking speed and the opponent would know exactly where they are coming from and how many turns they have before they need to care.

 

In some other chapters Assault Centurions are fantastic, they are very questionable in Imperial Fists. All the attacks in the world are no good if you never get there. Terminators have a built-in means to come out of reserve in an aggressive position, something that Imperial Fists otherwise tend to lack.

True.

 

But the problem still remains that they occupy an Elite slot in a Codex that has more Elites options than any other slot.

 

Like I said before, there is probably something that will do their job either cheaper or better.

 

I really want to like Terminators, but by the time I've taken the other things I want in my list I'm either out of slots or points for them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s not really a problem though and on top of that assault cents are an elite slot as well.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

He got lucky on a charge off of deepstrike. Without the ability to reliably get the charge off terminators can't be considered "very good" if you're relying on them for melee output.

 

On top of that, they just compare very poorly to assault centurions. It's 195 for his chainfist+combi bolter loadout on 5 cataphractii, while 3 assault centurions are 156. You get 20 bolt shots from the terminators, 36 from the cents; 10 T4 2+ 4++ wounds vs 12 T5 2+ wounds; 16 WS4+ S8 -2 D2 attacks vs 13 WS3+ S10 -4 D3 attacks; no secondary ranged weapons vs flamers. If you're playing a chapter that takes advantage of hard-hitting melee units, there's no reason ever to take the cataphractii in that role.

 

The OP is running Imperial Fists. The Assault Centurions would have to walk there at their extremely slow walking speed and the opponent would know exactly where they are coming from and how many turns they have before they need to care.

 

In some other chapters Assault Centurions are fantastic, they are very questionable in Imperial Fists. All the attacks in the world are no good if you never get there. Terminators have a built-in means to come out of reserve in an aggressive position, something that Imperial Fists otherwise tend to lack.

 

Vanguard are cheaper and do more damage. Honestly, company vets with plasma in a pod do more damage for less points and also don't even have to get into melee. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m going to focus my discussion here solely on how to make terminators work rather than compare them versus a myriad of other units. Take a look at the OP. Edited November 3, 2019 by Black Blow Fly

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you're viewing Tactical Terminators as a purely- or even predominantly- melee unit, you're doing it wrong. Fury of the First, Tactical Doctrine, and Bolter Discipline combine to give them exquisite stand off capabilities. Whereas most deep striking units want to land as close as possible to get within charge or rapid fire range, Tactical Terminators can land up to 24" out and still fire at full effectiveness; if you're an Ultramarine or Successor, it's even better. This gives you a dramatic amount of flexibility in where you land when deep striking; maybe you need to babysit an objective, or you land near a charge target but want to shoot something else.

 

Mileage may vary based on Chapter or army build, of course, but the power fists for me are a backup to the stormbolters with this new codex.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those are all excellent points Iron Father. /thumbsup

[SkimaskMohawk]

But if I wanted a deepstriking chaf clearing unit that's durable, then I'd pay for bolter inceptors. Four of them are the close enough to a unit of 5 terminators to call them the same cost and even with the terminators using fury of the first they do less against meq, geq and vehicles.

 

So if you look at terminators as a deepstrike melee unit, theyre more expensive than equivalent damaging units. If you look at them as a unit that isn't predominantly melee, they also get outclassed by other deepstrike shooting options. And that's not counting how assault centurions completely invalidate them for a third of the marine lists.

[Lemondish]

But if I wanted a deepstriking chaf clearing unit that's durable, then I'd pay for bolter inceptors. Four of them are the close enough to a unit of 5 terminators to call them the same cost and even with the terminators using fury of the first they do less against meq, geq and vehicles.

 

So if you look at terminators as a deepstrike melee unit, theyre more expensive than equivalent damaging units. If you look at them as a unit that isn't predominantly melee, they also get outclassed by other deepstrike shooting options. And that's not counting how assault centurions completely invalidate them for a third of the marine lists.

Okay. Good to know where you stand.

 

Now back to making Tactical Terminators work and the tricks you can pull with them. I like the idea of the Teleport Homer myself, if only to hit hard, lock something up in melee, all the while key the option to escape the following turn to camp an objective.

[Claws and Effect]

The teleport homer is a good point, and gives them an ability other units lack.

 

I should point out that my viewpoint is that of a Raven Guard player. I want to like them, but I have other options that work better for me and are more lore accurate for my Chapter.

 

Fists, Ultramarines, or Salamanders? Terminators absolutely have a place. Raven Guard not so much.

[Lemondish]

The teleport homer is a good point, and gives them an ability other units lack.

 

I should point out that my viewpoint is that of a Raven Guard player. I want to like them, but I have other options that work better for me and are more lore accurate for my Chapter.

 

Fists, Ultramarines, or Salamanders? Terminators absolutely have a place. Raven Guard not so much.

 

Agreed - there are tools in place that make the unique aspects of Terminators not so unique for RG units, so that value kind of falls off a bit. 

 

For almost everyone else, they seem pretty decent. IH ones can bring some nice heavy weapon options as well. 

 

As an aside, I do agree that the idea that they are an elite choice in an army swimming with elite choices means nothing in 8th edition. Who is really running out of force org slots at this point? 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Lemondish

[Lord Blackwood]

 

But if I wanted a deepstriking chaf clearing unit that's durable, then I'd pay for bolter inceptors. Four of them are the close enough to a unit of 5 terminators to call them the same cost and even with the terminators using fury of the first they do less against meq, geq and vehicles.

 

So if you look at terminators as a deepstrike melee unit, theyre more expensive than equivalent damaging units. If you look at them as a unit that isn't predominantly melee, they also get outclassed by other deepstrike shooting options. And that's not counting how assault centurions completely invalidate them for a third of the marine lists.

Okay. Good to know where you stand.

 

Now back to making Tactical Terminators work and the tricks you can pull with them.

 

 

I'm wondering if Tactical Terminators would be worth running in 8th. 

 

I think that you  were dismissive of this mans position when he is trying to address the actual question , which is not exactly the question that you restated. 

 

I personally do not rate terminators very high this edition despite owning more than  40 of them.  

I think the question I  would ask is what sort of armies are your regular opponents ? 

What does yer local meta look like in  terms of army composition? 

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I play in a large metro area at several different FLGS and GW shops. I can run up against anything so I build generalist army lists. The terminators are working for me and I don’t find them over costed.